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Tuesday, May 20, 2008

Fuzzy Math

In a post yesterday, ProfK made a point that reminded me of a discussion that we had here on Shabbos:
Along with the aforementioned "laws" are two others: 1) the whole is equal to the sum of its parts and 2) no part can be greater than the whole. This is where things get a little sticky in the frum world. There are those who act as if these principles are false when it comes to religion.

If the whole is equal to the sum of its parts, then there is no "whole" without all the parts. We have Klal Yisroel--let's call that our whole. There are any number of parts that make up that whole. They are not all identical but they are all parts. Because there can be no whole without ALL the parts, every part has value. Try paying for something that costs $1.00 with only 81 cents. There are some parts of Klal that are clearly not happy with this state of things. Not only do they feel that other parts of Klal have no value, but they don't seem to consider them parts of the whole at all. Some parts seem to feel that if the other parts disappeared altogether the whole would be strengthened, not diminished. Some parts seem to feel that unless all the other parts are exactly like them then those different parts cannot belong to the whole.
On Shabbos, we were discussing the Charedi world - particularly in Eretz Yisrael - and the economics thereof. Included on the guest list were two brothers with opposing views: One half-jokingly suggested cutting off the charedi world completely when it came to finances, while the other was clearly upset by this remark.

Now, I'm more than a little biased: I have 40 charedi relatives, including more than a few who are directly benefited by the government, living in Israel. I'd like them to be able to live in a much more comfortable fashion, without question. But as I posed to this brother... who exactly should be paying for this?

It is very simplistic to argue that which I've heard many times before, that the Charedim are doing their share of supporting the country by learning. Whether this is true or not, and even this brother seemed to feel that it should be limited to a much more select group, this is a line of reasoning that simply will not fly among the rest of the country. This is true for a few reasons, but primary among them is the lack of feeling by the rest of the country that the Charedim include them in any other way into their lives. It is hard to completely cut yourself off as a group from everyone else for everything but money - to treat almost everyone else as a subgroup of Judaim, while simultaneously announcing that your group deserves to get handouts from everyone via the government. And while it's very easy to wave off the government as anti-Torah, but without showing them why they should be pro-Torah, it's impossible to expect them to give money toward it.

While thinking of governments, we found it interesting later in the day to read 3:2 in Pirkei Avos later that day: "Pray for the welfare of the government, because if people did not fear it, a person would swallow his fellow alive." According to R' Yonah (via Artscroll), it is a call for Jews to take an interest in public issues. Meanwhile, Mili D'Avos notes that it is a continuation from 3:1, which calls on people to recognize where they come from (a putrid drop) and where they are going (to a place of dust, worms, and maggots) so as not to sin. While that works when it comes to sinning against God, it doesn't when it comes to man - after all, he is coming from the same nothing and heading to the same fate, and a person might feel they have "earned" a higher stature. To counter this, R' Chanina says that it is only fear of governmental intervention that can stop someone.

It is interesting that communal problems often start where groups seem to at best ignore, at worst outright defy governmental guidelines and decide for themselves what should be happening. If groups within the Jewish community wish certain things for themselves, the way to go about it is not to try and force it on the rest of the community, even as they don't take part in the whole. It has to come by working from within, by understanding the give and take necessary to get whatever it is they desire. This needs to be done on a personal, religious, communal, and governmental level, or the splits that are already all too clear will lead to a level of abandonment in which neither side will feel a responsibility to help the other recover from the mistakes they warned about.

15 comments:

  1. Part of the problem in Israel is that chareidim don't want to go to the army, but they can't get a job or go to college - the only other alternative is learning. So chareidi men are basically cut off from most income opportunities, and it's now become a way of life.

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  2. If your argument is that charedi men would choose a job or college above learning, but they can't because of the army exemption, I'd have to say that I don't buy it. The 1st choice there is the learning, not the job or college.

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  3. Okay, here comes the cynic...

    chareidim don't want to go to the army,

    Correct

    The 1st choice there is the learning, not the job or college.

    Are we sure that this is 100% correct? Or is it that the first choice is not the job or college and learning is what's left?

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  4. Well it's certainly not the college. I'd presume it's the learning over the job, though, from what I've always heard from Rabbonim and yeshiva guys.

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  5. About 40 years ago, there probably were chareidim who wouldn't have minded getting a job. Today, no. Or mostly no. (Nachal Chareidi is a sort of case in point.) But the today situation is at least partially an outgrowth of the yesterday situation. From everyone is learning from necessity, it becomes everyone is learning, becomes how can you not be doing what everyone is doing, becomes you must be learning.

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  6. I wish I could use less qualifiers, but I don't know any of this stuff as fact. However, I've heard it from people who were around 30-40 years ago and claim to remember how it was. They don't use qualifiers.

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  7. In English we would call the chareidi versus the Israeli government position as "biting the hand that feeds you." You can't have it both ways, although they try. You can't condemn someone on one hand while insisting they support you on the other.

    And if there is a feeling of superiority to the rest of us based on their learning as opposed to working then how did they miss those two parts that say "Kol Yisroel areivim zeh lo zeh" and "V'ohavtah l'reiachoh kemochah"? Must be a lot of self-hatred among them?

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  8. "biting the hand that feeds you."

    --Bingo!

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  9. Bad4 - Agreed on the history. So the question becomes now how to change the mindset which is so ingrained... and that's got to start from the top.

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  10. So the question becomes now how to change the mindset which is so ingrained... and that's got to start from the top.

    Social reformation? I don't go there.

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  11. 1. Even if they wanted to get a job or go to college, they have no knowledge or skills to help them.
    2. The government gives them money because the political system allows small parties to have an inordinate power over the budget. It has nothing to do with how most of Israel feels about haredim, kollel and the army.
    3. The govt. similarly allows the haredim to get away without teaching their sons basic skills, which perpetuates the problem.

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  12. how to change the mindset which is so ingrained... and that's got to start from the top.

    First of all it does not "got" to come from anywhere. I'm pretty sure that there is at least one side that thinks things are fine just the way they are.

    Second..."start from the top"??!!!

    Bzzzzzzz, guess again. Change works from the ground up, as the people at the top wish to stay there.

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  13. First of all it does not "got" to come from anywhere. I'm pretty sure that there is at least one side that thinks things are fine just the way they are.

    That's the point of the post. Blindness to reality is only heading toward economic disaster.

    Change works from the ground up, as the people at the top wish to stay there.

    Granted, but the change itself will have to come from the top because of the structure of the community. That means either the people on the ground need to somehow change the people at the top, or show them that they need to say something to avoid losing their spots.

    ...not saying it's easy.

    Other option would be a groundswell of people who take a gamble and try to effect change from the bottom, but that would most likely simply remove them from the community.

    As a note, there are those at the top who are changing - the Gerrer Rebbe last year called on people to go work.

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  14. There are very many Charedi wives who work. Does anybody condemn single-income families when it isn't the Charedim?

    You want them to earn more - why do they have to follow Western ideas of standard of living?

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  15. "There are very many Charedi wives who work. Does anybody condemn single-income families when it isn't the Charedim?"

    No offense intended, but among those of us of who are non-Orthodox (which excludes many of the fine Frum folks who post or comment on this blog), the perception is that, while there are certainly "perpetual students" in graduate school--the secular equivalent of kollel--most of the non-religious world waits until the graduate degree is in hand and the new job already begun before having children. Among many of us non-Orthodox, the condemnation of Chareidi single-income families arises from a perception that Chareidi parents are having children when they're barely capable of supporting even themselves.

    "You want them to earn more - why do they have to follow Western ideas of standard of living?"

    The problem, real (in some cases) and/or perceived (in others, perhaps) is not that Chareidim don't have Western living standards, but that their income is so low that they have to depend on charity--in private or goverment form--whereas, if both spouses worked--or if Chareidi women were free to pursue highter education and to work in higher-paying fields--that might not be the case. We got no financial help whatsoever in raising our child. Why should I have to help support the children of a person who is, or should be, perfectly capable of getting a job that will enable him/her/them to support his/her/their own children? Why is a man condemned, in certain communities, for wanting to support his own family by working for a living instead of studying full-time? Who died and left everyone else in charge of the Chareidim's children?

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