On one hand the move is understandable, with rockets landing in Ashdod they wanted to move to a safer place. However, on the other hand, this raises some serious questions. The Charedi world justifies the draft exemption for yeshiva students based on the following:These criticisms seem to be below the belt and unfair, if not stupid. Whatever one's opinions are on serving in the IDF vs. learning Torah, this seems to be a misrepresentation of the Charedi position and an illogical conclusion regardless of the Charedi position. As it was presented to me, part of the Charedi position on serving stems from the ability of the army to function without them. There is no need (and to a large extent, desire) on the part of the IDF to enlist thousands of Charedi yeshiva bochurim into the army. That said, they recognize that every person should be doing their part in the servicing of the country, and feel that the best way for them to do so is to learn, which is an integral part of keeping the country safe.
1. Torah learning protects everyone
2. The boys are engaged in מלחמתה של תורה
3. Talmidie Chachamim don't need protection
Based on these it would seem that the Yeshivas should stay where they are. If the boys who are learning are engaged in war just like the soldiers why should they abandon their posts? In addition if Torah learning protects, let them stay where they are and be protected by their Torah. Their move undermines the claim for draft exemptions and looks very bad. The soldiers are entering Gaza to fight while the yeshiva bachurim are fleeing to safer havens.
Regardless of whether this is true or not, or whether one agrees with the line of reasoning or not (or even if one agrees that that is the line of reasoning!), the suggestion that moving out of the range of rockets somehow undermines the Charedi position is mind-boggling [and stinks of Charedi-bashing]. Certainly, learning Torah is not magic. Nobody [normal] would suggest moving the yeshiva bochurim to sit on top of tanks to protect them. Simply having a number of bochurim in a yeshiva in Ashdod or Ashkelon or wherever will not create an invisible bubble shield around the city to keep rockets out - or even around the yeshiva building. It is not unreasonable to suggest that many of the same people criticizing them now would criticize them for relying on such ideas and putting themselves into danger if they remained.
As is clear from this post on VINNews (also via Josh), which details what different yeshivos are doing, the primary question each yeshiva is debating is whether the danger from the rockets warrants uprooting themselves to move North for the time being. Yes, Torah "protects" - but it doesn't justify or allow putting one's self (or leaving one's self) in a makom sakanah (situation of danger). Moreover, one could just as easily argue that for them to carry out their 'duties', they are best able to do so in areas where they don't have to be concerned about safety, where there are no distractions from a rocket landing nearby, where they aren't rushing every couple of hours into bomb shelters. The idea that Charedim taking the same types of precautions as any other Israeli citizen in a time of war is somehow hypocritical to their position seems to be rather ridiculous.
>and stinks of Charedi-bashing
ReplyDeletenah, it isen't.
That post was directed at those charedim that love to flaunt that it is their learning that protects Israel. It is comments like these that always drives everyone up the wall. Hence, JW's post is perfectly fitting.
FWIW, not all rebbeim and bochurim are leaving Ashdod. For example, Rabbi Lazer Brody is staying put and the Melitzer Rebbe moved to Ashdod to offer support and encouragement to the citizens there. See, here.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, there is no reason they can't stay and learn, and run to a bomb shelter when the siren goes off, just like the thousands of others.
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact, my nephew (Lubavitcher)davka stayed with his whole yeshiva in Migdal HaEmek during the Second Lebanon War to learn, specifically because his Rosh Yeshiva said that their job was to learn in order to protect the other residents. (They stayed near their shelter and ran into it when needed).
HH - Come on. You can't always blame someone else's comments for your own.
ReplyDeleteFern - I know, I saw it mentioned in Josh's post. I'm not saying all are; I'm just not sure why there is criticism of those who are.
WBM - Agreed, and many are staying. I'm just not sure why those who make the decision to leave are criticized for somehow not believing that the Torah will protect them.
Simply having a number of bochurim in a yeshiva in Ashdod or Ashkelon or wherever will not create an invisible bubble shield around the city to keep rockets out - or even around the yeshiva building.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure they don't believe that.
It is not unreasonable to suggest that many of the same people criticizing them now would criticize them for relying on such ideas and putting themselves into danger if they remained.
True dat, my first comment notwithstanding.
OR, they could take a page from my ba'al habayit's handbook and stay put in the Beit Midrash to bolster the spirits and morale of the larger population. (I have the zchut of renting R' Dovid Fendel's house; he's the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Hesder Sderot.)
ReplyDeleteI have more faith that HIS learning protects the citizens of Sderot than someone who quits and runs.
Ezzie
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you on this one. You are not adequately considering the symbolism of fleeing in the face of rocket attacks. Where is their bitachon? They should have stayed.
Well, everything else aside, most of US here in the US are not in their position and as a result I believe NOT in a position to be judgemental.
ReplyDeleteThings are pretty quiet and peaceful where I am sitting and reading this blog...
I love how religious people say all sorts of nonsense like "learning Torah protects us" but when push comes to shove, it turns out that they don't believe it... not literally anyway. I'm sure they have some spin about it "protecting" souls or something.
ReplyDeleteI know someone who was killed by a car literally on her way to a mitzvah. All that stuff about protection is nonsense to make people feel safe.
Don't pretend people don't believe it, either.
Baruch - Thanks.
ReplyDeleteTamar - I'm not saying that there isn't a good reason to stay anyway. I'm just saying that leaving is not hypocritical. From an administrative point of view, if I were in charge of a yeshiva that had a few rockets land right nearby, I wouldn't want to tell a teenager's mother that the reason something happened to her son is because we decided to make a statement.
MoChassid - People can argue about what they should have done; I'm saying that those who decide to move are not being hypocritical. Bitachon is not magic, either - we all take reasonable precautions, and it seems from the VIN piece that the precautions some yeshivos are taking are pretty reasonable.
O&SW - Agreed!
JA - Oh, shut up. You're exactly like what I described in the post - no matter what, you'd find something to complain about.
For those of us not even in Israel at the moment, I don't really think this is something we can judge. It's not like we're in the thick of things risking our necks, either. Where is our bitachon? Why don't we all just pick up and make Aliyah to sit by our brethren in danger?
ReplyDeleteI'm being unrealistic on purpose. I feel kind of uncomfortable judging someone who wants to find somewhere safer to sit and learn when I'm not even hanging around the dangerous areas, either. I'm curious why other people don't feel the same.
JA - Oh, shut up. You're exactly like what I described in the post - no matter what, you'd find something to complain about.
ReplyDeleteWhat, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? My comment was directly on point.
You wrote:
the suggestion that moving out of the range of rockets somehow undermines the Charedi position is mind-boggling [and stinks of Charedi-bashing].
My point is just that even if *you* say "Torah isn't magic," most Orthodox Jews say otherwise. People every day give each other "shaliach mitzvah" money to physically "protect" them from harm. The chareidim really have used the idea that their learning "protects" Israel as an argument to get out of army service.
And then whenever these superstitious religious ideas get put to the test, people all of the sudden say, "Oh you shouldn't take that literally" and "nobody really believes that."
Well if nobody takes it literally and nobody really believes that, how can the Chareidim use that as an excuse? And what's with the shaliach mitzvah money?
If you don't want people to disagree with you in the comments, you shouldn't have comments. You can't just tell people who point out that the emperor has no clothes to "shut up."
Erachet - Great comment.
ReplyDeleteJA - Slept quite well, actually, thanks.
As for the rest, you miss the point. People believe that one who performs mitzvos will to some extent be better protected - not through "magic", but by virtue of the fact that one who does the right thing is rewarded while one who does not is not. It doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, and it doesn't mean that good things can't happen to someone who doesn't do those things. The purpose of all of these things is to keep one focused on doing mitzvos and acting properly (or even beyond). That you're unable to see past the extremes (magic vs. not believing) is sad.
It doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, and it doesn't mean that good things can't happen to someone who doesn't do those things.
ReplyDeleteNo, of course not, that would be testable. Of course your current argument is testable as well. Jsut to be clear, are you saying that if we did some kind of study, we would find that people who do mitzvos have less harm befall them than non-mitzvos-doers? Or would you then redefine people's beliefs some other way?
No, of course not, that would be testable.
ReplyDeleteLOL. Ah, yes. If it's not testable, it must not be real!
But I think you can test it: Watch people who look out for others, do favors for others, etc. Compare it to people who don't - easy choice, terrorists. Who is more likely to die young? Who is more likely to have people perform favors for them? Etc.
Lemme know when you've completed your study. :)
LOL. Ah, yes. If it's not testable, it must not be real!
ReplyDeleteWell, you have to take it in the context of centuries and centuries of testable claims being proven false. Now religions have mostly retreated to untestable claims just because they have nothing else left.
What are you even talking about?
ReplyDeleteWhat are you even talking about?
ReplyDeleteLet me break it down.
1) Chareidim, among other Orthodox Jews, claim that learning Torah offers physical protection.
2) It turns out that when that claim is tested by reality, they don't really believe it.
That was what YOUR POST was about. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous those claims are in the first place, and I'm disagreeing with your claim that people don't really mean those claims literally. They do. Fervently.
Even HH gets it. Sheesh.
1) Not the way you mean it.
ReplyDelete2) N/A (see #1)
That was what YOUR POST was about. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous those claims are in the first place, and I'm disagreeing with your claim that people don't really mean those claims literally. They do. Fervently.
Silliness. They don't, because if they did, they'd have no problem shifting every single person who is learning to the front lines.
Even HH gets it. Sheesh.
HH also likes to bash Charedim. I don't think even he would say that learning is some magical bubble shield around a person. Certainly, any Charedim I know do not think they have magic bubble shields around them. But feel free to go to Meah Shearim, Sanhedriya, Kiryat Sefer, etc. and ask them exactly what they mean when they say that mitzvos protect them.
Silliness. They don't, because if they did, they'd have no problem shifting every single person who is learning to the front lines.
ReplyDeleteAh, that's what I'm getting at. They "believe" it but they don't really believe it. Kinda like you and TMS, I'd bet. ;-)
Huh? They believe it offers protection, not a magic bubble. They also believe that there are laws about placing one's self in a dangerous situation - or do you only utilize those parts of the Torah you wish to make fun of?
ReplyDeleteI just want to share our experience, even though it's not exactly the same. During the Lebanon war 2.5 years ago, our entire community fled and went down south. We were in a difficult situation because we had a very ill child and travelling with him would have been too difficult. OTOH, if we would have stayed home, we wouldn't even be able to take him to the miklat because he was dependent on a respirator and other machines to keep him alive. We asked a Rav what to do and he said that the zchus of our chessed that we do with him will protect us and we should stay home. We did and though it wasn't the best time of our lives, BH we stuck it out until the end.
ReplyDeleteWe asked a Rav what to do and he said that the zchus of our chessed that we do with him will protect us and we should stay home.
ReplyDeleteSee what I'm saying? I'm glad it worked out, but that's just crazy.
See what I'm saying? I'm glad it worked out, but that's just crazy.
ReplyDeleteVery different. Two difficult options; the idea is that the merit of the kindness they are doing will hopefully protect them in the one over the other. It's certainly not a "guarantee", and it's a reassurance in taking that choice over the other one.
I don't see how that is equitable to the idea that able-bodied people be forced to remain in a dangerous place due to some misguided idea that there's a magical bubble around them. If anything, the fact that the only thing keeping them from moving out of harm's way was the difficulty in actually doing so shows that their Rav would otherwise have told them to go, the opposite of what you claim.
>Ah, that's what I'm getting at. They "believe" it but they don't really believe it. Kinda like you and TMS, I'd bet. ;-)
ReplyDeleteoooooh, you're not going to let him get away with that one are you Ezzie? Just remind everyone about JA's run in with the Malaysian transexual. That ought to keep his yap closed :P
Again, I'd just like to point out that beyond the armchair Zionists (as many of you are 'fessing up to being) and those who ostensibly are in the south to infuse it with kedusha through their year-long (minus the ubiquitous "bein hazmanim" periods) Torah learning and then up and quit when rockets fall (and here I am most definitely not talking about the families who are trickling into the merkaz and other areas seeking some peace and quiet, but rather bochurim who ostensibly claim that their learning IS their service to the state in lieu of any army service)...there are the inspiring and true heroes who we should identify as our true source of Jewish pride. Such as R' Fendel and HIS bachurim. Or Amy, a Beit Shemesh 18 yr old who is a bat Sherut in a Sderot elementary school and wouldn't dream of leaving her post. Or the teams of chabadnikim who are right there on the front lines with the chayalim boosting their morale.
ReplyDeleteSpend your time extolling these people, dreaming that perhaps one day you might be among their exalted ranks, instead of defending a group of 18-25 year old boys who turned down the opportunity to be an active part of the klal.
Tamar - As I said in the post, this discussion is not about serving vs. learning in specific, but about the actions of those who genuinely feel that what learning they do is that important. Within that framework, I don't think getting out of what can be perceived is harm's way is hypocritical, even if one could argue well that they should stay anyway.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure R' Fendel, for example, would understand their position on the subject even if he does still disagree with it.
Sorry, Ezzie, but I also have to disagree with you on this one. IMHO, it IS hypocritical of them, because they DO make a big deal about how they're "protecting the klal" with their learning.(And on a related note, see the recent guest-post on my blog from a mother of a boy who's learning in Sderot.)
ReplyDeleteEzzie said:
ReplyDelete"I'm sure R' Fendel, for example, would understand their position on the subject even if he does still disagree with it."
Well, yes, of course, considering the caliber of people we're talking about here -- but remember just how much they are in a position to make such a judgment. I just got off the phone with the Fendels. R' Fendel will not leave the yeshiva. He just spoke to hundreds of chayalim as they were about to cross over into Gaza. Clearly we are discussing an individual far removed from an ideology that demands its adherents stay away from "distractions" instead of confronting reality head-on. He believes, as you correctly intuited, that he cannot lecture to a different stream of yahadut to stay put if their gedolim tell them to uproot. What the Fendels' DO demand, though, is that if a yeshiva considers its avodah to the Jewish people to be talmud Torah, then learning should be done b'zchut the chayalim "round the clock." I can't tell you how many chareidi "yeshiva bochrim" or "avreichim" I saw shmatzeering around during "Bein Hazmanim" over the Second Lebanon War, summer '06. Let's hope it's not just the fact that there's no bein hazmanim now that is keeping the yungerleit in the beis midrash.
1. Torah study has its own inherent value.
ReplyDelete2. Torah study in Israel can, in principle, reach a higher level than in Chutz l'Aretz.
3. For a given student in Israel, relocating within Israel might improve his level of concentration on Torah study, and increase his hours "on duty" studying. Likewise for a yeshiva. (but see 4. below)
4. If a yeshiva's continued presence in a town can protect the other residents of the town to some significant degree, that also has to be a consideration in the yeshiva's decision to stay or move.
5. It's possible that one's Torah study will not rise to the level that will eliminate all danger to oneself or others. Even so, it has considerable value. Our existence as a people depends on Torah study. The fact that we now do exist flows largely from our Torah study.
One of my (Charedi) cousins in Israel wrote the following to me, asking me to post:
ReplyDeleteIt is up to you, but I really feel that people living in the
US now who don't live here should stop criticizing
This is what I want to say:
It is very nice how all you guys in America have soooooo much
to say about what is going on here and you don't even live
here, nor know why people do what they do here. Just to let
you know that some Yeshivas stayed and some left. The ones who
left went as a group to another city and did NOT @flee for
their lives@ The Rabbonim of each Yeshiva asked their Gedolim
before moving, so what kind of a question is this?
No one here criticizes whoever leaves or whoever stays. People
understand here why a person, family, Yeshiva may decide each
way. All you bloggers, have you ever heard a siren go off and
had to run to a bomb shelter that you already have an opinion
as to how one should behave?
By the way, What about all of American Jews who call
themselves Zionist and then they stay in America? Is that
hypocritical? Each one has their own reason, which may be
correct or not. Let's leave it to the Ribbono Shel Olam to
decide, OK?
Instead of Chareidi-bashing, why not say some Tehillim or
learn Torah or do something else in the Zechut of the Jews who
actually live here, especially where thhere is fightig.
Don't we all believe that Kol Yisrale Araeivim????