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Monday, June 26, 2006

Comment of the Day

RobRoy's over at DovBear, who now put it up as a post. Excerpt:
A parent I know with a son in a "black hat" mesivta told me that one day, the menahel comes into the office, where there's a big mess because, I believe, some of the hanhola had a breakfast meeting, and he bellows "I NEED A GOY TO COME AND CLEAN THIS MESS UP!"

The fact of the matter is that like most yeshivas, this one's maintenance staff was totally comprised of non-Jews --but he did not say "I needs a janitor," or "I need a custodian" or "I need a maintenance man" -- he said "I NEED A GOY".

The obvious implication of his wording being that even though frum Yidden made the big mess, their neshamas are too holy, refined and pure to clean it up, and besides that, it would be "bittul Torah" -- precious time that could be spent teaching or learning Torah, wasted doing such menial chores.
Oy. Read the whole thing.

18 comments:

  1. Ezzie - I don't read DovBear's blog - or others whose complete raison d'etre is to speak loshon hara/kvetch and complain about how bad other Jews are. Yes, I complain on my blog about the Israeli government, but that is to try and perhaps convince others to vote differently the next time there is an election. What possible good comes from this type of post?

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  2. wbm, I actually agree with you, and it is also why I stopped reading DovBear's blog. I have no problem reading posts about fellow Jews when it's meant to help the people, or because some-one(s) in danger if it isn't reported, but this kind of petty Jew bashing really doesn't have any place any-where.
    -OC

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  3. I don't read DovBear often either because his blog really isn't my speed. But, the attitude conveyed by this statement from a poster (which I do believe since I've seen similiar myself and since "goytah" is a word used by many for cleaning lady), is an attitude that ALL parents need to be aware of.

    Even if this attitude is not being taught in your home, it might be being taught in your children's school.

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  4. He obviously said "goy" because all the maintenance people in the place are goyim, not because he feels that Jews are too holy. Please.

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  5. WBM, OC - While I don't like much of the charedi-bashing on many blogs, I thought that the importance of this post was the attitude it shows people having towards non-Jews. I've heard people say things like this many times, and it always troubles me.

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  6. Yes, but the beginning of this little tale is very telling. "A parent I know.." This story is second-hand, at best. I don't know. I mean, it's your call, but it's not like this person was speaking from personal experience.
    -OC

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  7. I think they're just giving the recent example in their mind. I've heard people do it, but I can't (offhand) remember specific details.

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  8. Lakewood Yid-Please. You can't be serious. It is inappropriate at best for a head of a school to refer to non Jews in a deragatory manner.

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  9. LY - When you are properly following ALL the mitzvos of the Torah, we'll talk about how we as a NATION are greater.

    Until then, and even then, as individuals we should be treating everybody with proper respect.

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  10. LY-We have different jobs in this world, it's not a matter of superiority.

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  11. LY - Only AFTER repeating a number of times that we must follow all of Hashem's commandments does it say that Pasuk.

    And look at how the Ramban understands it: Not that we're somehow superior, but that the "Amei Ha'aretz" (nations of the world) will praise us as being the greatest nation. Putting them down obviously does not accomplish that, and neither does thinking we're above.

    In fact, none of the Meforshim I saw explain it as Jews somehow being "better" than Gentiles. (Go learn some Torah before trying to teach it.)

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  12. Ezzie - I don't read DovBear's blog - or others whose complete raison d'etre is to speak loshon hara/kvetch and complain about how bad other Jews are. Yes, I complain on my blog about the Israeli government, but that is to try and perhaps convince others to vote differently the next time there is an election. What possible good comes from this type of post?

    Oh please. First bashing Jews isn't my reason for existing. What a horrible and unsubstantiated thing to say about me! If you haven't noticed I spend a fair amount of time defending Jews from people like Cross Currents. And I also learn Torah, write about politics and more. As Ezzie himself says, I am "simply entertaining"

    Second, when I do post things that reflect badly on Jews, I assure you my purpose isn't to embaress us! When a mashgiach stands up in front of his yeshivah and delivers a musar shmooze is it his goal to humiliate his audience? While, I certainly wouldn't compare my self to a mashgiach, when I do post the sort of items you disdain, I assure you that I, too, am not tryin to hurt anyones feelings, or to make Jews look bad. Rather, like you with your anti-Israel posts, I am hoping that in my small way I am encouraging people to improve.

    WBM I am really hurt by what you said; Ezzie, if you can get permission to give me this commenters email address, I would love to have it. When people misunderstand me and my blog so fundementally it hurts, and I'd like very much to set the recond straight.

    Ezzie, if you like, post this on your own blog, too.

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  13. wbm, I actually agree with you, and it is also why I stopped reading DovBear's blog. I have no problem reading posts about fellow Jews when it's meant to help the people, or because some-one(s) in danger if it isn't reported, but this kind of petty Jew bashing really doesn't have any place any-where.

    OC it does have a place somewhere. It has a place on ana nonymous blog where people can, in the privacy of their own home, read about how some Jews behave and resolve not to imitate them. If I were to go over to the principle and tell him that he had behaved badly toward his janitor, he wouldn't listen, but if he sees himself on my blog perhaps he'll take it to heart. And, more likely, their are decent well-meaning people who read that post today who, for the first time, understand how ugly that kind of behavior is. Sometimes even good people can miss the obvious. ("To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle" -- Geroge Orwell) A blog like mine helps them see it.

    Ezzie, you are welcome to post this as well, and if yuou can get permission to share OC's email adress with me, I'd be very greatful

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  14. While I don't like much of the charedi-bashing on many blogs

    I don't like the MO (and left of that) bashing on many blogs, (chief among them: Cross Currents)

    I think the lefties get attacked far more often online. If I thought the haredim were more often victoms, I'd defend them. It's how I am. I always side with the underdog.

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  15. DB - The comment I made about not liking charedi-bashing was simply because that was the subject at hand. I don't like MO-bashing, left-bashing, or right-bashing either. I prefer constructive posts, period. I thought yours today fell into that category, which is all I was trying to say in that comment.

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  16. Here's the thing, even if one believes that we, as individuals are superior (as opposed to as a nationalistic whole, which is how *I* was always taught), then it behoves us to act that way.

    A superior person has no need to use langauge that makes others feel deminished.

    How would you like it if your boss refered to you as "the Jew"?

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  17. DB - The comment I made about not liking charedi-bashing was simply because that was the subject at hand. I don't like MO-bashing, left-bashing, or right-bashing either. I prefer constructive posts, period. I thought yours today fell into that category, which is all I was trying to say in that comment.

    That's fine now help me get through to WBM and OC

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  18. I prefer to be called R' Yid.

    Lakewood Yid will do fine.


    And the "goy" probably would be happier with a name or title, not "goy".

    "Greatest" nation is exactly as it sounds. When we are properly following Torah U'Mitzvos and acting with proper Derech Eretz, the Amei Ha'aretz will recognize that we are the world's greatest nation.

    This actually has happened to some extent at different points in history.

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