My wife reminded me of an incident from three years ago. I was teaching English at a right wing Charedi High School. Towards the end of the year, I decide to confront one of my students. He was 17, a high school junior, of below average intelligence and no drive to succeed. Not everyone is blessed with intelligence. That is fine. What annoyed me is the fact that he put in ZERO effort. I had tried everything to engage him in his school work, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, meetings with parents, meetings with the Menahel, etc."(Blank stare) Why wouldn't a father in law want to support a learning boy?" Wow, does that speak volumes. Is that the expectation that students are taught to expect? I certainly hope this is not coming from rabbeim, so where is it coming from? And why are people, instead of addressing the issue as DAG did, allowing this skewed perception to become reality? This garbage is so frustrating it makes me sick.
I finally asked him,"Dovid, you lack even the most basic English skills. You can't write or even speak in coherent English sentences. What do you plan to do with your life?"He had never contemplated the idea that perhaps he didn't have the skills needed to learn in Kollel OR the idea that a prospective father in law, wouldn't or even couldn't, support him in Kollel.
Dovid: "I'll learn in Kollel."
Dag: "And who will support you?"
Dovid: "My Father In Law."
Dag: "What if your father in law doesn't want to support you."
Dovid: "(Blank stare) Why wouldn't a father in law want to support a learning boy?"
Sad.
Friday, July 07, 2006
Welcome to the Real World
I think this post by DAG sums up one of the most serious problems facing Orthodox Jewry today:
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Ezzie, are you really so concerned with people of below average intelligence "depending" on kollel, or are you pleased with yourself that you'll be working in a "top" accounting firm this September, instead of learning? How about you get off your high horse?
ReplyDeleteeveryone learning in kollel is a new american fad of ths generation.
ReplyDeleteeven in the immediate past gen.
only the the real illuyim were encouraged to stay in the kollel. the rest were encouraged by the rabbeim to go out and get jobs.
What is your source for the "illuyim" comment. Or are you just pontificating?
ReplyDelete"you lack even the most basic English skills. You can't write or even speak in coherent English sentences. What do you plan to do with your life?"
ReplyDeletewhat kind of a teacher says that to a student?
Don't mean to turn this into a bashing session, but everyone is entitled to live the life they want to lead. He wants to learn in Kollel, let him. Big deal. He wants to be supported, then iy''H he'll find a girl who's father is willing to support.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't "garbage", it's a valid lifestyle, even if it's not the one you chose to lead.
That's such an abberation!
ReplyDeleteThose that can't function in the real world- learn in Kollel???
The guy needs to get basic life skills and only then should he go and learn.
Learning Torah is NOT a cop-out!!!
It is the purest, most idealistic lifestyle there is and it really bothers me that someone just thinks, 'since I can't do anything else- I might as well go to Kollel'.
if he's a good actor, and good looking he probably will be.
ReplyDeleteHe's may not be as unrealitic as he sounds.
Oh, and another thing- correct me if I'm wrong, but the "real world" is Torah. The world exists because of it, but you know that, because it's basic.
ReplyDeleteAnd did he ever think about what's going to happen when kollel ends - very, very few learn in kollel forever, and of those, I can't say for sure, but I assume that their father-in-laws don't support them forever. At some point this kid is going to have to wake up, and it sounds like it's going to be a rude awakening.
ReplyDeleteGood for DAG for at least attempting to lead this kid to think about a future.
kollel mama,
ReplyDeleteIt is a valid lifestyle if you are qualified to dedicate your like in kollel. IT IS A PRIVELAGE TO LEARN IN KOLLEL. NOT A BACKUP. So, this kid who thinks he will get a free ride, and demeans the real value of kollel is reflective of a cultural move to kollel and NOT a religious or pious dedication to it.
I think many of us here value kollel and think its a tremendous opportunity to have the passion and skills to live that life. It is not for everyone, especially those who think that they can get a free ride from it.
KollelMama,
ReplyDeleteBy the way, the "real world" is incorporating Torah into our every day lives.
Most are not meant to sit in the academic halls of Torah as we mature, unless you are part of a special group of individuals who will become our talmidei chachamim.
We don't need more educators who mess up our kids because they wanted a free ride through life being supported by in laws.
I think this story is one piece of the puzzle in one of the most disgraceful facts I've ever seen: After the African-American community, the Charedi Jewish community has the biggest number of people on welfare in New York State.
ReplyDeleteWith all our emphasis on education, with the low number of single-parent homes, etc. etc. etc. We're still on the dole! It's time to start bootstraping.
JH & Kasamba, I totally agree.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, I don't know who is feeding this to the kids out there. Wish I knew.
1st Anon. - Just curious as to why Ezzie cannot exhibit both concern for others and hapiness for himself at the same time. Also, for many it's not "instead of learing" rather it is instead of learning for a living.
ReplyDeleteKollel MaMa - In theory, would you be willing to support a boy with such an outlook in kollel?
I've spent manny years in and around some of the larger institutions of learning and can tell you w/ that this line of thinking is coming directly from rabbeim and roshei yeshiva. The only time that you will ever hear different is in a one on one conversation.
Almost forgot: Ezzie, when did you get a horse?
Another aspect of this story that noone seems to touch upon is what happens to a girl whose father cannot afford to support his son-in-law in learning? Can she get married too - or are there too many boys who would reject her out of hand because she does not come from a rich family (perhaps because she is one of many - ken yirbu - in a family where the father learns...)
ReplyDeleteWBM - Forgive me if this comes across as a little cold.
ReplyDeleteYour complaint is circular; You reap what you sow. If her family is in no position to take care of a married couple then the young lady needs to find a young man who can take care of himself. It may be easier to find a person who does not need to be supported 100% amongst those who do not want to be supported 100%.
WestBankMama-You touch upon a real problem. I addressed it not too long ago on my blog here.
ReplyDeleteOf course, "G" makes my point very succintely right below your comment.
I think the saddest thing is that our boys are not expected to support families by their parents, their teachers, or even the girls who will be their future wives.
It used to be a source of pride to support a family. Now a man who does so (like my man :) ) is looked at like an anomoly.
Anon1 - Wow. That's more disgusting than some of the hate mail I got when I got published last year (and those were pretty bad). Who said I'm working instead of learning? Do you know me at all? Clearly not.
ReplyDeleteAnon2 - Very true.
Anon3 - My FIL learned under R' Hutner, who selected a handful of his students to stay in learning while sending the rest to learn professions - including my FIL, though he is a brilliant man in his own right. Anon2 is correct; you can ask other people if you want more examples of this.
Menachem - A good one who is concerned with his student's welfare. I am far more appreciative of the teachers who told me what my flaws were than the ones who went on and on about how smart I was.
KM - But that's the point. It's not a valid lifestyle when you're doing it for the wrong reasons, and the approach is completely wrong. And why should people be relying on rich fathers-in-law? I find that in particular pretty disturbing.
Basically, I agree with Kasamba, JH, and G on this one.
Kasamaba - Well put.
Pragmatician - Possibly. But it's still sick.
KM - Nobody disagrees with that. But Torah is not just learning it, but practicing it day to day.
Shoshana - Very true. My SIL wrote a very good comment about that, which I linked to in the comments a few posts down. (My brother learns full-time.)
JH - Amen, and amen.
Jake - That's really sad. The idea of a "thriving" Orthodox community is no longer true, and Sephardi Lady (Orthonomics) has a wonderful post about the house of cards that will topple in the next generation.
Sara - I wish I knew as well, though I have an idea...
G - Exactly. Though as a note, KM's husband's has a different outlook on it, from what I understand.
That it comes from rabbeim in public is not altogether surprising - it's toeing to the party line that's expected. I don't understand why public and private conversations are so often contradictory. It's sickening.
And I've always had a horse!
WBM - Heh. Well put.
G - I think that was WBM's point.
Sephardi Lady - You have no idea... Some old friends are thrown off by the idea that I'm actually about to start work. It's kind of sad that it is such a culture shock.
what is going to happen to the next generation of children..whose parents have been totally supported...I don't think Zaidy and/or great grandparents have the financial ability to keep all the generations solvent if no one chooses to go out and work...and what about the wives who take it upon themselves to support their husbands...with big families and all that entails...what happened to the kesuba?? shall it be rewritten...or the joke that I once heard said: it says b'zayas apecha tochal lechem not b'zayas your fatherinlaw tochal lechem.
ReplyDeleteAnon (bubbyt, I saw on Jewboy's post) - Exactly. That is the point of Orthonomics' post, which I will try to get a link for after Shabbos...
ReplyDeleteIf the kid can't write or speak coherently, what girl is gonna want to marry him? Dinner table conversation is kinda important, IMO.
ReplyDeleteI agree... very frustrating situation with so many factors, including those mentioned, such as not everyone is cut out sit and learn in Kollel and it's never a given that someone will find wealthy in-laws willing to support them.
ReplyDeleteWhy is working (even part time) not considered? Or considered 'not good enough' or for the less Yeshivish?
Yes, learning is important, Torah is why we are here but perhaps people would be more supportive of younger guys learning if those boys made some sort of effort to help themselves. (It can be done! I know quite a few people learning full time but also studying either by correspondance or part time.)
Actually, the one who made the "instead" of comment knows you fairly well. And he sees that you did not come to seder/shiur for a good portion of the year. I mean, I should be don lcaf zechus that you learnt in your aparment, but we all know what "learning in the apartment" =sleeping on the couch. Please don't respond with the "maybe for you it does" esque comments.
ReplyDeleteAnon - You're right, I wasn't planning on coming to seder/shiur this year. I fail to see what relevance that has to anything. Either you think you're being funny, when you're simply being obnoxious, or you're bring serious, which means you actually don't know me as you claim to.
ReplyDeleteIf you have something to say to me, and actually "know me fairly well", then you'd know that you could call me, e-mail me, or come by my apartment to tell me - not tell me to "get off my high horse" as an anonymous commenter on a blog.
And if you're who I think you may be... okay, it's a little funny. But mostly not.
"wasnt planning on coming to seder this year"? The assertion that working doesnt supplant learning, assumes that learning supplements working. how do you plan on "learning while working" if you didn't learn when you were not working?
ReplyDeleteHuh?
ReplyDeleteThe assertion that working doesnt supplant learning, assumes that learning supplements working.
That's incorrect. That is your assertion, but I disagree.
how do you plan on "learning while working" if you didn't learn when you were not working?
Huh? I did learn. And who says I plan on "learning while working"?
I also fail to see how any of this has relevance to the post or the comments within.
ReplyDeleteWHOAAA....let's backtrack here.Firstly, what Kasamba said, basically sums it up. I read the post and seemed to misunderstand the point. When I read it a second time, slowly (to my husband) I realized what the point was. I didn't delete my post, because I felt I had a valid point anyway.
ReplyDeleteJH-you are 100% right. That's all I can say.
g-no way!
Sarah, while it may be true that in Europe, the guys were encouraged to work, we're talking about a totally different situation. While I have no opposition to working, I asked my husband if this was true. He said that in those days, there weren't so many bad influences out of the home, if a guy went to open a store or whatever it was he chose to do. The media consisted of a radio, and even those were rare. Apparently, R'Ahron Kotler advised many men to now stay in Kollel, not because he feels everyone should be learning, but because it kept them in a seviva that is good for them.
I know that is probably really controversial and grating on all your nerves. I didn't say it. He did.
I don't necessarily agree with it, and it can be debated from today until forever. BUT, that is why the guys are encouraged to learn in kollel. You have to understand where they come from. Believe me, my husband did not go to a school that was considered yeshivish in any sense of the word. He just realized that's why all these boys are talking kollel,kollel,kollel.
One more point, and then I'm finished. What exactly is your issue with having a couple be supported? Why do you really care if they take care of themselves or someone takes care of them? I just don't see why it matters and is a point of major frustration to you.
KM - Good comment, thanks.
ReplyDeleteSarah, while it may be true that in Europe, the guys were encouraged to work, we're talking about a totally different situation. While I have no opposition to working, I asked my husband if this was true. He said that in those days, there weren't so many bad influences out of the home, if a guy went to open a store or whatever it was he chose to do. The media consisted of a radio, and even those were rare. Apparently, R'Ahron Kotler advised many men to now stay in Kollel, not because he feels everyone should be learning, but because it kept them in a seviva that is good for them.
R' Aharon encouraged more people to stay in learning because of the Holocaust. The number of people who were learning had dropped to almost nil with the destruction of the yeshivos, so he encouraged as many people as possible to go to yeshiva. Many people feel that his suggestion was for that particular period, and he never intended it to be as it is now, and many people simply disagree with the approach to begin with.
One can surround themselves with a better environment without learning full-time; furthermore, whether or not one should be completely disengaged of the society around them is a matter of contention.
BUT, that is why the guys are encouraged to learn in kollel. You have to understand where they come from. Believe me, my husband did not go to a school that was considered yeshivish in any sense of the word. He just realized that's why all these boys are talking kollel,kollel,kollel.
I think the people here *do* understand where the idea of kollel comes from - and it's how it has been twisted by so many, such as the boy in the post, that troubles everyone.
What exactly is your issue with having a couple be supported? Why do you really care if they take care of themselves or someone takes care of them? I just don't see why it matters and is a point of major frustration to you.
One could have issues with a couple being supported in general, but I'm going to go with I don't: As long as somebody voluntarily offered them the support, and not was "forced" into it (through various means, including ones such as 1) there is no other way this couple will survive or 2) they feel pressured to because that's what's "expected" of them). The problem people have is that the expectation of today is that a father-in-law will support his son-in-law. This leads to serious problems in the present (bankrolls mattering for shidduchim) and even more serious problems in the future (as the money dries up, caused by the next generation unable to do the same thing).
KollelMama,
ReplyDeletePlease give me your analysis of how those who get a late start on establishing a career when they already have started a family (sometimes, a quite large family), envision picking up tuition fees that are MASSIVE in addition to modest living costs in a housing market that is prohibitive to say the least???
kollel mama & ezzie: good comments as to the origin of what led to the current kollel system. thank you.
ReplyDelete(i am one of those who " *do* understand where the idea of kollel comes from - and it's how it has been twisted by so many, such as the boy in the post, that troubles everyone.". Even here in australia, there are these problems.)
sephardilady-you're right it's not easy. As far as tuition goes, usually kollelguys, and even post kollel will get a reduction in the fees. Also, not everyone has to live in the five towns where it's ridiculous. Plenty of cities which are considered "out of town" have extremely decent real estate (right Ezzie?) I'm gonna say something now that you probably won't like, but I don't care- it all comes down to trusting in G-d. Whether or not you think that is responsible, is not my problem. I believe in bitachon and it works for me.
ReplyDeleteKollelMama-I wish we could all survive on bitachon alone. A few more questions and comments, although I would like a more comprehensive question to the question of how those who get a late start in life while having already started having a family to provide for (this is not just a kollel discussion, incidentally)
ReplyDelete1. Do you have any idea what real estate runs in some of these "extremely decent real estate" markets you are talking about? Do you know what a mortgage payment runs with 10% down? 20% down?
2. One needs to be able to find employment in the place they are living. Unfortunately, some of the economies in less expensive communities, do not have the same job possibilities as the economies in more expensive communities. I do highly endorse looking at out of town communities (I have yet to live in NY).
3. Do you really feel right about putting other (already struggling) parents in the position of subsidizing your children's tuition, since you mentioned automatic kollel or post-kollel discounts? Also, you should know that these automatic discounts don't exist in every community, nor should they. (IMO either everyone in need step in front of the scholarship committee, or nobody should have to).
"It all come down to trusting in G-d."
ReplyDeleteYes, certainly yes. But trusting in G-d doesn't mean sitting back and waiting for Him to pick up the slack while you're a drain on the community because you put the burden of your tuition on the community. Trusting in G-d means doign your hishtadlus so you can be the recipient of Hashem's blessings. That doesn't usually mean sitting in kollel and praying that it wil all work out somehow.
Plenty of cities which are considered "out of town" have extremely decent real estate (right Ezzie?)
ReplyDeleteYes, but SL doesn't live in NY, either. Cleveland is about as cheap as it gets, but my father is a financial planner who helps people figure out what they can lay down for a house: You still need a nice amount. A Cleveland Heights house will still run you a nice $125K - that's awesome compared to anywhere else, but it's not a drop in the bucket.
I'm gonna say something now that you probably won't like, but I don't care- it all comes down to trusting in G-d. Whether or not you think that is responsible, is not my problem. I believe in bitachon and it works for me.
That's very nice, but pretty much every single opinion throughout history doesn't allow one to do so (halachically) but requires incredible hishtadlus. If too many people "just have bitachon", this already extremely inflated Jewish economy is going to burst - and badly. And that's going to happen within 25 years if things don't drastically change in the next 5-10.
Ezzie-Amen.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall saying that I'm gonna close my eyes, trust in G-d and hope it all works out. No. Of COURSE you need to do hishtadlus. A large amount. On the other hand, I'm not gonna start freaking out and thinking that I need to know what exactly my husband is going to do the day he leaves kollel. He obviously knows he needs to start thinking about what he wants to do, whether it be in chinuch or not, and that's fine. As long as he is aware that one day, he WILL need to work. That's the first step,which I think is lacking in lots of men's minds when they are in kollel. They won't at all think of the future. Maybe it's denial, I duno. I think that as long as we have some ideas, then that is what the main thing is.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say it's going to be EASY. We know it won't be. We just feel priveleged that we can start our marriage off this way, without worrying about finances at this point.
ezzie-regarding your real estate comment- you're right, but as of now we live in a pretty expensive part of Jerusalem, and a small apt. can get you a pretty nice house anywhere else. Excluding NY. Besides, we're planning on staying here for awhile, so that's not really an issue.
"...although I would like a more comprehensive question to the question of how those who get a late start in life while having already started having a family to provide for (this is not just a kollel discussion, incidentally)"
That's just what I was going to say. This is not only a kollel discussion. (In that regard.)
"Do you really feel right about putting other (already struggling) parents in the position of subsidizing your children's tuition, since you mentioned automatic kollel or post-kollel discounts? Also, you should know that these automatic discounts don't exist in every community, nor should they. (IMO either everyone in need step in front of the scholarship committee, or nobody should have to)."
A. For the meantime our baby is only 6 months old, so for right now, it's not a major concern.
B. We live in Israel, where everyone is in kollel and in chinuch basically. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that school is free here. I know it is in England. I think it's free cuz the schools are under a public school system. Again, not a major (or even minor)concern right now.
"Without worrying about finances at this point."
ReplyDeleteThat's not what you seemed to indicate in one of your recent posts. Keep in mind that the kollel lifestyle is difficult and you don't have to stay in it because "it's the thing to do."
KollelMama-Excuse me for intruding, but I think that even people in kollel should be making a concerted effort to choose a path, ESPECIALLY if that path is chinuch.
ReplyDeleteThere are way too many people out there without a plan. Many have ideas. Many have dreams. But, getting there requires a roadmap.
There is the link to a piece by Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, menahel, entitled "The Plan: An Open Letter to Yeshiva Bachurim." It is a worthwhile read for all:
http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/The%20Plan%20Final.htm
Our Yeshivot should offer a "pre-chinuch" track or something of the sort, where interested students are given some training in educational theory, a chance to observe master teachers, and a chance to student teach. But, since a chinuch track isn't a reality, those who claim interest, should be making efforts to give it a try, build their resume, and build their reputation (especially if they have no connections).
People don't just walk out of the non-working world into the working world and make the salary they need to support their families. Many young people are floundering because their dream or idea hasn't worked out.
You seem lucky living in Eretz Yisrael where tuition isn't a concern, etc. But, here in America, elementary tuition outside of a few "in-town" places starts at $8000 and continues to go up and up. If a woman is working, summer care (i.e. camp) becomes an absolute necessity too. The numbers are daunting, even for professionals. And, I personally don't take well to my neighbors who are getting a late start telling me "well, that's what scholarships are for." (I believe in communal support of chinuch, but with that attitude, there will be no solutions).
KM - Solid answers. However, you see how that works in your particular situation - but not for most of the people around you.
ReplyDeleteTwo of my sister's best friends lived hand-to-mouth (very happily) when they were in Israel, and their husbands were not just learning - they were tutoring at a nice rate as well. They both ended up having to come back, neither with much to their names. Thankfully, both had gotten much training while in Israel and were able to find good jobs in Chinuch in N. America (in cheap cities, Columbus and Montreal), but both are also supremely talented. Most of the people around them are nowhere near them in terms of skill level, and most don't bother to get real training. Are there exceptions to the kollel system who can succeed as soon as they leave? Yes. Do the rest of us also need plans? Yes. But are there far more problems bound to happen in today's kollel system? Absolutely.
SL- Wow. That's a great letter.
ReplyDeleteThis one may cause some controversy:
ReplyDeleteI predict that in another generation the only part of Orthodox Judaism that will be thriving will be the left wing of modern orthodoxy -- because it is the only stream that has made major commitments both to Jewish Day Schools and to kiruv, but no commitment to kollelim.
and?????
ReplyDeleteCharlie - I'm going to disagree with that one... RW MO and even LW UO will probably be in decent shape. It's the Charedi and very Yeshivish populations that will be in trouble.
ReplyDelete