Two Orthodox Jewish men have come forward to say they were molested by a Brooklyn counselor who was indicted in the 1980s for sexually abusing kids but skipped to Israel before he could be prosecuted.Let's let a child molester go free because it "might ruin a shidduch"?! Sadly, I know all too well that this happens consistently. A child molester I know of is free today because nobody was willing to testify against him, for the same reasons. He then went and molested even more children, none of whom had parents who had them testify.
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Retired Detective Salvator Catalfumo said the investigation "began with an anonymous caller who said there was a rabbi living on the street molesting children.
"It was very difficult pursing this case," he recalled. "The Hasidic community wanted no part of this. We were told that if a Hasidic kid was molested, no parent would allow their daughter to [marry him]."
All too often, in these cases, these molested children grow up and molest others. In some cases, those who are molested are never able to seek proper treatment, because their family is too concerned with their future shidduch, and they end up with ruined marriages [sometimes molesting others even while they are married].
The selfishness of those who won't let their children testify for the sole reason of "ruining shidduchim" is disgusting. They are in a very difficult situation, and I could understand not wanting to testify for other reasons. But because of your child's shidduch you'll allow countless people's lives to be ruined!? Disgusting.
Just when I thought I couldn't become any more disgusted by the shidduch system ... it's appalling. Or maybe it's not "the system" that's appalling so much as it is "the values" of those who typically participate in it. I've actually read that the tablecloth one's mother uses and whether or not she is a (plate) stacker matter significantly in matters of matrimony! Incredible. Absolutely incredible.
ReplyDeleteAs for those who have been molested or have suffered other kinds of trauma, it is ridiculous to think a "good shidduch" would be turned away by trauma. And those parents who think they are doing their children a favor by finding them a stony-hearted "good" shidduch who could never understand the pain of a hurting heart should be flogged or something.
Its tough. You are so right, but the truth is this kid has suffered enough. If you think saying he was molested will prevent him from future happiness with a wife, what would you do? Scarice your own child?
ReplyDeleteLiorah - I'm not sure if it's skewed values that have ruined the system, or a terrible system that's skewing people's values, or a bit of both. Probably the latter.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's that they want "stony-hearted" people, but that they feel nobody will want to date someone who has been molested.
There is some validity to this, but it misses the point: By doing this, it will cause them to have a greater likelihood of being in a marriage where the other person is not equipped to handle their issues. That's far worse, and hurtful not only to them, but to whomever they marry, and anyone else affected by that.
Cellar Door - It's rough, but that idea really misses the point. Should a dozen or more other people suffer so this one can have a marriage? Furthermore, by doing this, the person is usually stopped from getting the help they need to recover. This isn't good for them or the supposed marriage.
When you are dating somone, you always want to know there background regarding their family friends and affiliations. Unfortunately for someone who has been molested there is going to be something psychologicaly wrong with the person as a result that is going to need therapy. Although parents or a person may be scared about a future problems, they are going to exist no matter what and if it doesn't affect a shidduch it will effect a marriage. One has to decide which way they are better off. In my opinion, one is better off coming out in the open and not being afraid and getting the therapy they need before the problems can effect other people.
ReplyDeleteEz: Lets say they did get help for this person, I dont even know if its the parents job to decide to go public with the issue. Its the person who was molested. And yes I understand the point you are making, however its not so clear to the person whose life is affected to go public with damaging info to his or her name. I dont disagree that helping others is the right thing to do. (I like the blog, good to see some KGHers representing with a major blog.)
ReplyDeleteYes, I can see your point about it not necessarily being the parents right to decide whether or not to go public with such information. It's a hard call.
ReplyDeletebasically you're telling kids who have suffered so much already that they are going to have suffer more for something that someone else did to them, where's the justice or morality in that?
ReplyDeleteEzzie, being that I study this stuff, I would like to clarify that there is no substantial research to date that states that children who are mollested are more likely to mollest as adults than those that aren't. I'm sorry, but your claim is more pop-psychology than it is substantiated by quantitative and/or qualitative data. Yes, they're slightly more at risk, but not significantly more so to make the claim All too often, in these cases, these molested children grow up and molest others.
ReplyDeleteThis is disgusting, and I totally agree with the rest of what you're saying, but that statement really hasn't been proven to be true in any means.
-OC
basically you're telling kids who have suffered so much already that they are going to have suffer more for something that someone else did to them, where's the justice or morality in that?
ReplyDeleteWho said they should suffer more? They should suffer less, by being helped and not having their issues silenced and ignored. Furthermore, it will save countless others their fate.
Ezzie, being that I study this stuff, I would like to clarify that there is no substantial research to date that states that children who are mollested are more likely to mollest as adults than those that aren't. I'm sorry, but your claim is more pop-psychology than it is substantiated by quantitative and/or qualitative data. Yes, they're slightly more at risk, but not significantly more so to make the claim All too often, in these cases, these molested children grow up and molest others.
ReplyDeleteTo date, every single person I know who molested someone was himself molested. It's anecdotal evidence, yes, but there really aren't enough studies to prove one way or the other because most people don't want to discuss it.
And I'm talking about at least 4 cases, if not 6 (two who were molested I'm not certain if they molested others or not, though there are rumors to that effect). 4/4 is a high percentage. Even 4/6 is.
Ez: Lets say they did get help for this person, I dont even know if its the parents job to decide to go public with the issue. Its the person who was molested. And yes I understand the point you are making, however its not so clear to the person whose life is affected to go public with damaging info to his or her name. I dont disagree that helping others is the right thing to do. (I like the blog, good to see some KGHers representing with a major blog.)
ReplyDeleteKGH representing! :) [BeyondBT is bigger than SerandEz...]
No, I do understand your point, and that issue. I also think that if the person doesn't wish to do so, they shouldn't be pressured into doing so. What bothers me is the discouragement placed on them by parents who are concerned solely with the shidduchim of the child - or, worse, the child's siblings.
I also think that many would gain by confronting their abusers, but that's my own guess and professionals would know better.
When I was in school, we had a frum child-abuse advocacy lawyer come speak to us, and I was horrified to hear of how many cases she couldn't end up prosecuting because the families didn't want their "good name" affected (for shidduchim, schools, etc.). It literally made me sick, and it still does.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that kids who don't want to testify should be forced, but I think they should be encouraged. And regardless of whether they ever see the inside of a courtroom they should DEFINITELY have therapy, and a heck of a lot of it.
FWQ & Scraps - Great comments.
ReplyDeleteI've actually read that the tablecloth one's mother uses and whether or not she is a (plate) stacker matter significantly in matters of matrimony!
ReplyDeleteWhat is the proper method of storing plates, if I may be so bold to ask? Sounds like my kids are off the list already!
The more I hear, the less I want any part of the world of formal shidduchim for my children anyhow (but thank G-d that's a long ways off).
Add this one to your lists people:
ReplyDeleteI just heard this past Saturday night that a close friend of mine's parents want to sell their house. This family from Brooklyn is looking to move into their house, and although there are like four or five other houses on the market in that particular neighborhood, the family specifically wants their house. His parents did a little digging and they found out that the reason this family wants their house is because they're surrounded on all sides by rich neighbors and their cul-de-sac has a really rich family that's like really big in the community. So this Brooklyn family believes it'll help their kids get a better shidduch because living in that corner of the neighborhood will bring them up in the social ladder. I don't think I've ever heard of a more krum logic in my life. What a bunch of truly confused Jews.
And I believe Scraps got it right. A HECK of a lot of therapy. However, what annoys me is when someone actually goes and gets help, and the shrink tells them to do certain things, like publicly address their issues. But the parents with all their wisdom (and sometimes their "all-knowing" Rabbeim) tell them another method of dealing with their problems, that includes never ever ever talking about the fact they were molested and/or molested others. So now you got parents who are totally fine with ignoring what has happened because they did send their kid to therapy (or just to an out of town yeshiva instead)and then the kid has gained absolutely nothing. And I don't know whether kids who were molested necessarily are going to molest others, but I do know of cases where molestation was basically passed down from a couple of generations ago like a mesorah (l'havdil elef havdolos). So one thing we should learn from our modern, educated society, is that it's ok to address your problems. We're not as tough as our grandparents generation. When we go through something traumatic, we need therapy. And everyone deserves it and should not have to worry about getting married because of it.
I stack at the table....sue me.
ReplyDeleteWhen financial issues are addressed, the chorus is "bitachon, bitachon, bitachon."
ReplyDeleteI wish that the same chorus could be heard regarding shidduchim: have some bitachon. There is a match out there for each person, even if the person faced unusual challenges, even if the person didn't go to the "right" schools, even if the families didn't do the "right" things.
The right shidduch might not come with the "proper" yichus and the proper family. The right shidduch might not come in the right shell. The right shidduch might not come from the right money. But, ultimately, the right shidduch is the right shidduch (even if that spouse shows up late).
So, seek the help you need and (when it comes to criminal acts like molestation) remember that others need protected too, and that your good name is not the only name needing protection.
You know what REALLY is bothering me about this quote? The idea that because someone was MOLESTED, no one will ever want him. I mean, come on. What century are we living in? I think it's an extremely ignorant statement, and the idea that there are people truly believing in something like that bothers me a great deal. What's worse is thinking "What if they are right?" What if many people ARE indeed so ignorant that they will blame the victim for being molested and DO see it as something dishonorable? If that's indeed the case, well, clearly somebody is doing something wrong.
ReplyDeleteChana - it's talking about clearing plates. Apparently, one is supposed to take each one back to the kitchen individually and clean it, not take (say) 4 at once by pushing the garbage of 3 onto the fourth and carrying them all together.
ReplyDeleteUgh.
Mordy - I think I'm going to throw up about the first part of that comment... and amen on the second.
Rea - Thanks man. :)
Sephardi Lady - Perfect comment. Perfect.
Irina - That's another great point, and worthy of a post.
where the other person is not equipped to handle their issues
ReplyDeletethat's a much better way of saying what I meant
Liorah - I got where you were going. ;)
ReplyDeleteEzzie - LOL. Thanks for the clarification. Seems my kids would be back on the list, IF I would let them on.
ReplyDeleteMy house isn't big enough to have a formal dining room that's completely separate from the kitchen, so the plates just get set on the counter by the garbage can. I feel so couth! But yet... not having a separate dining room? Surely that's a shanda in its own right...
Sick,sick,sick. You didn't mention the fact that once someone goes for therapy, their shidduch chances are a heck of a lot slimmer anyway. AHHHHH.
ReplyDeleteChana - Ha! We have our garbage in the same room as the meal, so we do it right in front of everyone. :)
ReplyDeleteKM - Well, I hinted to it when I talked about how they're discouraged from doing anything about it... but you're right, that's another point. And it is sick.
From the point of view of somebody who's been through nasty crap, and married somebody who's been through worse:
ReplyDeleteThe victim shouldn't be forced into doing anything, but should definitely be encouraged to fight back. A child or teenager can't do this on their own, and any parent who really cares should give them full support to take action. Sometimes encouragement will even border on pressure, because it's hard for a victim to believe they can fight back. But have you ever heard of anybody who regretted it? I WISH my parents had made a bigger fuss, in the minor situations I experienced. It would have been embarrassing, but would have validated my feelings of violation, anger, and betrayal.
On marrying somebody with abuse issues: If that factor turns away a potential mate, that mate isn't suitable. I would go so far as to say that mate isn't suitable even for somebody without abuse issues, because there's no guarantee the family won't be touched by abuse or other tragedy in the future. You want a perfect little world, you're not gonna find it on this planet.
Ezzie, actually, a lot of studies have been done on this subject, and they have all said what I am telling you. Anectodal evidence is NOT qualitative or quantitative evidence.
ReplyDeleteI am an advocate for children and sexually abused people. I have been for 3 years now. I want to see these animals who abuse children in this way put behind bars for life, but I will not say something that isn't true just to garner more support.
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. All available evidence and studies show that those who are mollested are at slightly more, but not significantly more, risk to sexually abuse others than those that have not been mollested.
-OC
Very nice post.
ReplyDeleteOne point of logic though - while you're arguing that "all too often" molested children end up becoming molesters, your anecdotal evidence is only that many molesters were once molested children. The two are entirely different arguments. To wit, all nickels are coins, but not all coins are nickels.
Josh - Yes and no. It is a logical deduction when between 4 and 6 people I know who were molested all molested others; however, it's the flaw of anecdotal evidence (which is what OC is rightfully pointing out) in that perhaps I happen to know the small percentage who did so.
ReplyDeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteI was just reading through the comments and saw the "how do you clear the tablecloth on Shabbos" as something to look for in a shiduch. I read something similar once regarding what "type" of tablecloth used.
What I was seriously wondering was:
Does anyone actually KNOW anyone who was looking for a shiduch and had to meet the "tablecloth" (or other ridiculous) criteria? I personally do not know anyone who had to do that.
My point being is that I really wonder if it really happens and if it does, how common is it?
I have a feeling that it is quite rare.
Avrom - I've always wondered the same. However, I've been asked some ridiculous questions about people we know that are along those lines.
ReplyDeleteIt is a logical deduction when between 4 and 6 people I know who were molested all molested others;
ReplyDeleteOK, this was different than your original argument of To date, every single person I know who molested someone was himself molested., but would be a premise to support your contention (leaving aside OCh's objection, as you mentioned). Logical objection retracted. :-)
Josh - True. :)
ReplyDeleteAvrom-I used to wonder the same things until someone asked them about a lady I suggested (not tablecloths, but dress size-and, no, not a simple question of slim or average, but an actual size).
ReplyDeleteSo, while these things seem like urban legend, the legends didn't develop out of thin air!
Good conversation on an important topic.
ReplyDeleteA few comments from someone who has dealt with a similar issue:
1) There are ways for a victim to testify or give evidence while being shielded from too much publicity. This is especially true for minors.
2) Keeping secrets such as these distorts the entire family structure and relationships. I have seen this again and again, with secrets including various mental/physical ailments and other financial/social/human but somehow "shameful" situations.
And as we have seen from several recent episodes, the corrosion and distortion can extend across an entire community when a public figure's misdeeds are covered up.
3) It's increasingly clear that for many, leaving these stifling social frameworks is an essential, healthy step - for growth in ruchniyus, and for normal mental balance and health.
Anonymous - Thank you very much. I really appreciate your comments.
ReplyDeletei'm not a stacker, i just think it's gross... annoys my husband though because he just likes to get it over with.
ReplyDeletethe tablecloth business is true, sick but true. we were once discussing the issue with our former rabbi, who at the time had almost shidduch age daughters. his reaction? "if someone cares so much about the tablecloth, so much so that it would interfere with a great shidduch, then i wouldn't want my daughter to marry into such a stupid family!"
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