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Monday, November 10, 2008

To Set Up Or Not

In the Orthodox Jewish world, most people date at least occasionally if not exclusively through a shidduch, which basically means being set up on a date through someone else. Without getting into the whole process and its many advantages and disadvantages, success rate and stupidities, here is the dilemma for casually interested people such as ourselves.

Is it better to set up only matches which you think have a particularly high chance of being successful, or is it better to set up any idea that's reasonable or could work?

In general, our approach has been to take the first route, with less than a handful of exceptions (and those were pretty much failures). Serach has a slightly lower threshold than myself, setting up people if she thinks it's a good idea; I tend to only suggest ideas that I think are very good.

We've found that of the singles we know well, they tend to alternately either prefer this approach or get frustrated by it; guys seem to prefer it more often, while girls seem to be more frustrated. This is probably because guys are getting more calls and having someone else weed out only the best ideas helps them, while girls are more often trying to get dates. One close friend mentioned at lunch last week that he preferred it, and that it also made him much more likely to date someone we suggest, knowing that we wouldn't do so if we didn't think it was worthwhile; another friend wasn't sure, suggesting that he'd prefer to hear any idea and then judge for himself, while simultaneously acknowledging that it was frustrating to constantly be suggested girls that were not even close to matches for him.

30 comments:

  1. I don't really know which way is better or not, or even if there should be such a rule about doing things at all, but I just know that a lot of married people I know (my parents included) who met on their own say that if they'd gone to a shadchan/asked friends to set them up, there's no way they'd have been set up with each other.

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  2. Granted, and that's true of myself and Serach as well. It's a good argument against the system in general, where people are essentially forced to make choices based on what seems to be a good idea or not. However, within the system, does that mean that it's best to just put out any idea, or is it still best to narrow down ideas to ones that seem to be really good ones?

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  3. Theoretically, most people say they'll give anything a shot. But when it comes down to actually going on a date, people get upset/frustrated when the person they're with is totally off for them.

    The question is do daters want more dates, or do they want fewer dates that have a higher chance of working out? It's hard to say. That sort of thing can change day by day, depending on how often someone is in a "dry spell" or whatever. If you're getting lots of suggestions, then you might be more picky about who you say yes to. If you haven't been suggested anyone in over three months, at that point, you might want to just go out so you can say you did. Also, just because something seems like a really good idea doesn't mean it will turn out well for both parties, although I doubt I need to tell you that ;).

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  4. Apple - Theoretically, most people say they'll give anything a shot. But when it comes down to actually going on a date, people get upset/frustrated when the person they're with is totally off for them.

    Absolutely, and understandably.

    The question is do daters want more dates, or do they want fewer dates that have a higher chance of working out? It's hard to say. That sort of thing can change day by day, depending on how often someone is in a "dry spell" or whatever. If you're getting lots of suggestions, then you might be more picky about who you say yes to. If you haven't been suggested anyone in over three months, at that point, you might want to just go out so you can say you did.

    Exactly (except for the "just so you can say you did part). It's more that a person will be open to what would normally be less likely suggestions, and hope to be surprised. But right.

    Also, just because something seems like a really good idea doesn't mean it will turn out well for both parties, although I doubt I need to tell you that ;)

    LOL!

    I still stand by the idea that a shadchan's job is to set a pair up that is basically within the right hashkafic range and whose personalities would mesh well. From there, it's up to the couple. In that vein, should the shadchan stick to really good ideas (in their opinion) or should they be more suggestive and let the person weed through it all?

    Good comment, thanks. But nobody is giving an opinion! Just agreeing with both sides! :P

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  5. Depends on the people involved, I guess. I don't think there can be a general rule about this stuff. People are only human. No one can really predict a match for someone else, they can only suggest possibilities. So the really random couples - maybe they need to meet on their own because no one will suggest them anyway. There's no way to know for sure about these things, you know? And some people just make so much sense, everyone else could see it before they did, and those people, yeah, it works to set them up. If you're setting someone up, I guess it's kind of weird to just be like, "you never know who you're going to marry so here, go out with this nice, random guy/girl." Someone can be set up a million times and then meet the person he/she's going to marry on his/her own because that's just the only way they would have met anyway. You know? If you're setting someone up, it probably makes more sense to set them up with people you think will actually work, or maybe if you think there's a good chance, even if you're not completely certain. Because it's not like that prevents people from meeting on their own also. I hope this makes sense. I think I'm having trouble articulating what I want to say.

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  6. Basically, set up ones that make sense and assume that the others will meet on their own (and that's how it probably has to go,anyway)? Sounds reasonable to me.

    Another factor worth considering: If people suggest someone and they don't perceive it as a good idea from whatever they hear, they'd probably always just think "not for me", even if they met them separately. However, if they were never suggested, and meet on their own, they might actually hit it off without that bias. Maybe?

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  7. But nobody is giving an opinion! Just agreeing with both sides! :P

    Hehe. Because ideally, everyone would say "Only set me up with people who are perfect for me so that I never have to endure another horrible date again!" except you can't actually say that, since you never know who might work out, blah blah blah.

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  8. Granted, but if you're being given a choice of only being told about people whom someone thinks is a great idea vs. anyone who might be up your alley, what would you prefer? Or does it depend on how busy you are, etc.?

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  9. However, if they were never suggested, and meet on their own, they might actually hit it off without that bias. Maybe?

    Eh. You might like the person, but that doesn't mean that you'd be inclined to date them. Or that even if you wanted to, that it would be a good idea to do so.

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  10. My feeling was that if someone sounded reasonable, I'd go out. You can't know everything. It's not possible. My sister in law once made a shidduch. What were her criteria? Both were tall.

    And then I look at myself. I had a very strict rule. I didn't want to date anyone more than 5 years younger than me. Once someone set me up with a young lady who was 6 years younger than me. I don't think that the shadchan checked her age specifically. I had a great time, so that restriction fell by the wayside. My wife's 7 years younger than me.

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  11. If I'm being given a choice? I'd prefer to only have smart, sharp, respectful, intelligent, good-looking, funny guys who will fit in great with my family and are lamdanim get suggested to me. But as the product of a highly unlikely and extremely successful match, I have a hard time saying no to anyone, unless I have a very good reason to.

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  12. But as the product of a highly unlikely and extremely successful match, I have a hard time saying no to anyone, unless I have a very good reason to.

    Same.

    Btw, my mom has said to me countless times:

    "Is he an axe-murderer?"
    "No..."
    "So! He's a nice boy, he can have an intelligent conversation, it can't hurt to go on one date!"

    (I don't know how much I agree/disagree with this, but just thought I'd share my mom's POV on the whole thing)

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  13. Eh. You might like the person, but that doesn't mean that you'd be inclined to date them. Or that even if you wanted to, that it would be a good idea to do so.

    Agreed. But I mean more that if someone has already decided someone is a "no", it's less likely for them to be open-minded about it.

    SD - Agreed with all that, but that's more of a people should be open-minded about whom they date point. If you're suggesting, though, there are certainly going to be people whom you think are better ideas and those which you don't think so - should you restrict your suggestions to better ideas, or no?

    Apple - But would you rather hear about those other ones more often or less so?

    Erachet, Apple - But as the product of a highly unlikely and extremely successful match, I have a hard time saying no to anyone, unless I have a very good reason to.

    "Is he an axe-murderer?"
    "No..."
    "So! He's a nice boy, he can have an intelligent conversation, it can't hurt to go on one date!"


    A fair point which I generally agree with; but when a person is busier in general, this isn't so simple and a person must start limiting somewhat.

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  14. I think its important to distinguish between soemoen who is perfect for you and someone who is in the range of good for you. If the aspects about a person that are a MUST for you are there, then you should go for it, even if not all the "wants" are.
    So basically, set people up who are in similar directions. They shouldn't have to match up to a crazy list of criteria but the two people still need to be somewhere in the same ballpark.

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  15. Personally, I think it is best to only set up people if you think it really is a good idea. One point is that it is difficult to set people up if you don't know them that well, personality-wise, because I think that is the most important component of what will work. Two people can be in basically the same range hashkafically, or have similar backgrounds and have absolutely nothing to talk about. That being said, I am usually hesitant to go out with a suggestion if it's not from someone who really does know me as a person and know what my thought processes and personal strengths are like, because if they don't get that, then how are they going to have any idea who I would get along with. I have set people up in the past, but only when I knew both parties reasonably well and had a good idea that they would at least have things in common personality-wise. And so far, it has never been a disaster and each time the couple has gone out more than once.

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  16. I think it has to be a reasonable shidduch but not necessarily highly likely. Suggesting someone isn't forcing them to go out. Hopefully they'll do their own checking and make their decision based on what they find out. I think you have nothing to lose and plenty to gain by suggesting someone, as long as it's not obviously off.

    I have a 29 year old SIL who's completely burnt out at this point but she always says that she wishes people wouldn't be afraid to set her up with someone who's not obviously Mr. Right. It helps her to know people are thinking of her at this point and unless it's not a ridiculous idea, why not increase her chances of finding the right boy by setting her up.

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  17. In the old days when we wanted to meet girls we'd work for NCSY!

    Or become musicians. That usually works.

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  18. Some of the comments here have mentioned letting more "unlikely" couples meet on their own. This would be great if these people actually had the chance to meet each other. In my personal experience, opportunities to meet people are slim--not because I shy away from all co-ed activities, but because even at such activities (a shiur, for example) it is rare to actually speak to someone you don't already know--of either gender.

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  19. I have set up lots of people and none have been a complete disaster because I (almost) always know both sides pretty well. but I don't put a huge amount of thought into my set-ups. If both people are nice and decent and I think there could be something there, I'll set it up. I don't like analyzing the hashkafa of other people when there is a very good chance that the daters may realize that some of their no-compromise issues can be compromised on.

    As someone who gets set up a lot, I'll give almost anything a chance, but some "shadchanim" (I'm using that term VERY loosely to refer to anyone who sets you up) simply have no clue. Through my years of dating I have learned a lot about who I can trust and what kind of questions to ask. I've gone out with many guys who were so off-base, because I don't fit into a box so people just try to throw anything my way.

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  20. Like I wrote, you can't account for everything. I don't think that people should be picky. If someone sounds like 70% of a match based on resume go for it. 30% not necessarily.

    At some point I decided that I should always go on a second date. I figured that anyone could have a bad day. The young women I went out with generally were not so openminded.

    On the other hand when I met my wife, I never had any doubts. (Well I didn't know that I would marry her after one date, just that I really wanted to go out with her again.) Things went very fast, unlike anything else I had experienced until that point.

    My own prejudice is that one should be openminded.

    On the other hand, my experience says that you probably have a very good sense of what you want and there's little reason to deviate much from your stated preferences. (Other than age my wife fit the profile of the sort of young lady I sought from the time I was 21.)

    The bottom line is that you can't have any hard and fast rules. There are just too many variables.

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  21. Some of the comments here have mentioned letting more "unlikely" couples meet on their own. This would be great if these people actually had the chance to meet each other. In my personal experience, opportunities to meet people are slim--not because I shy away from all co-ed activities, but because even at such activities (a shiur, for example) it is rare to actually speak to someone you don't already know--of either gender.

    Yes, but at the same time, you can't expect someone to set up two random people. You do have to be realistic about it. Just because there are couples who would never have gotten set up with each other doesn't mean people should go around setting up random people.

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  22. From my experience on the shidduch scene, my opinion is that if you have a slightly decent idea, call up and suggest it. You have no idea how much it means to get that phone call. For some, it can be months without one. Even if your idea doesn't make it to a first date, that feeling that someone cares and that someone is thinking about you is so appreciated. I've called people on numerous occasions thinking that the idea was a far shot and lo and behold, the individual in question wasn't as 'busy' as I thought and actually took me up on my suggestion. And even if he or she considers it a lousy idea, at least someone broke up the dry spell that has been going on for far too long.

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  23. I once set up a couple based on them both living in the same area, being somewhat religious, and around the same age. Overall, not a huge number of match-up items.

    They're married and they have a kid now...

    I think you have to have some minimal stuff to go on, but I don't think it has to look perfect to set it up. Just not ridiculous.

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  24. I not saying that arranged dates don't work but let me take you back to the mid 60's and early 70's. There wasn't even a concept of seperate seating at a party. We grew up in places like Crown Heights, Mill Basin, Canarsie, Long Island and Forest Hills. We went to sweet 16 parties and during the smmmers you couldn't keep us away from Bay3 in Brighton Beach. Yes, we were orthodox, shabbat & kosher food. We were busboys, waiters, lifeguards and day camp counselors in orthodox hotels like The Pioneer, Pineview and The Empire Hotel. Everyone either had a boy-girl friend or was looking to hook up. We made out in the car, some of us had sex and many had our hearts broken again again and again. Ultimately the college years matured us and many of the wild crowd got married and became very successful in business and the professions and now have kids like those of your generation who will never experience the joys of dissapointment and having your little hear beat when asking someone out ( on a date). Some of our generation went on to become Rabbis and principals of yeshivot and are responsible for transforming the most exciting part of a young persons life into dread and fear.

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  25. Anon1 - Agreed. So you'd say that if the needs are there, but the wants are not, go for it; if not all needs are, but some wants are, maybe hold off?

    Shoshana - I think it is best to only set up people if you think it really is a good idea.

    Yay! An opinion!

    Definitely hear you on the "doesn't know me well" scale, and it's certainly easier to set up two people I know well. If I know two people well and think it's a worthwhile suggestion, I'll give it even if it isn't wowing me, because I'm more comfortable with it.

    Anon2 - Thanks! Another well-reasoned opinion. Do you think that part of that is because of her age? Would she have felt the same at 22? Also, interesting point about helpful to know people are in fact thinking of a person.

    PT - LOL

    SJ - In my personal experience, opportunities to meet people are slim--not because I shy away from all co-ed activities, but because even at such activities (a shiur, for example) it is rare to actually speak to someone you don't already know--of either gender.

    Is this due to the venue or the people? It seems often today that unless it's a very informal setting or a setting specifically geared toward dating (singles events, etc.), for whatever reason, people just don't seem to shmooze. Perhaps people need to start talking to each other more, even if only their own sex, to meet more people?

    SaraK - I do think it's much easier with people you know well, if only because you know their personalities well enough to know it won't be a disaster. What are the best questions to ask, or does that depend on who the shadchan is?

    SD - Agreed on the hard and fast rules, while also agreeing a second date should almost always happen, unless there's something horrible or just completely obvious that it's not a match for whatever reason. I've suggested to people to approach each date as if there is another one following - you tend to be less judgmental and get a better feel for whether the little things a person has done are true issues or not.

    Erachet - Agreed.

    Anon3 - Great comment, thank you very much.

    Trilcat - In NYC, that can get to be a bit nuts. :)

    Jay - Are you saying that was better?

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  26. Pulling names out of a hat isn't appreciated on either side. There needs to be a basic common ground in religiousity, but past that, it's all in the air.

    I hate when people start delving into personalities, you get no where. Everyone I'm sure can offhand think of at least 5 couples whose personalities don't "mesh" at first glance.

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  27. I see a number of comments along the lines of "if you're not busy, it can't hurt to try it" (not a direct quote). To me, it doesn't matter to me whether I've had ten names mentioned to me in the past week, or if this is the first match in three months, if I get a match that doesn't sound good, I'm not going to invest the 4+ hours in research, travel and the actual date. In my experience, it's just a waste of time, and I have better things to do.

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  28. RubinCompServ, maybe that is why you're not yet married...

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  29. Definately only if you think it is reasonable. But you need to know what is/isn't important to them, and ask if need be.

    To get one's hopes up for nothing is cruel....

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  30. As you know, (and your in-law's) I'm an NCSY BT. Fixing up, blind-dates in my day, are more siyata d'shmaya than logic.

    ps I met my husband at a SSSJ demonstration. And the only couple I actually "fixed up" had nothing in common, but knowing me, and have been happily married for 38 years.

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