Wow, the comments there are fun. I've finally decided (okay, I've been leaning this way for a while) that Stupid Jews are the #1 cause of people going off the derech. Ugh.
I hate (really really really hate) to find sense in what The Yeshiva World news says, but.... texting really IS a major problem for teenagers. As the mother of two teens, the aunt of 3 teens, and a former high school teacher, I can tell you that many teenagers really do get addicted to text messaging. They do it constantly- in class, during davening, at the dinner table, in the middle of the night... It is very addictive and distracting to them, and some kids do text each other dirty messages and naked pictures. So while the article is exaggerating the danger, there is some truth to it. I have given my kids cellphones, but do not have text messaging on my plan. I told them that if they use their phones to text, I will take them away. And they know that I mean business.
I agree - texting IS bad. Not necessarily for the reasons quoted in the article, but the fact is that it is an addictive and distracting behavior. Not to mention that it promotes bad spelling and grammar! The horrors!
But I really hate reading these stories about parents who "give in" to something and then are totally shocked when there is a bad consequence. Like, WAKE UP!
SR - Oh, I'll agree that texting can be a problem, and that I'm not sure why teens should have cells if they're in school for sure, and perhaps even at all. That said, reading the way these things are presented and exaggerated and just a lot of the nonsense is hilarious/sad.
You have a purveyor of Kosher Phones serving as the "expert" opinion on something that would be getting him lots of business. You have the stories of kids who started texting and two months later, they were OTD and completely messed up for life. You have the "texting is worse than drugs" comments, and they don't mean it as a way of making a point, but they're serious. That's what I meant by Stupid Jews: It's as if scaring people like they're 4 years old and using lies on adults is going to really get them to change.
Not to mention that it promotes bad spelling and grammar! The horrors!
Oy.
I've found that in the crowd the article is referring to, it's not the texting that causes it.
But I really hate reading these stories about parents who "give in" to something and then are totally shocked when there is a bad consequence. Like, WAKE UP!
Amen.
Though that might explain my wonderment at why people use these tactics: If the parents are too stupid to think through things on their own, then shouting things like this at them would probably work. And if these are their kids, maybe it would work on them, too. :::SO SAD:::
I feel bad for people who is deaf and depend on text to clarify the misunderstood conversation who followed moral/halacha/ethic of yeshiva world magizine. Look i used text as good thing in my life but for teen who send naked pictures or cursing in text, if you take away from them they will find other way like email or person! Cell phone is not problem it is person itself, you could use it as good thing not bad thing
I must interrupt this harmless conversation to declare that Chareidism has officially taken over Orthodoxy and the rest of us are merely deluding ourselves into thinking we are still in the game. My friends, we are playing a different game on a completely different field and I grow increasingly sick about it.
Because of the prevalence of forwarding jokes via text, it is not uncommon for a joke from a girl to reach that of an unknown boy – perhaps a brother’s friend. A casual response “liked your joke!” can be enough to trigger a relationship that can result in tragedy.
I'm sorry...that sounds like it's straight out of a color war parody skit or something.
Also, is it just me or did everyone's blog names just get huge? Or were the first letters not always capitalized? Something feels different around here. Hmmm.
Ezzie-Your comment about Stupid Jews is both funny and very sad but true. Ayy ya yay. Reading that post, I can only hope that some of it was mueant as a joke. Sadly, I know that it was not. Text messaging is the no. 1 danger to frum kids today? Have they heard of sexual abuse? Clearly not.
:::SHHH!!!::: We don't talk about it! It might ruin shidduchim!* [/sarcasm]
* Lest anyone think I'm just parroting stuff people say, the reason an abuser I know is not in jail is because people would not testify for that very reason.
Without siding with either party here, is there any to'eles in this discussion? I think we all agree that Loshon Hora is assur and bashing other Jews is not going to bring Moshiach any closer.
The reason I wrote what I wrote is because it amazes me how people find this stuff entertaining. Even, when people say that they find it sad, there is still no clear purpose to discussing it. It somehow minimizes its importance like when you make fun of your teacher. I am heartbroken over what has become of my frum brothers and sisters and I worry about their kids all the time. The complete erosion of priorities and the waste of money (kosher cell phones cost more) is just staggeringly depressing. Why read Yeshiva World and joke about it? It's the majority of Frum people today. How is that funny?
Anon Mom-it's not so much funny as funny in a sad way. It's incredibly distressing that this is where we've come to in Orthodox Judaism. Bloggers sometimes feel the need to express their feelings about this insanity. I'd suggest staying off blogs if that upsets you.
Jewboy--As distressing as it may be to you, I have yet to see that as a heter for speaking Loshon Horah. I don't claim to be an expert in Hilchos Shmiras Haloshon but I do learn 2 halachos daily and have finished Guard Your Tongue at least 5 times by now and did not see that distress makes it mutar to bash other groups. If you can tell me where it says this, I'll stand corrected.
As an aside, I've always liked this blog for the high quality of the posts. Some are intelligent, others are funny, but all are interesting and enjoyable to read. Except every now and then, there's a Chareidi-bashing post which IMO detracts from the level of the whole blog. It's usually not an intelligent discussion--it's always a pointless mocking post with no content to it. The attitude behind it is always one of cynicism and looking down upon others. Why can't people just accept that there are different types of Jews out there and not everyone has to be the same? Just because people have different views than you do, it doesn't make them any stupider or less valuable than you. On the contrary, the manner in which they're discussed just makes the posters look bad. You don't agree with them, then don't do as they say, but what's the point in making fun?
it's always a pointless mocking post with no content to it. The attitude behind it is always one of cynicism
you say that like it's a bad thing.
looking down upon others.
Bzzzzz, sorry - guess again. You must have us confused with someone else. No looking down, just passing along the facts and allow people to decide for themselves. Novel concept, I know...we're kinda crazy that way.
Why can't people just accept that there are different types of Jews out there and not everyone has to be the same? Just because people have different views than you do, it doesn't make them any stupider or less valuable than you.
I could not agree more - oddly enough, most of the posts that you find objectionable are coming to show the abscence of this way of thinking in the public at large.
On the contrary, the manner in which they're discussed just makes the posters look bad.
Well!...now you've gone and hurt my feelings.
You don't agree with them, then don't do as they say, but what's the point in making fun?
You're right, I don't...and I don't. I thought it was funny and hopefully made a few people smile...that's usually reason enough for me.
G--I don't have time now to respond to your comment at length but I still have one question: Where does it say that all that you wrote makes it mutar to speak loshon hora? Even if the chareidim are 100% wrong and you're 100% right, since when does that make it okay to speak about them?
And to answer your last question--no, venting did not feel good in this case. I'm so not a preacher but I just couldn't take it anymore and that was why I did it. And I'm still irked, especially because I see that some people aren't open-minded enough to look at things objectively and admit that maybe what they're doing is wrong.
One last thing: Read your original post again and tell me if you're 100% sure that you're not looking down upon them. I find it a rather strange way to just "present the facts". But you do know when you're being honest or not so I don't think I need to explain further.
Anon - I do think that there is plenty of open-mindedness among the people here to discuss whether or not something is wrong.
As an aside, I've always liked this blog for the high quality of the posts. Some are intelligent, others are funny, but all are interesting and enjoyable to read.
All seriousness, thank you!
Except every now and then, there's a Chareidi-bashing post which IMO detracts from the level of the whole blog. It's usually not an intelligent discussion--it's always a pointless mocking post with no content to it.
I'm going to disagree on two points (at least).
I don't think the posts are "Charedi-bashing" (even G's, though he might disagree, I'm not sure). I've had someone make that claim once before, and I asked for examples, and never really received them. There are certainly criticisms of the Charedi community, as there are of any community; perhaps more often, either because there are more things worth criticizing or because I'm more familiar with it.
Mocking, meanwhile (and here I'm going to assume you're referring mostly to G's posts), is simultaneously entertaining (which I'd say is his primary intent) while also making sharp points about what's going on or simply showing you what's happening. This post, for example, said nothing but "Ah! Run!" while linking to a thread on Yeshiva World. Surely one cannot argue that the people on YW don't intend for their posts to be seen or spread; they legitimately feel that their approach is correct. For those of us who disagree, it's yet another sad turn.
If you're viewing it as Loshon Hara, it seems - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you're essentially arguing that they are definitely wrong in their views, and because they're wrong, we cannot talk about it, since we're pointing out something bad about them. (?)
Why can't people just accept that there are different types of Jews out there and not everyone has to be the same?
Very much agreed!
Just because people have different views than you do, it doesn't make them any stupider or less valuable than you.
I have to disagree on stupider depending on the view. Most of the time, you are correct. Some views, however, I think qualify as stupidity. Perhaps there is a reason for such stupidity, but it is stupidity nonetheless. I do not believe in the idea that *every* viewpoint has legitimacy and that no suggestion is stupid.
On the contrary, the manner in which they're discussed just makes the posters look bad. You don't agree with them, then don't do as they say, but what's the point in making fun?
Depends what your point is. Do you not think that pointing out the negative aspects of a community serve as a warning to those both within and outside said community to be wary of what goes on?
I hate to post and run because I have to much to reply to here but I'm going to have to do that because I have kids to bed. Firstly, I want to suggest that everyone here brush up on their knowledge of Hilchos Shmiras Haloshon because it's evident from some of the comments here that it might be necessary. Secondly, I'd like to reply specifically to this comment:
"If you're viewing it as Loshon Hara, it seems - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you're essentially arguing that they are definitely wrong in their views, and because they're wrong, we cannot talk about it, since we're pointing out something bad about them. (?)"
If you look in the Guard Your Tongue, (I don't have it near me or I'd tell you exactly where,) you'll see that it's assur to mention or show a letter or other publication for the purpose of making fun, either of the content or of the way that it's written. This has nothing to do with the way that *I* view their opinions. It has solely to do with the way it was portrayed here. YWN has no problem with anyone reading their articles but to link to it in such a fashion (with derisive comments) is forbidden.
I'll make one more comment for now: "Do you not think that pointing out the negative aspects of a community serve as a warning to those both within and outside said community to be wary of what goes on?"
Again, whip out your Shmiras Haloshon or your Guard Your Tongue and refer to it before deciding that this makes it mutar. What are you trying to do here? Warn people to stay away from the chareidim because they're dangerous? I don't think so. Warn people that they might be influenced negatively by being chareidi or by learning from them? In this case, there are multiple conditions that apply before it becomes mutar for you to go ahead and talk about it to others. I suggest you take a look for yourself.
OK, one last thing (I can't count). Referring to people as "Stupid Jews" is derogatory no matter how you look at it and even if you feel that it's true, for whatever reason, I don't think you can argue that this would not qualify as Loshon Hora. Even if you would meet all the conditions for spreading something around to "warn people", it would absolutely be assur to use the term "Stupid Jews".
People, just know that I really don't like to lecture or preach but Klal Yisroel is in a sorry state and I really don't think we can afford to treat other Jews in such a manner. And even if you feel that it's their fault, it doesn't justify talking badly about them.
It has solely to do with the way it was portrayed here. YWN has no problem with anyone reading their articles but to link to it in such a fashion (with derisive comments) is forbidden.
Again, where was it linked with derisive comments? It's linked. Then people make comments about the situation, and those will be negative if they think it's a negative thing. I do think such comments are appropriate. I think you might be misunderstanding Shmiras HaLashon* and how it's applied. If you've ever gone to a shiur where things are criticized you would theoretically have the same problem; why bring something up only to criticize?
What are you trying to do here? Warn people to stay away from the chareidim because they're dangerous? I don't think so. Warn people that they might be influenced negatively by being chareidi or by learning from them? In this case, there are multiple conditions that apply before it becomes mutar for you to go ahead and talk about it to others. I suggest you take a look for yourself.
Mostly the latter. I don't think that Charedim are dangerous in the slightest (except perhaps some practices may eventually hurt themselves and by extension the entire community). I am aware that multiple conditions apply in normal private situations. Far less conditions apply by definition when we are discussing a) public items b) communal issues c) things which affect the community and would affect how people associate themselves with the community (slightly different from b), etc.
* A fantastic guide (meant for kids, but actually quite good for adults) is "We Want Life", a book based on Hilchos Lashon Hara, IIRC.
Also, I believe (and may be incorrect) that Guard Your Tongue was only meant as a guide, and I'm not sure it was meant as a final arbiter on what is and is not halacha regarding lashon hara. Common sense applies here as well.
OK, one last thing (I can't count). Referring to people as "Stupid Jews" is derogatory no matter how you look at it and even if you feel that it's true, for whatever reason, I don't think you can argue that this would not qualify as Loshon Hora. Even if you would meet all the conditions for spreading something around to "warn people", it would absolutely be assur to use the term "Stupid Jews".
VERY much disagree. I am making a specific point to create a new group of people who simply have no clue regarding halacha, common sense, and the like. This is not specific to Charedim or MO or anyone else; this is people who are simply moronic in their approach to Judaism to the point that they are driving the rest of the people away.
People, just know that I really don't like to lecture or preach but Klal Yisroel is in a sorry state and I really don't think we can afford to treat other Jews in such a manner. And even if you feel that it's their fault, it doesn't justify talking badly about them.
I'm sorry but I fail to see how this could be true. If you truly felt something was a problem, you could have easily emailed privately, and chose not to do so. That you immediately and anonymously wrote public comments make you as guilty as you claim we are here (if you are correct), while I put my name on everything I write here and do not feel it is incorrect. Certainly you can disagree on the interpretation of what should and should not be written, but if you feel this way, you should not have written a comment at all.
>People, just know that I really don't like to lecture or preach but Klal Yisroel is in a sorry state and I really don't think we can afford to treat other Jews in such a manner. And even if you feel that it's their fault, it doesn't justify talking badly about them.
HA!
Ofcourse it does. Look, maybe in times when people aren't causing our religion to go down in the dump, we can act nicer. But we live in a time, when groups of Jews are molesting children, creating ridiculous chumrot and slowly tightening the noose around peoples necks. Yet they hide behind the protective curtain that forbids others from speaking about them. Yes, they are stupid, yes they are dangerous and I see no problem calling them out on this. One of my greatest wishes is to rid Klal Israel of people that are destroying our religion from the inside.
Anon Mom-Again, if you wish to avoid what you look at as loshon hora, I'd suggest staying off blogs if you feel that blogs do indeed, promote loshon hora. As it happens, I've learned Sefer Chafetz Chaim several times myself, but that's an aside. What you seem to be mistaken about is the intent of posting this kind of stuff-it's not to "bash" but to show how far the charedi establishment has fallen-perhaps you haven't seen the effects this kind of stuff is happening, and maybe you have, but I assure you that I have. These kind of gatherings to discuss things like text messaging while other issues like, I don't know, sexual molestation, go un discussed, is a symptom of that has occurred-the charedi establishment has simply lost its way, and is so unnerved by the modern world that is taking counterproductive, and yes, downright stupid steps to combat that modern world.
I, for one, am thankful that blogs have indeed shown me that not everyone has followed these party lines.
Naps are overrated. Sleep in! It's much more conducive to a good day. Plus, how can you nap when:
Sunday: Football. Monday - Thursday: Markets are open/job/watching kids, followed by NFL (M, Th - only eating allowed), NBA (while you do other things), or MLB (while you do other things). Friday: Market/Work/Kids/Shabbos Prep.
Shabbos, of course, allows for naps, but that's completely different.
Hey, Jewboy, I never brought up Loshon Harah. You're confusing me with the other anonymous. I just mean that I read here from time to time these venting sessions about the Chareidim and it seems sadly mocking. I just think it's sad. Hence I don't mock. And, I think we both agree that it's cool to vent so I'm venting about the mocking of what I think is beyond heartbreaking for my people. Funny, that my venting caused you to threaten me off the blog. Interesting.
Here's why I don't think it's funny. (NOT BECAUSE OF LOSHON HARA). a. the insanity of the right is seeping into the middle and trickling into the left. Even Y.U. isn't safe. b. i can't even move out of NY and live in peace because the Chareidim are taking over the day schools out of town and running down whatever normal day schools there actually are. c. my kids' Rebbes don't even have email at home (MO day school) I'm freaking furious. Hence, I don't mock. But, I'm sorry. I'll be furious in silence or go to an angry blog. There are plenty of those nasty ones out there.
Anon Mom - FWIW, I e-mailed Jewboy after his last comment noting that he was mixing up the anons, and he apologized - he thought it was all the same anon (you).
Kosher Cell PHone: Thanks, Ezzie. You guys are largely people I like (in a blogosphere sort of way). My friend (out of town, mind you) called me a couple of months ago distraught over her son's Yeshiva insisting that all the family's purchase these kosher cell phones. She is a reasonable person and she and her husband make a middle class living. She is annoyed that she has to pay for it, but of course, she feels powerless. How can we help these people take back control? If this is too serious, I understand. But I wish I knew how to end this insanity.
Anon Mom-Sorry about the confusion. All these anons do get me unsure. I never meant to threaten you off blogs. However, my usual response to people who don't like some thing on a blog is, it's your choice to be on the blog or not. That's what I was trying to convey to you.
It seems you and I agree on a lot of these matters. Let us not be foes then.
I saw that yesterday and wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry. That happens a lot on YW.
ReplyDeleteWow, the comments there are fun. I've finally decided (okay, I've been leaning this way for a while) that Stupid Jews are the #1 cause of people going off the derech. Ugh.
ReplyDeleteCan't. Stop. Laughing.
ReplyDeleteI hate (really really really hate) to find sense in what The Yeshiva World news says, but....
ReplyDeletetexting really IS a major problem for teenagers. As the mother of two teens, the aunt of 3 teens, and a former high school teacher, I can tell you that many teenagers really do get addicted to text messaging. They do it constantly- in class, during davening, at the dinner table, in the middle of the night...
It is very addictive and distracting to them, and some kids do text each other dirty messages and naked pictures.
So while the article is exaggerating the danger, there is some truth to it.
I have given my kids cellphones, but do not have text messaging on my plan. I told them that if they use their phones to text, I will take them away. And they know that I mean business.
I agree - texting IS bad. Not necessarily for the reasons quoted in the article, but the fact is that it is an addictive and distracting behavior. Not to mention that it promotes bad spelling and grammar! The horrors!
ReplyDeleteBut I really hate reading these stories about parents who "give in" to something and then are totally shocked when there is a bad consequence. Like, WAKE UP!
SR - Oh, I'll agree that texting can be a problem, and that I'm not sure why teens should have cells if they're in school for sure, and perhaps even at all. That said, reading the way these things are presented and exaggerated and just a lot of the nonsense is hilarious/sad.
ReplyDeleteYou have a purveyor of Kosher Phones serving as the "expert" opinion on something that would be getting him lots of business. You have the stories of kids who started texting and two months later, they were OTD and completely messed up for life. You have the "texting is worse than drugs" comments, and they don't mean it as a way of making a point, but they're serious. That's what I meant by Stupid Jews: It's as if scaring people like they're 4 years old and using lies on adults is going to really get them to change.
Not to mention that it promotes bad spelling and grammar! The horrors!
ReplyDeleteOy.
I've found that in the crowd the article is referring to, it's not the texting that causes it.
But I really hate reading these stories about parents who "give in" to something and then are totally shocked when there is a bad consequence. Like, WAKE UP!
Amen.
Though that might explain my wonderment at why people use these tactics: If the parents are too stupid to think through things on their own, then shouting things like this at them would probably work. And if these are their kids, maybe it would work on them, too. :::SO SAD:::
I feel bad for people who is deaf and depend on text to clarify the misunderstood conversation who followed moral/halacha/ethic of yeshiva world magizine. Look i used text as good thing in my life but for teen who send naked pictures or cursing in text, if you take away from them they will find other way like email or person! Cell phone is not problem it is person itself, you could use it as good thing not bad thing
ReplyDeleteTypical.
ReplyDeleteI must interrupt this harmless conversation to declare that Chareidism has officially taken over Orthodoxy and the rest of us are merely deluding ourselves into thinking we are still in the game. My friends, we are playing a different game on a completely different field and I grow increasingly sick about it.
ReplyDeleteBecause of the prevalence of forwarding jokes via text, it is not uncommon for a joke from a girl to reach that of an unknown boy – perhaps a brother’s friend. A casual response “liked your joke!” can be enough to trigger a relationship that can result in tragedy.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry...that sounds like it's straight out of a color war parody skit or something.
Also, is it just me or did everyone's blog names just get huge? Or were the first letters not always capitalized? Something feels different around here. Hmmm.
Yes! I knew it! Capital letters! How did THAT happen?!
ReplyDeleteAh, Google and its mysterious ways...
ReplyDeleteEzzie-Your comment about Stupid Jews is both funny and very sad but true. Ayy ya yay. Reading that post, I can only hope that some of it was mueant as a joke. Sadly, I know that it was not. Text messaging is the no. 1 danger to frum kids today? Have they heard of sexual abuse? Clearly not.
ReplyDelete:::SHHH!!!::: We don't talk about it! It might ruin shidduchim!* [/sarcasm]
ReplyDelete* Lest anyone think I'm just parroting stuff people say, the reason an abuser I know is not in jail is because people would not testify for that very reason.
Without siding with either party here, is there any to'eles in this discussion? I think we all agree that Loshon Hora is assur and bashing other Jews is not going to bring Moshiach any closer.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I wrote what I wrote is because it amazes me how people find this stuff entertaining. Even, when people say that they find it sad, there is still no clear purpose to discussing it. It somehow minimizes its importance like when you make fun of your teacher. I am heartbroken over what has become of my frum brothers and sisters and I worry about their kids all the time. The complete erosion of priorities and the waste of money (kosher cell phones cost more) is just staggeringly depressing. Why read Yeshiva World and joke about it? It's the majority of Frum people today. How is that funny?
ReplyDeleteAnon Mom-it's not so much funny as funny in a sad way. It's incredibly distressing that this is where we've come to in Orthodox Judaism. Bloggers sometimes feel the need to express their feelings about this insanity. I'd suggest staying off blogs if that upsets you.
ReplyDeleteJewboy--As distressing as it may be to you, I have yet to see that as a heter for speaking Loshon Horah. I don't claim to be an expert in Hilchos Shmiras Haloshon but I do learn 2 halachos daily and have finished Guard Your Tongue at least 5 times by now and did not see that distress makes it mutar to bash other groups. If you can tell me where it says this, I'll stand corrected.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, I've always liked this blog for the high quality of the posts. Some are intelligent, others are funny, but all are interesting and enjoyable to read. Except every now and then, there's a Chareidi-bashing post which IMO detracts from the level of the whole blog. It's usually not an intelligent discussion--it's always a pointless mocking post with no content to it. The attitude behind it is always one of cynicism and looking down upon others. Why can't people just accept that there are different types of Jews out there and not everyone has to be the same? Just because people have different views than you do, it doesn't make them any stupider or less valuable than you. On the contrary, the manner in which they're discussed just makes the posters look bad. You don't agree with them, then don't do as they say, but what's the point in making fun?
Off my soapbox now. Thanks for letting me vent.
it's always a pointless mocking post with no content to it. The attitude behind it is always one of cynicism
ReplyDeleteyou say that like it's a bad thing.
looking down upon others.
Bzzzzz, sorry - guess again. You must have us confused with someone else. No looking down, just passing along the facts and allow people to decide for themselves. Novel concept, I know...we're kinda crazy that way.
Why can't people just accept that there are different types of Jews out there and not everyone has to be the same? Just because people have different views than you do, it doesn't make them any stupider or less valuable than you.
I could not agree more - oddly enough, most of the posts that you find objectionable are coming to show the abscence of this way of thinking in the public at large.
On the contrary, the manner in which they're discussed just makes the posters look bad.
Well!...now you've gone and hurt my feelings.
You don't agree with them, then don't do as they say, but what's the point in making fun?
You're right, I don't...and I don't. I thought it was funny and hopefully made a few people smile...that's usually reason enough for me.
almost forgot...didn't that venting feel just a liiiiitle good?
ReplyDeleteSame concept.
G--I don't have time now to respond to your comment at length but I still have one question: Where does it say that all that you wrote makes it mutar to speak loshon hora? Even if the chareidim are 100% wrong and you're 100% right, since when does that make it okay to speak about them?
ReplyDeleteAnd to answer your last question--no, venting did not feel good in this case. I'm so not a preacher but I just couldn't take it anymore and that was why I did it. And I'm still irked, especially because I see that some people aren't open-minded enough to look at things objectively and admit that maybe what they're doing is wrong.
One last thing: Read your original post again and tell me if you're 100% sure that you're not looking down upon them. I find it a rather strange way to just "present the facts". But you do know when you're being honest or not so I don't think I need to explain further.
ReplyDeleteI spoke not about anyone. I said not about any particular position.
ReplyDeleteI poked a little fun at the manner in which the position was bein presented.
Relax
I see that some people aren't open-minded enough to look at things objectively and admit that maybe what they're doing is wrong.
Again, I could not agree more. It's a shame you cannot see the irony.
Read your original post again and tell me if you're 100% sure that you're not looking down upon them.
I have, and i am.
I find it a rather strange way to just "present the facts".
More is the pity, it's called having a sense of humor
But you do know when you're being honest or not so I don't think I need to explain further.
right, got it
Anon - I do think that there is plenty of open-mindedness among the people here to discuss whether or not something is wrong.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, I've always liked this blog for the high quality of the posts. Some are intelligent, others are funny, but all are interesting and enjoyable to read.
All seriousness, thank you!
Except every now and then, there's a Chareidi-bashing post which IMO detracts from the level of the whole blog. It's usually not an intelligent discussion--it's always a pointless mocking post with no content to it.
I'm going to disagree on two points (at least).
I don't think the posts are "Charedi-bashing" (even G's, though he might disagree, I'm not sure). I've had someone make that claim once before, and I asked for examples, and never really received them. There are certainly criticisms of the Charedi community, as there are of any community; perhaps more often, either because there are more things worth criticizing or because I'm more familiar with it.
Mocking, meanwhile (and here I'm going to assume you're referring mostly to G's posts), is simultaneously entertaining (which I'd say is his primary intent) while also making sharp points about what's going on or simply showing you what's happening. This post, for example, said nothing but "Ah! Run!" while linking to a thread on Yeshiva World. Surely one cannot argue that the people on YW don't intend for their posts to be seen or spread; they legitimately feel that their approach is correct. For those of us who disagree, it's yet another sad turn.
If you're viewing it as Loshon Hara, it seems - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you're essentially arguing that they are definitely wrong in their views, and because they're wrong, we cannot talk about it, since we're pointing out something bad about them. (?)
Why can't people just accept that there are different types of Jews out there and not everyone has to be the same?
Very much agreed!
Just because people have different views than you do, it doesn't make them any stupider or less valuable than you.
I have to disagree on stupider depending on the view. Most of the time, you are correct. Some views, however, I think qualify as stupidity. Perhaps there is a reason for such stupidity, but it is stupidity nonetheless. I do not believe in the idea that *every* viewpoint has legitimacy and that no suggestion is stupid.
On the contrary, the manner in which they're discussed just makes the posters look bad. You don't agree with them, then don't do as they say, but what's the point in making fun?
Depends what your point is. Do you not think that pointing out the negative aspects of a community serve as a warning to those both within and outside said community to be wary of what goes on?
I hate to post and run because I have to much to reply to here but I'm going to have to do that because I have kids to bed. Firstly, I want to suggest that everyone here brush up on their knowledge of Hilchos Shmiras Haloshon because it's evident from some of the comments here that it might be necessary. Secondly, I'd like to reply specifically to this comment:
ReplyDelete"If you're viewing it as Loshon Hara, it seems - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you're essentially arguing that they are definitely wrong in their views, and because they're wrong, we cannot talk about it, since we're pointing out something bad about them. (?)"
If you look in the Guard Your Tongue, (I don't have it near me or I'd tell you exactly where,) you'll see that it's assur to mention or show a letter or other publication for the purpose of making fun, either of the content or of the way that it's written. This has nothing to do with the way that *I* view their opinions. It has solely to do with the way it was portrayed here. YWN has no problem with anyone reading their articles but to link to it in such a fashion (with derisive comments) is forbidden.
I'll make one more comment for now:
"Do you not think that pointing out the negative aspects of a community serve as a warning to those both within and outside said community to be wary of what goes on?"
Again, whip out your Shmiras Haloshon or your Guard Your Tongue and refer to it before deciding that this makes it mutar. What are you trying to do here? Warn people to stay away from the chareidim because they're dangerous? I don't think so. Warn people that they might be influenced negatively by being chareidi or by learning from them? In this case, there are multiple conditions that apply before it becomes mutar for you to go ahead and talk about it to others. I suggest you take a look for yourself.
OK, one last thing (I can't count). Referring to people as "Stupid Jews" is derogatory no matter how you look at it and even if you feel that it's true, for whatever reason, I don't think you can argue that this would not qualify as Loshon Hora. Even if you would meet all the conditions for spreading something around to "warn people", it would absolutely be assur to use the term "Stupid Jews".
ReplyDeletePeople, just know that I really don't like to lecture or preach but Klal Yisroel is in a sorry state and I really don't think we can afford to treat other Jews in such a manner. And even if you feel that it's their fault, it doesn't justify talking badly about them.
It has solely to do with the way it was portrayed here. YWN has no problem with anyone reading their articles but to link to it in such a fashion (with derisive comments) is forbidden.
ReplyDeleteAgain, where was it linked with derisive comments? It's linked. Then people make comments about the situation, and those will be negative if they think it's a negative thing. I do think such comments are appropriate. I think you might be misunderstanding Shmiras HaLashon* and how it's applied. If you've ever gone to a shiur where things are criticized you would theoretically have the same problem; why bring something up only to criticize?
What are you trying to do here? Warn people to stay away from the chareidim because they're dangerous? I don't think so. Warn people that they might be influenced negatively by being chareidi or by learning from them? In this case, there are multiple conditions that apply before it becomes mutar for you to go ahead and talk about it to others. I suggest you take a look for yourself.
Mostly the latter. I don't think that Charedim are dangerous in the slightest (except perhaps some practices may eventually hurt themselves and by extension the entire community). I am aware that multiple conditions apply in normal private situations. Far less conditions apply by definition when we are discussing a) public items b) communal issues c) things which affect the community and would affect how people associate themselves with the community (slightly different from b), etc.
* A fantastic guide (meant for kids, but actually quite good for adults) is "We Want Life", a book based on Hilchos Lashon Hara, IIRC.
Also, I believe (and may be incorrect) that Guard Your Tongue was only meant as a guide, and I'm not sure it was meant as a final arbiter on what is and is not halacha regarding lashon hara. Common sense applies here as well.
OK, one last thing (I can't count). Referring to people as "Stupid Jews" is derogatory no matter how you look at it and even if you feel that it's true, for whatever reason, I don't think you can argue that this would not qualify as Loshon Hora. Even if you would meet all the conditions for spreading something around to "warn people", it would absolutely be assur to use the term "Stupid Jews".
ReplyDeleteVERY much disagree. I am making a specific point to create a new group of people who simply have no clue regarding halacha, common sense, and the like. This is not specific to Charedim or MO or anyone else; this is people who are simply moronic in their approach to Judaism to the point that they are driving the rest of the people away.
People, just know that I really don't like to lecture or preach but Klal Yisroel is in a sorry state and I really don't think we can afford to treat other Jews in such a manner. And even if you feel that it's their fault, it doesn't justify talking badly about them.
I'm sorry but I fail to see how this could be true. If you truly felt something was a problem, you could have easily emailed privately, and chose not to do so. That you immediately and anonymously wrote public comments make you as guilty as you claim we are here (if you are correct), while I put my name on everything I write here and do not feel it is incorrect. Certainly you can disagree on the interpretation of what should and should not be written, but if you feel this way, you should not have written a comment at all.
>People, just know that I really don't like to lecture or preach but Klal Yisroel is in a sorry state and I really don't think we can afford to treat other Jews in such a manner. And even if you feel that it's their fault, it doesn't justify talking badly about them.
ReplyDeleteHA!
Ofcourse it does. Look, maybe in times when people aren't causing our religion to go down in the dump, we can act nicer. But we live in a time, when groups of Jews are molesting children, creating ridiculous chumrot and slowly tightening the noose around peoples necks. Yet they hide behind the protective curtain that forbids others from speaking about them. Yes, they are stupid, yes they are dangerous and I see no problem calling them out on this. One of my greatest wishes is to rid Klal Israel of people that are destroying our religion from the inside.
Anon Mom-Again, if you wish to avoid what you look at as loshon hora, I'd suggest staying off blogs if you feel that blogs do indeed, promote loshon hora. As it happens, I've learned Sefer Chafetz Chaim several times myself, but that's an aside. What you seem to be mistaken about is the intent of posting this kind of stuff-it's not to "bash" but to show how far the charedi establishment has fallen-perhaps you haven't seen the effects this kind of stuff is happening, and maybe you have, but I assure you that I have. These kind of gatherings to discuss things like text messaging while other issues like, I don't know, sexual molestation, go un discussed, is a symptom of that has occurred-the charedi establishment has simply lost its way, and is so unnerved by the modern world that is taking counterproductive, and yes, downright stupid steps to combat that modern world.
ReplyDeleteI, for one, am thankful that blogs have indeed shown me that not everyone has followed these party lines.
I hate to post and run because I have to much to reply to here but I'm going to have to do that because I have kids to bed.
ReplyDeleteWait /timeout/ are you in Eretz Yisroel?!
G - Clearly, unless he puts his kids down at 1pm...!
ReplyDeleteA. "He"?
ReplyDeleteB. You never heard of a nap?
C. I'm still not typing to you bec of that soccer/golf thing you pulled the other day.
A - Yeah, I think I know who it is.
ReplyDeleteB - Feh. Naps are only for Israelis.
C - Hey, I liked my kal v'chomer.
and now you have doth blasphemed The Nap
ReplyDeleteREPENT!!!REPENT!!!
LOL. Figured that was coming...
ReplyDeleteNaps are overrated. Sleep in! It's much more conducive to a good day. Plus, how can you nap when:
Sunday: Football.
Monday - Thursday: Markets are open/job/watching kids, followed by NFL (M, Th - only eating allowed), NBA (while you do other things), or MLB (while you do other things).
Friday: Market/Work/Kids/Shabbos Prep.
Shabbos, of course, allows for naps, but that's completely different.
Even if the chareidim are 100% wrong and you're 100% right, since when does that make it okay to speak about them?
ReplyDeleteThat's a dangerous mentality. Think about it.
Hey, Jewboy, I never brought up Loshon Harah. You're confusing me with the other anonymous. I just mean that I read here from time to time these venting sessions about the Chareidim and it seems sadly mocking. I just think it's sad. Hence I don't mock. And, I think we both agree that it's cool to vent so I'm venting about the mocking of what I think is beyond heartbreaking for my people. Funny, that my venting caused you to threaten me off the blog. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteHere's why I don't think it's funny. (NOT BECAUSE OF LOSHON HARA). a. the insanity of the right is seeping into the middle and trickling into the left. Even Y.U. isn't safe.
ReplyDeleteb. i can't even move out of NY and live in peace because the Chareidim are taking over the day schools out of town and running down whatever normal day schools there actually are.
c. my kids' Rebbes don't even have email at home (MO day school)
I'm freaking furious. Hence, I don't mock. But, I'm sorry. I'll be furious in silence or go to an angry blog. There are plenty of those nasty ones out there.
Anon Mom - FWIW, I e-mailed Jewboy after his last comment noting that he was mixing up the anons, and he apologized - he thought it was all the same anon (you).
ReplyDeleteKosher Cell PHone:
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ezzie. You guys are largely people I like (in a blogosphere sort of way). My friend (out of town, mind you) called me a couple of months ago distraught over her son's Yeshiva insisting that all the family's purchase these kosher cell phones. She is a reasonable person and she and her husband make a middle class living. She is annoyed that she has to pay for it, but of course, she feels powerless. How can we help these people take back control? If this is too serious, I understand. But I wish I knew how to end this insanity.
oy. I wrote "family's." i really am losing it.
ReplyDeleteAnon Mom-Sorry about the confusion. All these anons do get me unsure. I never meant to threaten you off blogs. However, my usual response to people who don't like some thing on a blog is, it's your choice to be on the blog or not. That's what I was trying to convey to you.
ReplyDeleteIt seems you and I agree on a lot of these matters. Let us not be foes then.