{UPDATE: I almost forgot this excellent post by R' Horowitz on the same subject.}
- (excerpt from Harry) When Rav Steinman was asked about ‘men who had left the yeshivas and cannot find themselves either here or there…would it be possible to set up a yeshiva for them where they would also learn a trade… his repsonse was,
‘You are saying that since he is already not good, then we should send him to learn a trade? That is merely adding poison to poison. A trade is poison.’
- (excerpt from Moshe) [bold mine]
AL: so to insinuate that somehow we are 'sub-par' and not as good as those in Yeshiva to the point that you advise girls that should they really want a Torah home that they should only seek out a certain kind of boy- is hurtful and harmful to those of us that are precisely looking for that kind of girl.
Rabbi B: I see. However, the truth is precisely that: you ARE sub-par!! However, don't worry, most girls don't understand a word about what I am speaking. So many many of them are exactly like you: they have no idea what real Torah is all about and so are very happy to marry a working boy so long as he opens a sefer from time to time.
Rabbi B: I don't see what the problem is. Your desire to have a comfortable life of gashmiyus has caused you to convince yourselves that learning one hour a day is acceptable. However, it most certainly isn't.
Rabbi B: Of course He does.
Again, be sure to read the full e-mail conversation (and comment there if it's specific to the e-mail).
commented on the original post... Absolutely sickening situation.
ReplyDeleteI assume reality will have to catch up at some point...
I am not sure why you feel the need to mask this Rav's identity (and the yeshiva[s] he teaches at for that matter) seeing as how this is from a mass email list, not private correspondence, which he also posts on his website.
ReplyDeleteTrilcat - Mind-boggling.
ReplyDeleteStrongbad - I'm just copying from the original post. Ask Moshe.
Wow. And anyway, what gives this Rabbi the right to assume he knows how Hashem sees things, just because he learns all day? That's quite presumptuous.
ReplyDeleteI have not been this truly offended in a very long while. I mean honestly who does this person think he is. Sub-par!?...Because I do not devote all of my time to Torah learning? Let me tell you something right now, there are many reasons that I qualify as being sub-par, we could be here all day if a list was to be provided. Not learning, HA!!, that does not even make the top ten. If I am going to branded at least it should be for things that are real.
ReplyDeleteIn the times of the Shoftim, what percentage of Jewish men was sub-par in this sense? Obviously, many were fighting against Canaanaites or Philistines, farming, raising livestock, making things, buying and selling, etc., for a significant part of their day.
ReplyDeleteSee:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/15/to-serve-with-honor/
This snippet of the email conversation reminds me of when a high school teacher of mine used to say, "Not to compare myself to G-d, BUT...."
ReplyDeleteI'm absolutely nauseated after having read the complete post. However, having encountered the attitude before, I'm also not at all surprised. This is a large part of the attitude that feeds into the feeling of entitlement that has become prevalent among bnei yeshivah (or those who consider themselves such) that they deserve rich in-laws who will fully support them, cover all their expenses/luxuries for the next x-many years, because THEY are supporting the whole world through their Torah learning and therefore they should have all they ever wanted handed to them on a silver platter. This "Rabbi B"'s attitude towards guys who are working (whether or not they even want to!) says it all...and I'm disgusted.
How disgusting. I also am at a losst for (printable) words on the article, but I have one addition to a previous comment:
ReplyDeleteI assume reality will have to catch up at some point...
I used to hope so too. But it will never happen as long as there are gullible people who can be guilted into subsidizing a lifestyle of able-bodied adults not working under the guise of "tzedaka".
elie: I can tell you that the Tzedaka that my husband and I give does not go to kollel families. We won't give for "hachanas kalla" in the sense of "buying a house for the new couple." We don't own a house, why should we give tzedaka for someone else to?
ReplyDeleteIt seems like that's becoming more and more common among the working folks. I'd rather give to divorced mothers or people who are underemployed, unable to find employment, old & under-pensioned, etc. Though, on the subject of hachnasat kalla, I do plan to give a few months' maaser to the gemach where I got my wedding gown.
Good for you! But far too many, I fear, still buy into to the notion of adults living off others (or the government).
ReplyDeleteeh, Chareidim, what can you expect.
ReplyDeleteoh please, he was talking to a single bochur who was trying to defend learning for one hour a day vs. getting rich. He was not saying every married man needs to be in kollel. If the same question had come up about a married man, then I think the answer would have been different. He might have said his learning would be different but he has to do it for other obligations. After all, this rebbe is working isn't he?????
ReplyDeleteUm... he called him Sub par, or was that just a joke.
ReplyDeleteThe rabbi clearly says the man will be a good husband, G-d loves his hour of learning and he is not tainted.
ReplyDeleteHowever, when the boy says that he doesn't like being called subpar. the rabbi tells him that he is "sub-par" because he is not pushing himself the way he could. I think that is sub-par by most definitions. not living up to one's potential.
The rabbi makes two main points
a. the goals of one learning full time are differnt than one working and learning one hour. (his hint may have something to do with the fact that they chose different lifestyles.)
b. One hour is not enough learning for a boy in this age bracket and still single.
AL took offense to this comment -
If you can't take mussar don't open yourself up to it by writing to a chareidi rabbi and get a thicker skin.
Commenters are making many assumptions, but there are things we don't know.
ReplyDeleteFor example, did the rabbi in this case actually know that this specific Jew was looking at a tradeoff between riches and Torah study, and was capable of doing more and deeper Torah study? If so, the personal advice could have been generally on the mark. However, if the rabbi was reacting instead to a false stereotype, the advice could have been useless or harmful. This Jew might have needed to work just to put bread on the table. This Jew might have had poor Gemara comprehension and needed tutoring to improve that if possible, or needed to study other material in another setting. And so on.
This is all a good argument against putting out one-size-fits-all advice on this topic via the Web or other public channels.
The rabbi could have also been wrong in general, not knowing what actually prompts most people to work for a living. We see many examples in Tanach and the Gemara of even top-level scholars having jobs outside Jewish education. Who let the future David HaMelech out to tend the sheep?
as one who knows the rabbi in question, I think he is very aware of what prompts people to work for a living and encourages people to do so. The young man called the Rabbi "rebbe" implying they had a previous relationship
ReplyDeleteThe hysteria over these comments is that he dared to tell a young man that he could do better and that young man rather than taking the advice to heart decided to get others to side with him via blogs rather than doing introspection
Erachet - I agree.
ReplyDeleteG - :P as usual. There's so much that comes as a prerequisite to learning.
Anon - Well put. I would stretch that from then until... now.
Ram - Excellent, thank you.
Scraps - I'm absolutely nauseated after having read the complete post. However, having encountered the attitude before, I'm also not at all surprised.
That was my response as well. Part of what bothers me most is how he said it more than what he said.
Elie - But it will never happen as long as there are gullible people who can be guilted into subsidizing a lifestyle of able-bodied adults not working under the guise of "tzedaka".
I think we actually are closer to a collapse than in the past, simply because more and more people are getting fed up and/or finding alternatives for their tzedaka where this is not done. We'll see, though.
Anon - See my previous post regarding my own cousins (regarding your second point).
It seems rather clear from his comments that he is directing this to all those who work, single or not, and that he feels that all should be learning full-time.
Anon - the rabbi tells him that he is "sub-par" because he is not pushing himself the way he could.
No, that's clearly NOT what he said. Read the whole conversation. He is clearly calling him sub-par for planning a life where he will work vs. learn.
a) That's ridiculous. Every person must gauge for themselves what makes the most sense for them. Those are not different goals, but different ways of serving Hashem.
b) I didn't really see that point made, nor do I agree with it, if the person is busy with other aspects of life.
If you can't take mussar don't open yourself up to it by writing to a chareidi rabbi and get a thicker skin.
That's utterly stupid. As one of my Rebbeim said, "A Rebbe must be a ba'al mussar." This has nothing to do with "thick skin". After this, should the talmid find another Rebbe? Perhaps. But that's because of the Rebbe, not the talmid. Moreover, you seem to imply that a Charedi rabbi is more entitled to bash or put down ["don't open yourself up to it by writing to a chareidi rabbi"], which is not only wrong and foolish, but also degrading to Charedim.
Ram - The rabbi could have also been wrong in general, not knowing what actually prompts most people to work for a living. We see many examples in Tanach and the Gemara of even top-level scholars having jobs outside Jewish education. Who let the future David HaMelech out to tend the sheep?
I think this is the more important point. Lots to say on this, but too much for a comment.
Anon - as one who knows the rabbi in question, I think he is very aware of what prompts people to work for a living and encourages people to do so.
I also know the Rebbe in question. I'm not sure 'aware' is the best word - he may be aware but he does not necessarily relate well to it. Moreover, I don't recall him encouraging people to work.
The hysteria over these comments is that he dared to tell a young man that he could do better and that young man rather than taking the advice to heart decided to get others to side with him via blogs rather than doing introspection
That's a completely skewed version of what the talmid asked, what he responded, and what happened. You have no clue what you're saying.
humn, I wonder if sofers and shochtim are also sub-par.
ReplyDeleteI think you have to letRabbi B.name to be known.He is misleading many easily influenced young adults through his blog and e-mails.
ReplyDeleteI also commented on Moshe's original post, so I'll just add that does this rabbi think he's G-d? Cause he sure acts like he knows exactly what He wants.
ReplyDeleteThe scary thing is that I think I may know who the Rav B. is and can see him saying all that. The thing is he doesn't realize that the working men aren't looking for mega bucks (though some are). They're looking to make ends meet, to pay rent, to buy food and clothing (not even fancy/expensive), to pay tuition. Tuition in Israel is a joke, so people in Israel have a hard time understanding....He talks about rabbanim who are learning full time, but what about the rabbanim of old who worked and learned(shoemakers, etc). The answer may have fit to the writer, though I don't know him so I don't know, but such an answer cannot be for the general yeshivish guy who's working.
ReplyDelete