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Monday, November 24, 2008

Relying on Charity

A year or so ago, someone we're close with and I had an interesting conversation. He is married with three kids, learning for semicha, has no debt, a little bit of money put away in investments that he doesn't even look at, and all in all lives extremely modestly in a very inexpensive basement apartment. Being that it is a basement apartment, many people think it's really not a great place for them to be living with three kids and that they should move to a larger apartment or rent a house for a few years while he gets his semicha. Of course, they can't afford such an apartment on her salary alone... so someone made them an intriguing offer.

One of the sets of grandparents had a conversation with them, offering them the difference in rent over what they could afford and what the rent would cost as a gift. The couple would pay whatever they currently were paying (perhaps a little more) each month, and the grandparents would pay the difference, whatever that would be. After a couple weeks of deliberating and perhaps even some asking around as to what apartments which make sense for them were going for, they turned down the offer. The rationale they gave was that if something happened and the grandparents were no longer able to support them, there was no way they would be able to pay for the apartment. They didn't want to chance being stuck in a situation where they would be living well beyond their means and stuck in a situation they would not be able to get out of.

Unfortunately, this attitude is shared by almost nobody within the frum community. It seems as if huge chunks of the community are completely reliant on other people's money - charity, not loans - to get through stages of life, if not large chunks of it. This article on Yeshiva World underscores how much of a problem this has become, noting all the kollelim which are being forced to close or come up with umbrella funds and beg rich supporters in America - who are undoubtedly having extremely rough patches of their own right now - to make up the difference. The same concept applies to young people, especially couples, in college or graduate school. More and more people spend not just one year but two in expensive schools in Israel, a lot of which might not count toward college, and then attend college and grad school for 3 to 7 or more years. Particularly if they get married in this period of time, and often even if they do not, they are simply unable to afford to live even if they are taking out full loans for their education. They are reliant on help from parents or others - and when that money suddenly becomes unavailable, there's no real way out.

One of the silver linings in this current financial crisis is that it is a real opportunity for the Jewish community as a whole to see just how unstable it is economically. Perhaps this will allow people to realize that if we are always reliant on each other's money to simply get by, any little problem blows up the entire system. We can't continue to live well beyond our own means. This does not just mean that our spending is out of hand and we need to cut back - though that is true. It does not just mean that we can't rely on charity - though that is true. It does not just mean that we have to create self-sufficient institutions - though that is true. It means all those and far more. The attitude that things are coming to us must change. The attitude that we don't need to be completely self-sufficient must change. The "God will provide" attitude must change. The idea that it's okay to have no savings must change. The idea that it's okay to live paycheck to paycheck (or parent check to parent check) must change, and not only because "just in case it disappears". It is only after people are self-sufficient that we can look toward helping one another and our communities to support larger projects, to have extra luxuries for the community, to help people.

We have been given an opportunity to examine ourselves, and we really need to take it.

58 comments:

  1. Amen.

    My parents stress to me often about how important it is not to get into debt, and if you do, to get out of it as quickly as you can.

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  2. Very well written. It's true that we are in a "what's in it for me" society. We need to realize it's not all coming to us and that we need to work for what we have and not depend on others to provide.

    And unfortunately I've heard the opposite. I heard someone living a kollel life tell me that if she quits her job she won't have to spend money on childcare. She then would be considered poor by the state and receive state and federal benefits. As an end result, she would have more money in her pocket than if she went to work. What ever happened to dignity of working to earn for your needs? Besides, that's not what the government benefits are meant for. They are meant for people who can't make ends meet even when they try.

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  3. I heard someone living a kollel life tell me that if she quits her job she won't have to spend money on childcare. She then would be considered poor by the state and receive state and federal benefits. As an end result, she would have more money in her pocket than if she went to work.

    woah!, de ja vu - I could swear i JUST read that somewhere recently...hmmmmm, now where could that have been, let me think...

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  4. Re: the post

    I hope it's not the start of more to come but this IS what eventually happens when the first domino falls against a house of cards built on sand...did i mix metaphors in there somewhere?

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  5. Apple - Amen. Not much is worse than debt.

    LB - Well put as well.

    G - There's a difference between someone who puts themselves into such a situation to start and someone who is put into the situation and now has to weigh whether it's worth it to take certain jobs, as discussed previously.

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  6. Agreed. Though things tend to stand up better in sand, or at least they sink slowly rather than topple. :)

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  7. a real opportunity for the Jewish community as a whole to see just how unstable it is economically...We have been given an opportunity to examine ourselves, and we really need to take it.

    HEY! I write the comedy around here (in theory) - capisce!

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  8. LOL I hate you.

    Wouldn't it be funny if I wrote comedy and you wrote serious stuff for a bit? ... No? ... Oh.

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  9. Wouldn't it be funny if I wrote comedy

    Ummm, no - it probably wouldn't be...funny that is.

    Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh!

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  10. Unfortunately, this attitude is shared by almost nobody within the frum community.

    Or the American community at large. Does "subprime mortgage" sound familiar?

    Seriously - that's a commendable story, and almost unbelievable. Who on earth lives within their means these days?

    I'm considered exceedingly weird for refusing to take out college loans. My theory is: why get into debt before I have to? The theory espoused by my detractors is: America is built on debt, why not join the party?

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  11. G - Oy.

    Bad4 - Agreed on the subprime for other reasons, disagree on the student loans.

    (Note the "charity not loans" line in the post.)

    They're interest free for a period of time, then very low interest. (Would you buy a house only if you can buy it outright? I doubt it.) Even if you were uncomfortable with paying interest after college were over, why not take the loans, put them in a CD until you graduate, pay it all back, and keep the interest you made? Low interest loans - particularly the student/mortgage kind - are not a bad thing to have if you are using your money wisely. It doesn't mean you *should* take them, but there's more than just the debt vs. not side of the equation.

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  12. I didn't mean to compare you to the person in the story. It it very different to lose a job and then evaluate the worth of each job offer, than to quit and expect the world to take over your expenses.

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  13. Don't worry, that was G, not you. :) (See our debate on that post.)

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  14. I'll go read it, but I realized it may have sounded bad. That is why I wanted to clarify.

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  15. I applaud and admire the person you write about. I agree with you, that it is VERY unfortunate that so few people share those values, and makes those of us who DO have those values look like idiots. Sigh. At least you don't move in yeshivish circles.

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  16. They're interest free for a period of time, then very low interest. (Would you buy a house only if you can buy it outright? I doubt it.) Even if you were uncomfortable with paying interest after college were over, why not take the loans, put them in a CD until you graduate, pay it all back, and keep the interest you made? Low interest loans - particularly the student/mortgage kind - are not a bad thing to have if you are using your money wisely. It doesn't mean you *should* take them, but there's more than just the debt vs. not side of the equation.

    I *very* much disagree. You're seeing them as free money - I see them as just another thing you'd have to pay back before really being able to declare yourself free of debt. Buying a house is a different matter - chances are no one is going to have all the money necessary to buy a house in hand, but taking student loans because money is being offered to you? I think it's dangerous and liable to land you in even more debt, which will progressively be more and more difficult to extricate yourself from.

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  17. Apple - Why? Again - "if you are using your money wisely". If a person is responsible and manages their money properly, it's simple to take the funds, put it in bank CDs if you want to have no risk whatsoever, and make the 4% or so while accruing no interest yourself. As soon as the payments are due, just take the whole thing and pay it off and the debt is gone. It's quite simple.

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  18. LB - Okay.

    SIS - At least you don't move in yeshivish circles.

    Ha! Um... while I do sometimes move in non-yeshivish circles, I more often move in yeshivish ones.

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  19. As soon as the payments are due, just take the whole thing and pay it off and the debt is gone. It's quite simple.

    Really? I think not. Chances are, if you took the student loans, you needed them for some reason -- it's hard to pay back money that's been spent. Having a casual attitude towards being in debt is just not good. Think of it this way: people love using credit cards because it's essentially free money that you pay back later. But if you accrue more debt than you can pay back, you end up spending more than you originally did bec. of interest, not to mention that if you can't make payments on time, your credit report stinks. Can people use credit cards responsibly? Absolutely! Does it mean that you should give yourself carte blanche to take out loans just because they're there? No.

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  20. Chances are, if you took the student loans, you needed them for some reason -- it's hard to pay back money that's been spent.

    Er, okay.

    1) The example *here* was clearly one where she didn't need the loans, because she didn't take them. So the money wouldn't have been spent.

    2) If someone else *did* need the money, student loan debt is far and away the best to have, both because of the delay before interest accrues and the low rate. Would it be better for them to get credit card debt? That makes no sense.

    Having a casual attitude towards being in debt is just not good.

    WADR, duh. Knowing how to utilize debt is not having a casual attitude. Almost every company in this country utilizes debt to make money. If everyone waited until they had enough money for initial outlays production would be nil. It's why the government is (whether you agree with it or not, and generally I do not) bailing out banks - if they won't give credit, the whole country is sunk.

    Think of it this way: people love using credit cards because it's essentially free money that you pay back later. But if you accrue more debt than you can pay back, you end up spending more than you originally did bec. of interest, not to mention that if you can't make payments on time, your credit report stinks. Can people use credit cards responsibly? Absolutely! Does it mean that you should give yourself carte blanche to take out loans just because they're there? No.

    Who gave carte blanche? Again, from above: If you are using your money wisely. If you can't do that, then you should never accrue debt and probably should consider paying money to someone else to manage your money for you.

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  21. Isn't it a really good opportunity for people to learn to live without money at all? The current financial crisis, one in which financially secure, independent people lose their jobs might teach them a thing or two about living in a situation where, should they lose their jobs they'd be living a lifestyle they can no longer afford.

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  22. Patricia - Yes and no. What do you mean living without money at all? I don't know that that's practical in a generation where we aren't on a barter system and owning land requires, ya know, paying for it. But certainly people need to learn to save for rainy days. (For example, we have a nice amount put away in retirement accounts that we could probably use now that I'm unemployed, but since we're getting by it doesn't make sense to lose the chunk we'd pay in tax just to get it.)

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  23. The example *here* was clearly one where she didn't need the loans, because she didn't take them. So the money wouldn't have been spent.

    Riiiight, because you can always predict that someone isn't going to do something.

    If someone else *did* need the money, student loan debt is far and away the best to have, both because of the delay before interest accrues and the low rate. Would it be better for them to get credit card debt? That makes no sense.

    Where do you think I implied that? If someone NEEDS the loans, then take them. If you don't, it's not smart.

    Almost every company in this country utilizes debt to make money. If everyone waited until they had enough money for initial outlays production would be nil. It's why the government is (whether you agree with it or not, and generally I do not) bailing out banks - if they won't give credit, the whole country is sunk.

    Fine, but that doesn't mean that you -- as an individual, not a corporation or a business -- should just go on spending, spending, spending if you don't have money to pay for it or at least a very foreseeable plan for how you will pay it back. I use a credit card, don't get me wrong. But I am very careful not to exceed my credit limit and I always make sure I've got money to cover the bill at the end of the month.

    If you are using your money wisely.

    Do you actually need the money or are you just taking it because it's there?

    If you can't do that, then you should never accrue debt and probably should consider paying money to someone else to manage your money for you.

    I agree.

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  24. Riiiight, because you can always predict that someone isn't going to do something.

    Um, as noted above - if you're worried, just lock it up in CDs.

    Where do you think I implied that? If someone NEEDS the loans, then take them. If you don't, it's not smart.

    Uh, where you said "if you took the student loans, you needed them for some reason". And again, if you don't, then "smart" would be to take the [interest free loans], invest them, and pay it back before the interest starts.

    Fine, but that doesn't mean that you -- as an individual, not a corporation or a business -- should just go on spending, spending, spending if you don't have money to pay for it or at least a very foreseeable plan for how you will pay it back.

    Duh. See "wisely" above.

    I use a credit card, don't get me wrong. But I am very careful not to exceed my credit limit and I always make sure I've got money to cover the bill at the end of the month.

    LOL. Which is exactly what a student loan put away in CDs is, except the risk if you don't pay on time is far less; it poses no credit risk; and you're less likely to spend a CD that you can't touch then cash in a bank account that you can.

    Do you actually need the money or are you just taking it because it's there?

    That Q makes no sense. (Stop thinking like a spender and think like an investor.)

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  25. G - LOL on the timing. See my last line.

    Apple - Read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". One of the best (short) books ever written. Seriously.

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  26. I understand that your example may have been merely illustrative of a mindset, but I see a difference between being "reliant on other peoples' money", and accepting such a gift from a grandparent.

    In the former case (i.e. people learning in Kollel for extended periods of time - longer than they should - relying on the limited amounts of community Tzedaka), this person is taking funds that, if they were out working, would be available to those who really need it. Not necessarily so in the latter case - the offer ostensibly was only for the grandchild. I see a problem with the former; not the latter.

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  27. "Read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". One of the best (short) books ever written. Seriously."

    I take it you don't intend to buy a home? Rich dad says that's the worst investment...

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  28. AlanLaz - I understand that your example may have been merely illustrative of a mindset, but I see a difference between being "reliant on other peoples' money", and accepting such a gift from a grandparent.

    Agreed. I was only illustrating the mindset, and they *would* have been willing to take the money, and I think that it's fine to take money offered to you without pressure. The issue was if the money would suddenly become unavailable, they would be stuck.

    In the former case (i.e. people learning in Kollel for extended periods of time - longer than they should - relying on the limited amounts of community Tzedaka), this person is taking funds that, if they were out working, would be available to those who really need it. Not necessarily so in the latter case - the offer ostensibly was only for the grandchild. I see a problem with the former; not the latter.

    Agreed. In the former case, even if the money were not needed elsewhere now, it could be saved/invested for the future for when it would be.

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  29. Forgive me if I'd rather follow the advice I've gotten from people who have saved money well, not gotten into debt they didn't need, been quick to get out of debt that they were in, have generally been fiscally savvy, and who now are in a very good place in terms of their finances, who have told me NOT to do all the things you've outlined above, than take the more dubious route of believing in getting into debt that you just don't need.

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  30. Patricia - LOL. Was wondering if someone would say something like that. Not quite what he says... he says it's a poor thing to look at as an investment, as his "poor dad" does. (Right? Or am I flipping that. It's been a while.)

    Regarding a house, think this way: It wouldn't make sense not to have a place to live. Now, figure out where you want to live, what makes sense to live in (rent is throwing money away, usually), and how long you'd like to live there. Plan accordingly.

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  31. Apple - Numbers are numbers. Either you understand them or you don't. If you don't, then yes - just don't spend, save what you can, etc. I don't think you understood anything I wrote above all that well based on your response. Also, chill out a bit, mkay? If you'd read it again, you'd realize that we're agreeing on almost everything, and the little bit that you aren't doesn't make much sense if you do the math.

    AlanLaz - LOL.

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  32. No, you see this is a man who made a lot of money and you believe what he says except you forget that he couldn't have gotten where he got without capital so he must've taken out loans. Was he so smart or just plain lucky?

    Thinking of a house as an "investment" may be a poor idea but by anecdotal evidence look around at the orthodox world's grandparents those that have finished paying off their homes and those that didn't jump into this bad investment. Who's better off today?

    A home is a very expensive very good LOOOOOOOOONG term investment. Not the kind the poor guy who wanted to get rich quick would consider a good investment. Are you looking to get rich or to be able to afford to buy your grandkids crayons and stuffed animals when you visit?

    Can you as a married man with a kid (or two?) afford to take the risks the guy in that book suggests? Probably not.

    I only read that book once so maybe I forget all the details but I didn't go for it.

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  33. There's a difference between taking out loans for an education and for a house. It's rare that anyone can afford a house out of pocket, or that saving for a longer period will help them save the necessary funds. However, a person can easily take a semester or two off from college, get a paid internship, and get both experience and funds at the same time. This is what I was briefly considering. Also, the student could pull his or her belt in a few notches, which most of them don't.

    The logic behind taking out student loans that I hear is nothing so logical as investing it. (Which is really smart. Didn't think of that one.) Generally it's
    "Student loans are the cheapest loans you're ever going to have. Why not enjoy them?"
    "You're always going to be in debt, why not just take out a loan so you have time and money for other things?"
    "You might as well get used to being in debt now, how long do you seriously think you're going to last?"

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  34. ::deletes snarky comment::

    To borrow a phrase...I'm out.

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  35. No, you see this is a man who made a lot of money and you believe what he says except you forget that he couldn't have gotten where he got without capital so he must've taken out loans. Was he so smart or just plain lucky?

    Okay, so what's the issue?

    Thinking of a house as an "investment" may be a poor idea but by anecdotal evidence look around at the orthodox world's grandparents those that have finished paying off their homes and those that didn't jump into this bad investment. Who's better off today?

    Again, see my comment above. I'm betting that those who didn't were either worse off to start (or they'd have bought) or made riskier investments. Personally, I think for a frum Jew in particular, homes are good investments. If you want to stay - great. If you don't - Jewish communities tend to be easier sells than other places.

    A home is a very expensive very good LOOOOOOOOONG term investment. Not the kind the poor guy who wanted to get rich quick would consider a good investment. Are you looking to get rich or to be able to afford to buy your grandkids crayons and stuffed animals when you visit?

    Huh? And who said anything about "getting rich quick"?

    Can you as a married man with a kid (or two?) afford to take the risks the guy in that book suggests? Probably not.

    What risks? I think you should read it again. That's not how I remember it at all.

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  36. Bad4 - I'd never suggest taking out loans to "have fun". That's stupid. Needs or investment only.

    And re: the house, the question is if it's better to not pick up debt (like a mortgage) at all. I just meant that there is such a thing as "good debt". Not all debt is "bad" - it all depends on what it's for and how it's used. Student loans can be if used properly, such as investment, just like a mortgage or as companies do.

    Apple - See above, perhaps that's clearer.

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  37. You quoted Rich Dad Poor Dad and insinuated that it is a book with financially sound advice.

    In a bad economic environment buying a home that was being foreclosed on was a very risky investment. This was one of his first examples. He has a whole spiel on how he figured the market would pick up and he bought foreclosures. Sorry buddy but the higher the risk the higher the return. He is a smart man who got very lucky and wrote a nice book with nothing practical in it. Sort of like Mary Poppins.

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  38. a nice book with nothing practical in it. Sort of like Mary Poppins.

    I beg to differ!
    In my experience a spoonfull of sugar does in fact help the medicine go down...in the most delightful waaaaaaaaaay.

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  39. Uch - that isn't the good part of the book. It's where he compares approaches and talks about rat race vs. sound ideas that's good. The perception parts, the differences between his rich dad and his poor dad - that's what the book is good for. Not buying foreclosed homes (though not a bad idea in some markets if you understand the markets they are in).

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  40. Right. That's how practical the book is. When you were about 18 months old you were begging mom for more bubble gum medicine you didn't need to watch Mary to figure that out. ...or did you?

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  41. Careful now Ms Batton, that's treading awfully close to sincere snarkitude and away from glib banter.

    --and who begs for medicine, bubble-gum or not?

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  42. Um... right, I forgot the Apple:

    English majors can't get paid internships, or at least not ones with much pay, so English majors should definitely take out loans to pay for college.

    Ez - they weren't saying take out loans to have fun, just to let the loan pay for college and to loosen up your personal funds. These students look at their financial aid package and count loans and grants as essentially the same thing. I don't. And I try to take at least half of Polonius's famous advice whenever possible.


    ...the only thing I know about Rich Dad Poor Dad is that we played his Rat Race game one long motzai Shobbos, and the brother who had read the whole stack of investment books always came in last...

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  43. Bad4 - Or jobs! (I kid, I kid... note I'm not one to talk at the moment.)

    And still agree with you on that. If you're going to use it to spend away, don't take the loan. If you're using it to pay down debt, invest safely/wisely, take it.

    LOL on the game. Though he mocks most people's approach to investing, IIRC. Best investment advice I ever read was in the first few pages of Peter Lynch's book. So far, so good: I've never yet lost money on an investment. RDPD is better for the mentality. The Millionaire Next Door is also great for mentality.

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  44. for the record, if memory serves the Rich Dad/Poor Dad guy made most of his fortune by inventing those vinyl velcro wallets.

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  45. Bad4 - BTW, personally, brevity is the soul of wit is my fave of his. But I like all his famous quotes.

    And agree - don't be a borrower or lender. Just be an investor. :)

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  46. a nice book with nothing practical in it. Sort of like Mary Poppins.

    I beg to differ!
    In my experience a spoonfull of sugar does in fact help the medicine go down...in the most delightful waaaaaaaaaay.


    Ahem.

    "In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and - *snap!* - the job's a game!"

    How is that not practical advice???

    I'm with G on this one!!! :D

    English majors can't get paid internships, or at least not ones with much pay, so English majors should definitely take out loans to pay for college.


    Says who? There are definitely paid internships for English majors. They may not be easy to get, but they do exist! People should start remembering that English Professor is by far NOT the only route an English major can go. :)

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  47. Although a mortgage is technically debt, a house is usually a necessary thing to live and it can pay for itself if you run out of money. Basically, when taking out a mortgage, think of it as renting from the bank. If you can't pay anymore than the bank takes the house away just as a landlord will theoretically kick you out if you can't pay rent.

    This is different than other types of debt where you are borrowing money and using it up so that if you were to lose your source of income (job, parents) you would not be able to pay it back. With mortgages the house is the backup plan as opposed to the case of the grandparents paying for an apartment where there is no backup if the grandparents' money would cease to come in.

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  48. About the concept of yeshiva relying on charity.

    Someone told me recently that the current economic crisis might, in some way be a good thing because it will make yeshivas realize that you can't always rely on big donors and should plan accordingly. Perhaps many of the kollels and yeshiva's are "not necessary" and it would be a good thing if some of them closed so that there is more money for the ones that really need it. The people learning in the closed ones can switch to other ones, hence "not necessary". (Of course, there are different types of people who need different types of yeshivas so many of them are "necessary", this is for daas Torah to decide)

    I think that the Rosh Yeshiva ztl said that a yeshiva shouldn't go into debt without a backup plan, in other words more than the yeshiva's total assets are worth. So, for example, if a yeshiva has a $5 million building they can go up to $5 million in debt because they can always rely on selling the building. Anything more than that would be considered relying on miracles. A Rosh Yeshiva must be willing to close down his yeshiva if he no longer has the money to run it. Until then he should have bitchon that Hashem will provide, but he has to understand the difference between bitachon and relying on miracles.

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  49. I agree with Bad4. Choosing a route that doesn't involve college loans is a good idea.

    No, most student loans aren't "bad loans," and sometimes are necessary, but if you have an option that gets you the education you need and want and it doesn't involve loans, that's better.

    Say a person has a choice between buying two houses, and both are good situations, but one is more expensive and in a more prestigious neighborhood. All else being equal, it would make sense to choose the house that involves taking out a smaller mortgage.

    Also, if something goes wrong, in most markets, the house can be sold and the mortgage paid off.

    In this economy, the mortgage is "paid off" by the bank taking the house in foreclosure. There are costs involved and damage done by foreclosure, but the loan is no longer owed, because of the collateral.

    With student loans, there is not tangible collateral. The idea instead is that post-education, the borrower will be able to obtain a job that pays a salary commensurate with the amount borrowed. This often does not happen, the former student has debts that cannot be repaid, and the education can not be sold to someone else or turned over to the lender to repay the debt.

    A person already paying rent can figure about how much he can afford in mortgage and other associated monthly payments. A person entering higher education has a much more difficult time guessing how much he will be able to afford in loan repayments years later, as there are way too many variables. A good job is not guaranteed, and even graduation isn't.

    Owning is better than renting in most cases, but for someone who is not paying rent for some reason or another to take on a mortgage is different, as it isn't substituting for rent.

    Student loans are an investment in one's future. But they are a risk. They aren't substituting for another cost currently being paid. Rather, they are an investment that one hopes will lead to a more profitable future.

    For many, a loan, even a wise loan, can feel like a weight. Even if it means nothing bad financially, it feels better not to have even good debt, and that is a valid feeling that, while it shouldn't decide everything, can enter into the decision.

    Investing the loan offered is an intriguing idea. One could certainly establish good credit that way, if one were careful. But generally it would just be a headache.

    It could also raise questions that could interfere with other financial dealings.

    The money might be tucked away and intended not to be spent, but other entities examining the borrower's finances will only see available funds. In an emergency, this could turn into an awful situation.

    Having money that you can't consider to actually have but to anyone examining your finances looks like available funds and not like funds in retirement accounts or escrow could prove disastrous.

    And of course, if the money is just held onto, it would only be offered that one time, as subsequent financial aid applications would see the savings and decline further loans.

    In fact, a person could be offered a package that includes grants and loans, decide he can get by without the loans, accept the loans and invest the money, and then the next year when his financial profile reflects the invested loan money he would not even be offered the grants.

    I do not think taking student loans is a bad thing. The programs available in this country provide opportunities that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

    But coming up with a plan that alleviates the need to take loans can be even better! Whether by recognizing that a good education can be gotten at a less prestigious school for less money, by belt-tightening, by working to pay for school, if it can be done reasonably, it is a smart move.

    Above all, people who might take loans need to be taught how to compare offers and opportunities and risks and consequences. Students are too often led to look only at the out-of-pocket costs. Certainly it is better to pay slightly higher out of pocket and end up with much less in the way of loans later. People need to be taught why a student loan might be a wise choice so they can make informed choices instead of letting them just glean that debt is the way to get what they need with no differentiation between student loans and credit card debt.
    I applaud Bad4 for actually considering the consequences of taking loans instead of just considering it free money that everyone takes to pay for school and that can always be paid back later no problem.

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  50. Anonymous -

    Yeah, that's what I mean. ;-) Or must have meant. Or would have meant if I'd have had time to think it through.

    Ok - actually, I forgot about the bank account analysis they do on you to decide the grants, though in recent years, when my balance dropped, they didn't increase my grants, just offered me work-study in addition to the grants and loans. I wish I knew how their calculator worked.

    And I cringe whenever I see someone taking out a loan for higher education when I know they're not going to get a job that will pay it back after. I mean, there are some people who set their sights higher than they should, and they can do it because of the belief that everyone should be able to get higher education. Thus, a friend who received spec ed tutoring through her career took out loans to get a masters in special ed, and wound up a kindergarten assistant in a tiny spec ed school. Ouch.

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  51. Erachet - Feh to English majors.

    Josh - Agreed. Particularly if the mortgage + maintenance is less than rent, it makes sense to buy if one can. And of course, building long-lasting equity is certainly a good thing.

    Re: Charity - amazing comment.

    Anon - I agree with Bad4 as well. Again, I was responding specifically to people who would be using the money wisely. People should never be taking loans out for non-necessities. One very good point is if it will affect your later grants, which the $5k is unlikely to, but of course should be looked into. For one's last year in college, it wouldn't make a difference. (Also, if you're really on top of it, you could cash in each year's at the end of the school year, pay it back, and take out anew. 9-month CDs, woo!)

    Bad4 - Amen on the loans for jobs that won't be able to cover it. Very common in the frum community, where people have very grandiose ideas of what they're going to do (and make!) after they graduate.

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  52. I'm with G on this one!!! :D
    -Erachet


    Hmmm, perhaps I need to reconsider...

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  53. Hmmm, perhaps I need to reconsider...
    -G


    Hmmmm, how can I use the fact that G finds it disconcerting if I agree with him to my advantage?

    :D

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  54. Regarding Ezzie and Apple's conversations:

    Ezzie makes a case that might make sense mathematically (once risk is factored in, that is debatable). But personal finance is much more than crunching numbers.

    There is a concept called a "taste of credit." I recently watched a documentary on credit and learned that those who recently bankrupted will soon have their mail filled with credit card offers. They might be risky borrowers, but they have have a "taste for credit."

    I'm old fashioned. I do not think it is a good idea to take out debt, even if the numbers crunch positively. I think college loan debt is very risky and think students should think twice. I do not think it is a good idea for high schoolers to be playing grown up with their parent's credit cards. A checkbook and/or cash is more age appropriate. I think college students should carry a checkbook or a debit card, rather than a credit card.

    My advice on credit cards: don't get a credit card until you have established regular and predictable spending patterns. When you are still learning the ropes of budgeting, cash and checks are best.

    Just my 2 cents.

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  55. SL - Note that that's pretty much what the conversation was.

    I'm old fashioned. I do not think it is a good idea to take out debt, even if the numbers crunch positively.

    Which is pretty much the disagreement. I think that if a person is responsible enough (and the original comment was toward someone who is), it's a relatively simple thing to do. It's probably ironic that the same people who are most able to do such a thing responsibly are the ones who are most wary of doing so - but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea, just one that someone doesn't trust themselves or others to do properly.

    In the original comment I said: "It doesn't mean you *should* take them, but there's more than just the debt vs. not side of the equation." and earlier had written "if you are using your money wisely". If a person is not doing so, then certainly they should not take out loans they don't need.

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