I'm still amazed that this country hasn't started compromise on the issue of abortion in general, by banning at a minimum late-term abortions except for select cases (threat to mother, etc.).Leaders of the anti-abortion movement gathered in front of the Supreme Court Monday morning to denounce the murder of abortion doctor George Tiller, who was gunned down Sunday while attending church in Wichita, Kan.
"It is immoral and it is unchristian," Rev. Rob Schenck of the National Clergy Council said of Tiller's murder. He said the reaction to it "becomes a greater setback to the pro-life movement than anything the so-called pro-choice movement could do."
Operation Rescue, a group that closely tracked Tiller's work and legal troubles, condemned the killing as vigilantism and "a cowardly act."
Monday, June 01, 2009
Truly Pro-Life
While unsurprising, it's important to note how the pro-life movement reacted to the murder of an abortion doctor this weekend:
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I find the whole enterprise dishonest. (Some) pro-life groups go on and on about how abortion is murder and Dr. Tiller was a "baby-killer."
ReplyDeleteSo even if you don't have a halakhic concept of rodef, is it that hard to imagine someone might think that a man who kills hundreds of babies is worth assassinating?
If you* believe abortion is murder, then I don't see what's wrong with this assassination. If you DON'T believe that but profess to believe it to score rhetorical points -- as do I suspect many, many anti-abortion activists do -- you have some share of the blame in this murder.
*By "you," I don't mean "you," Ezzie. Obviously Orthodox Jews don't think abortion is murder. Some of you are just silly enough to think that the Christian right is "close enough" so it's worth allying yourselves with them.
?
ReplyDeleteHow you can compare feeling a guy is a murderer to justifying taking it into one's own hands!?
There was a murder today at a military recruitment post. There are (some) on the left who feel that what the military does is murder, etc. Does that mean that this attack is justified in those circles?
I hope you don't believe that.
Rodef is a new concept to you?
ReplyDelete?
ReplyDeleteDo you know how Rodef works?
Wow. The vigilantes who murdered that doctor were not being "pursued" by him. JA, Not sure where the "rodef" argument is going.
ReplyDeleteThe doctor, according to many prolifers, was a professional murderer of babies. Are you just quibbling with the timing of the assassination? Would it have been okay if the doctor was imminently going to perform a late-term abortion? (Again, we're going under the "abortion is murder" standard, not the "it's not murder if the baby isn't 30 days old" standard of the Talmud.)
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying it was literally a case of rodef, but that the concept of killing to prevent killing isn't exactly a new one.
JA - Even in the only case which you could perhaps claim rodef applies (about to perform a late-term abortion, so about to "kill"), you'd really have to factor in that 30-day point, so it just doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, perhaps, is that you can only do so if you have no other choice. Here, they were consistently pursuing legal means.
One might argue that (while still wrong) the person who shot his arms in 1993 (?) was trying to do just that - stop him without killing him.
Ezzie:
ReplyDeleteI'm not complaining about the "abortion is immoral" crowd. I'm complaining about the "abortion is murder" crowd. THEIR rhetoric has a direct, causal relationship to acts of terrorism like this. (And the thousands of terrified young women already having the worst day of their lives faced with "protesters" screaming at them and copying down their license plate numbers and calling them murderers and waving pictures of fetuses in their faces every single day.)
(And the thousands of terrified young women already having the worst day of their lives faced with "protesters" screaming at them and copying down their license plate numbers and calling them murderers and waving pictures of fetuses in their faces every single day.)Those who are are troubled. Those who aren't aren't.
ReplyDeleteTHEIR rhetoric has a direct, causal relationship to acts of terrorism like this.BS. If I said that the liberal left is guilty of today's murder on the military recruitment center, you'd go nuts.
If I said that the liberal left is guilty of today's murder on the military recruitment center, you'd go nuts.But the liberal left largely doesn't call members of the military murderers. It's nothing compared to the "abortion is murder" crowd. Just because you can think of an equivalence doesn't make it a good one. ;-)
ReplyDeleteBut the liberal left largely doesn't call members of the military murderers.Are you kidding?!!?
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I think I got lost here. Please explain to me how the doctor is a rodef? I just can't see comparing a rodef in halakha to this doctor. I also think it's a slippery slope to start making tenuous ideological connections between lunatics and normal people who have strong (or even outrageous) opinions.
ReplyDeletePlenty of people think abortion is murder, and plenty of people think the military is akin to murder, but they don't take the law into their own hands. Many people use the court system or just blast their opinions on the radio. I would not put them in the same category as the person who killed the doctor.
And I'm fairly certain taking matters into one's own hands is still illegal. So, even if you believe abortion is murder, we have the laws of the United States that say assassinating this doctor is illegal. As is the murder at the military recruitment center. What is this, 15th century Spain?
This is the USA where we have a court system. Flawed, for sure, but it's what we have to work with.
JA
ReplyDeleteYes, many on the right think abortion is murder. I think late term abortion is almost equivalent to murder, but Ezzie has a point. Most people DON'T go on murdering doctors no matter what they hold. It's because while they hold that abortion is murder, they ALSO hold by rule of law. Your case would be much stronger had their been sprees of people taking the law into their own hands. Interestingly enough, the vast majority of people that consider abortion murder, DON'T commit murder.
This is no different than saying moderate religious people are guilty for what religion causes extremists to committ.
Thank you Sam Harris