In the modern orthodox world, a MAN or WOMAN is presented or viewed as an adult, with unique experiences, abilities and personalities. While all would acknowledge that losing a parent at a young age shapes a person–ultimately people are looking a the person who has been shaped. By analogy, often a person’s grandparents will have an influence on their life–but in the MO world no one really cares what shtetl in Lita or Ohio your grandparents came from; it is who YOU are now and what you, coupled with your personality and grace (or lack thereof).
In the charedi world BOYS and GIRLS are essentially variable fungible marriage units for marriage transactions. Yeshiva X, Bais Yakov Y; Flatbush Est 2?rd street; oldest youngest, Litvish, Galitzianer etc. Tall or short, oh and of some minor importance, rich or not rich. As people are setting up CHILDREN (in their mind) who have never accomplished anything of their own, all that matters is relative conformity to some ideal. Variation from the ideal is then weighed positively or negatively (balancing weight with wealth; measuring yichus against a sibling’s satorial choices). Families play a game where wining is defined by marrying better than you would have expected (by their crooked and warped sense) and losing is marrying down.
[I note incidentally that since in the charedi paradigm "children" can not acheive anything on their own of worth, any educational or communal success (becoming a JD/MD/organizing a tomchei shabbat) or entreprenurial success (demonstrating ability to open a business) demonstrated by a child is actually viewed as a negative as it is a mark of non-conformity. similarly merely being older that the norm is cause for a non-conforming demerit].
So my sister a was head of GO at BY X and best camper at charedi “no pockets allowed on skirts” de jour. She also happens to be beautiful. Nonetheless because she had a widowed mother she was viewed as substandard merchandise. Fortunately, she was able to marry a prospective 2nd generation kollel candidate given my Mother’s willingness to provide an appropriate remedial dowery. As for my late father’s reputation as a baal chesed and baal tzedakah, suffice it to say that those midos/ot were unfortunately canceled out by his gonig to work My other sisters were able to obtain appropriate husbands who had corresponding handicaps, perhaps a lame sibling or attendance at a second rate HS. As they are all happy I suppose the system worked.
In the MO world, people actually cared about MY adult educational acheivements and career and about my own spiritual acheivments in both Israeli yeshivot and YU.
In summary, if all that matters is a resume that needs a healthy dose of conformity — a death in the family will be a black mark. If what matters is the person themselves then a fat schlub will fail on his own merit.
That was where I first got puzzled. "You mean the shadchan was still involved on the seventh date?" I asked. And then I got the answer that reminded me of why I don't actively redt shidduchim anymore. The mom's voice was incredulous. "Of course the shadchan is still involved! You think that kids this young should just be left alone to have to make important decisions like this?! They need someone with experience guiding them. Es past nit that they should be the ones to ask the delicate questions or to put themselves into situations that could get awkward if they don't know what the right answer should be."
On the second one, first: The quote seems troubling on many levels, but most of those don't need commentary. What the line made me think of was the different people we've set up in the past and how they handled dating. By and large, those who took things into their own hands earlier on were far more successful - the ones who got married decided on their own to go out again by the end of their first dates (one yeshivish, one not).
ReplyDeleteThat is not to say that people don't have questions, issues to discuss, etc. - everyone does, and seeking out the advice or input of friends or advisors is certainly not a bad thing and often extremely important. But there's a clear difference between those who ask mature questions about concerns they have and those who simply agonize back and forth or over and over, or try to figure out what to say/not say, or turn everything into an act or game.
The more involved others (whether parents, friends, or whomever) seem to be directly involved in the development of the couple's relationship, the worse it seems to impact that relationship - whether in the short-term or the long-term.
Having said that, the first one obviously makes a lot of broad swipes at the different worlds, but the question is if they are largely true.
ReplyDeleteI think that there's a large differentiation before dates and on dates. Before dates, those "fungible marriage units" weigh far heavier, especially in the UO world. Much of this has to do with how the dates come about: If the parents are involved, then the parents matter in terms of the person - clearly they play a role in their decision-making process. If a couple meets on their own or a friend is introducing them or setting it up, why would the parents matter? It's like living at home or even in a yeshiva/dorm vs. living in an apartment on one's own/with friends - the more independent your life, the more independent you are viewed in regards to marriage. The more you're living under other people's roof/control, the more they matter in context to your own life.
Finally, the line about conformity is extremely troubling; while not a "black mark" necessarily, anything out of given paths seems to raise eyebrows - but that's nearly as true in the MO world, I think, just with different paths (and perhaps slightly more options because of those different paths). Much as going to college earlier on or heading to medical school often raises eyebrows in the UO world, people looking to become Rabbeim in the MO world can get some strange looks. As for health issues, the primary difference I see between the communities lies not in how much they care, but how much it's hidden and discussed behind the scenes vs. out in the open.
When you don't get to know the person what else do you have to go on but arbitrary details?
ReplyDeleteShouldn't they be married by the seventh date?
ReplyDeleteAnon - 9th.
ReplyDeleteJA - What do you mean?
thank you for inspiring me!
ReplyDeleteEven in "shidduch dating," the shadchan is usually out of the picture after the second or third date -- even if they are not yet getting engaged. The only exception I can think of is a case in which the shadchan has a stronger vested interest in promoting the particular shidduch because of a fee to be paid or if the parents negotiated financial terms of settlement on the young couple and want the shadchan involved as a type of broker for that aspect.
ReplyDeleteIf they consider the shadchan to still be necessary because the young people cannot be trusted to make a decision on their own, I suppose they expect the shadchan to remain by their sides even after they marry. Obviously, that is ludicrous but so is pushing people you consider utterly immature into marriage.
Maidel - NP :)
ReplyDeleteAriella - 2-3 often; 4 also a lot, which I think is a bit ridiculous.