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Tuesday, May 09, 2006

Flying Without Women

Orthomom and DovBear are both discussing the latest bit of news out of Israel:
Two leading rabbis set to fly to the United States concluded an agreement with El Al that would see them enjoy a woman-free and movie-free flight. The Gerrer Rebbe, a Hassidic leader who will fly abroad on Sunday, asked El Al that no air stewardesses be aboard the flight. El Al complied with the rabbi's request and on Sunday's flight to the United States only males will look after passengers.

The Gerrer Rebbe and Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, 93, another leading rabbi, will fly in a historic journey to visit American Jewish communities. The rabbis asked that the flight from Israel adhere to the strictest standards of modesty. Their aides agreed with El Al officials that they will not have to see women during flight. The rabbis bought all first class tickets on the flight to make sure no businesswomen are on board.

It was also decided that no films will be screened during the flight. Moreover, the backs of first class seats will be covered with plastic so that the rabbis won't even have to see the television screens.
I have to agree with Orthomom and others on a number of points: It's their money, they're bringing in far more money than they're spending, people donate money for these purposes, etc. That ElAl is adjusting its roster doesn't bother me much, either. But I'm more troubled with the message it sends, which is so clearly pointed out by DovBear:
Each of those empty seats costs in the vicinity of $10,000. A decent pair of sunglasses costs $100, and what about his gartle? In a pinch, that could serve as a blindfold. Or how's this for a wild idea: he could just close his eyes.

And please, let's not lose sight (ha!) of another important fact: IT IS NOT OSUR TO LOOK AT WOMEN.
This flight is sending the exact opposite message: Women are not allowed to be looked at, or even near, if you wish to be holy. Even if you'd argue that their intention is merely for their own comfort, the message it sends to others is far beyond that. I think that what another Godol said yesterday is very fitting for this, even if he was discussing a completely different subject: [edited]
How ridiculous is this? Are we so scared of reality that we have to ignore it? Is this what religion is supposed to be?

I’m sorry, but this isn’t religion.

I realize that without fundamentalism it’s going to be hard to keep people within the fold, and keep the religion alive, but there’s really no other sensible choice. A religion which requires lies and ignorance to survive isn’t a spiritual path to God.

We already see the results of these lies in our days - Gedolim acting improperly, Chassidim rioting, Rabbanim insisting on dubious circumcision procedures, people ostracized from communities, criminals indicted for fraud producing sefarim, censorship, denial of the truth, falsification of history, child molesters protected by religious communities, accused child abusers proclaimed innocent by Gedolim no matter what the evidence.

Rabbi Gil Student says, ‘I keep expecting truth from the world of Torah, but I guess that's wishful thinking.’ But the ‘Torah world’ is not interested in the truth. If you go against the party line you are ostracized. Again, I understand the desire to ‘circle the wagons’ against the ‘treif’ outside world. But it cannot be done using such methods.
And yet, it continues. Down what path are we heading?

30 comments:

  1. Before ANY condemnation, let's first see if the story is true. You'll note that YNET cited NO sources and even quoted ElAl saying that they are saying nothing.

    That being, people like DovBear are having a great time with Loshon Horah. Perhaps, one needs to seriously research issues BEFORE posting on them...

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  2. I don't understand, Anon. Firstly, the reasonable assumption is that YNet didn't make up the story. Second, while you're right people should research issues before posting [something I've complained to DB about many times], the only lashon hara seems to be your comment about DB. DB's post says no lashon hara.

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  3. "Firstly, the reasonable assumption is that YNet didn't make up the story"

    YNet, like many papers, has a nice history of making errors, see how they handled the accused baby-killers case.

    Loshon Horah certainly applies in this case on DB part. By repeating such a story, which is NOT backed up by the source, he is speaking Loshon Horah. His constant attacks on these rabbis and those chassidim living in New York , attacking them all for being 'welfare cheats', constitute Loshon Horah. His treatment of these rabbis, according to Rabbeinu Yonah, even earns him the title of Apikorus.

    I've brought this issue up with DB many times. He's ignored such warnings. Hence, my statement, warning people to stay away from him does NOT consitute loshon horah.

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  4. Just to back up my statements on listening to/believing/republishing from YNET:

    "The commandmentment 'Do not accept a flase report', prohibits the acceptance as fact of any negative statement concerning a person or group of persons. Accurate interpretation of a person's actions or words demands THOROUGH knowledge of the setting in which the action occurred... This is obviously impossible unless one has witnessed the action ... Reliance on the sunsitivity, objectivity, integrity and wisdom of an alleged observer of an imporper act is REJECTED by the Torah as FOOLISH AND WRONG... (Sefer Chofetz Chaim)

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  5. Anon, I totally agree with your assessment of DB's Loshon Hara issues. That is why I stopped reading that blog a very long time ago. I couldn't stand the unsubstantiated stories and lies anymore.

    As to to this "story", I'll wait to see if it's reported in other sources. I happen to be part Ger, so I will not accept stories about the Gerer Rebbi until it has been thoroughly substantiated.
    -OC

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  6. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  7. "Oooooh I would hate to be the one to judge the Rabbanim!"

    Yes you would...

    "Those who, in their speech, are not heedful of the honour of Torah scholars, whether in their presence or not in their presence, are heretics, who have no share in the World to Come (Sanhedrin 99b)" - Shaarei Tshuva

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  8. Concerning bloggers who speak loshon horah and speak ill of others:

    "The Gemara teaches that one is permitted to speak loshon hora about baalie machlokes, who are at the forefront of a community feud. The purpose of speaking out against such indiciduals is to encourage other members of the community to dissociate themselves from them"

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  9. I've brought this issue up with DB many times. He's ignored such warnings. Hence, my statement, warning people to stay away from him does NOT consitute loshon horah.

    Except that's not what you said. You said, "people like DovBear are having a great time with Loshon Horah."

    It is disgusting to pretend to be "holier than thou" by hypocritically committing the same action you are accusing another of.

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  10. And again, you fail to point me to a sentence in DovBear's post where he said lashon hara. He is also not the one who made the "welfare cheats" remark in the comments; those comments were made by others (and bashed by many, including myself). Furthermore, I fail to see what lashon hara exists in this story: It is a matter of disagreement over whether their actions are more proper or cause unintended consequences that are negative, not whether they are doing something wrong.

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  11. "Oooooh I would hate to be the one to judge the Rabbanim!"

    Who were you quoting on this?

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  12. You tell 'em Ezzie!
    They just don't realise the difference between repectfully questioning and having a discussion and motzei shem ra. All they do is propagate sinas chinam.

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  13. I for one, have no problem judging anyone, and I do, regularly.


    While yeah, they have the right to pay whatever they want to get what they want, but, still, it's just odd.

    It's similar to what I tell the kids I work with: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

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  14. Such wasted money. With families unable to afford Jewish school tuition, medical care, etc
    What? Have they no self-control? If they have to travel from NY to Chicago, do they make the same demands from the airlines?

    OK, I do have an issue with the chutzpah. On our last trip to Kever Rachel, some male chareidi hitch hikers (who just marched into our bus) asked some young girls who had paid to get up and give them seats. I told those guys to get to the back of the bus and leave the girls alone.

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  15. "And again, you fail to point me to a sentence in DovBear's post where he said lashon hara. "

    Again, from Sefer Chofetz Chaim:

    "The commandmentment 'Do not accept a flase report', prohibits the acceptance as fact of any negative statement concerning a person or group of persons."

    "He is also not the one who made the "welfare cheats" remark in the comments; those comments were made by others"

    He did not make the original statement, but he did say:

    "My experience tells me that a great many of them are."

    "Furthermore, I fail to see what lashon hara exists in this story: "

    It's a story, which has absolutely no backing (ie. could be rumours, could be made up), which was clearly meant to put talmidei chachamim in a negative light.

    Lets say I put on my blog a story about Ezie who was seen at a restraunt with a former boyfriend when her husband was out of town. Then others take that story, report it, and 'discuss' how inappropriate it was of Ezie to do such a thing. It's a simple conversation whether Ezie's actions are proper or not, that's it!

    Is it Loshon Horah? Of course it is! On many levels. The base level is, it's an unsourced story in which we don't even know is true!

    ""Oooooh I would hate to be the one to judge the Rabbanim!""

    I was quoting kasamba who just removed the post.

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  16. "They just don't realise the difference between repectfully questioning and having a discussion and motzei shem ra. "

    I'm the one quoting halacha on why this is loshon horah. I have yet to see anybody do the same defending the idea of taking an unsource story and believing it. And many of the commentators on DBs site are hardly being 'respectful'.

    If anybody here can show me in halacha, where it is acceptable to believe this story, I would be quite gracious.

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  17. "The commandmentment 'Do not accept a flase report', prohibits the acceptance as fact of any negative statement concerning a person or group of persons."

    Again, that would be if it were a negative statement. It is not.

    He did not make the original statement, but he did say:

    "My experience tells me that a great many of them are."


    Which means you failed to read the entire comment section, in which he acknowledged that was wrong and clarified what he had meant to write - which was far different in nature.

    It's a story, which has absolutely no backing (ie. could be rumours, could be made up), which was clearly meant to put talmidei chachamim in a negative light.

    Say the same story to others and they would view it as an excellent example of the precautions one must make to avoid error. So, clearly not.

    Lets say I put on my blog a story about Ezie who was seen at a restraunt with a former boyfriend when her husband was out of town. Then others take that story, report it, and 'discuss' how inappropriate it was of Ezie to do such a thing. It's a simple conversation whether Ezie's actions are proper or not, that's it!

    If I have an ex-boyfriend, there are far bigger issues... My wife would be pretty pissed. Nevertheless, the two examples are not at all comparable.

    Is it Loshon Horah? Of course it is! On many levels. The base level is, it's an unsourced story in which we don't even know is true!

    It's a reported story from a respected news organization. I've yet to see any reason not to believe it.

    I was quoting kasamba who just removed the post.

    So, since nobody knew that Kasamba wrote it, you've just maligned her for a comment she apparently regretted and deleted. You could have simply said it was a comment that was deleted above yours.

    You have yet to show (with substance) why discussion of this story is a problem. You also have the opportunity to simply not come here and read items if you don't want to, and I'm certain DovBear would tell you the same.

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  18. I would hope El Al does not have a policy allowing purchasers of first class tickets to prevent films from being screened on the entire flight (as the story seems to indicate). That's a long flight and that cartoon channel comes in REALLY handy when you're traveling with kids.

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  19. Somebody said:

    Lets say I put on my blog a story about Ezie who was seen at a restraunt with a former boyfriend when her husband was out of town. Then others take that story, report it, and 'discuss' how inappropriate it was of Ezie to do such a thing. It's a simple conversation whether Ezie's actions are proper or not, that's it!

    Is it Loshon Horah? Of course it is! ...


    Pardon a non-expert for questioning this, but isn't Lashon Horah about repeating things which are true? Of course publishing lies about someone is wrong, but I think it has its own category name and laws.

    (I'm assuming its not true, as I believe I am supposed to.)

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  20. I wonder if you fly without the movies, if EALA gives you extra Frequent Flier Points?

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  21. Fascinating. I would be interested in knowing if this were 100% true.

    However, if it is, clearly El Al had no problem with it...

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  22. That being, people like DovBear are having a great time with Loshon Horah.

    The post appeared on Ezzie and on OrthoMom, too, yet you single out DovBear. Your agenda is clear. Obviously, you are a conservative who can't stand the fact that DovBear frequently lands well deserved bodyblows on your idols. Pathetic, is what you are. Pathetic.

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  23. Second, while you're right people should research issues before posting [something I've complained to DB about many times],

    Ezzie every time you post an unsourced piece of garbage from Michelle Malkin, or those other irreposible right wing sites you commit the same sin. Their stuff is as poorly sourced as DB's material.

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  24. "My experience tells me that a great many of them are."

    Liar! He wrote "My experience tells me that a great many of them are on welfare, and that too many of them cheat."


    SHAME ON YOU

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  25. that's one flight I would NOT want to be on.

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  26. I am greatly concerned with the general direction Orthodoxy is headed. Fundementalism is destroying the fabric of Torah Jewry as we know it. Wish there was a way to combat it on any or all fronts.

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  27. PT, JH - Amen to both of you.

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  28. hi guys,

    just to let all of you know, i work at LAX international and the Rabbis arrived on a BA flight...not even EL AL !!!

    they flew ELAL from TLV to London on Sunday on an aircraft that doesn't even have First Class Seating !

    and from London they cam in with British Airways

    I suggest that from now on everyone should double-check their sources before slandering others.

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  29. i think you should edit your profile,Im not so sure you are still auditing hedge funds

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  30. Alpert - Thanks. I'm not 24, either. Maybe one day I'll update it...

    How's RSM?

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