Josh M. asked a great question on the last post which touched on "moderate" communities.
There are plenty of people who would be interested in helping to build such a community, but often, their determination of the "least bad" option incorporates a recognition that there are fringe moderate groups in their infancy that despite having a preferable ideology, have other (often number-related) disadvantages that prevent them from winning their full support.
What do you believe would be the first step towards creating a viable moderate community?
Moving there. Until then it's all philosophy and theory. You can't build a community from the outside--you have to be there to actually do the grunt work necessary. And you have to believe that it will grow and prosper. That kind of positive attitude is catchy and others will come. But if you have doubts and don't go, then why should you expect others to be the pioneers for you?
ReplyDeleteI think having a school with that sort of philosophy. Except the teachers would actually have to believe in it and impart it to the students.
ReplyDeletedon't hire charedi or neo charedi rabbonim is a good place to start
ReplyDeleteHow do you define moderate? I think a clearer definition would be a good place to start. The problem I think is that everyone will define moderate differently.
ReplyDeleteMiriam - That's just it. Rather than define it closely and exclude, essentially show that it's the wide middle.
ReplyDeletehonestly frum- with talk like that you will never get such a community off the ground.
ReplyDeletemoderate would be defined as people who dont live everything dogmatically. do things that are normal.
Im in.
as for first steps, would be finding a Rabbi who would be acceptable to many different shades of judaism.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at growing communities, the first thing they do is create a viable girls High-school. this keeps the girls at home, and more likely to stay in the town.
Surely you jest. Modern and Yeshivish sooo far apart? It's the same Torah! "Oh, the farmer and the cow-man can be friends!!"
ReplyDeleteModerate, schmoderate. I would propose a few simple rules, and anyone who cannot live by the rules doesn't belong there.
ReplyDelete1. Firmly believe that Kol Yisrael Arevim Zeh Lazeh. And lives it.
2. Lives in scrupulous honesty.
3. Derech Eretz. Behaves properly.
4. Torah Umadah. Learns Torah in his or her own way. Works regularly to earn a living.
Maybe more later.
Mark
1. Everyone will define "moderate" in line with his own position. Will there be enough overlap to allow a community to form? If there was, wouldn't this community already exist?
ReplyDelete2. Might such a community attract people who lack a really passionate relationship with Judaism? This could become a boring place that the more religiously engaged younger people would shun.
You need to state upfront that you're not going to worry about whether the rest of the Orthodox world considers you frum enough. Once you start making concessions for what the neighbors will think it's all over.
ReplyDeleteKnow before Whom you stand, in other words. ;-)
1. Firmly believe that Kol Yisrael Arevim Zeh Lazeh. And lives it.
ReplyDeleteGive Tochacha when necessary!
2. Lives in scrupulous honesty.
No pay for play contracts with governors!
3. Derech Eretz. Behaves properly.
KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY DAUGHTER!
4. Torah Umadah.
No cable TV!
Learns Torah in his or her own way.
(This I have no snarky response to. It's too way out there.)
Works regularly to earn a living.
Not 100 hours a week to get rich!
You don't build a moderate community by defining it. You build a moderate community by being accepting of people who are different from you and demanding acceptance in return.
ReplyDeleteRejewvenator - EXACTLY.
ReplyDeleteA few commenters have mentioned schools, rabbeim, a rav, etc. If you import rabbeim from outside the community, they may not agree with the hashkafa of the community. On the other hand, if they do live in the community, then you are implicitly recognizing the need for full-time learners. But if your community is so-called "moderate," don't you want workers rather than learners? It seems like a catch-22.
ReplyDeleteI think a better thought-out definition of "moderate" is needed, but if you could find it, maybe we'd be in…
Anon - How are having a Rav or Rabbeim showing a need for full-time learners?
ReplyDeleteAlso, why can't a moderate community have full-time learners? What does one have to do with the other?
Rabbeim and Rabbonim would draw salaries from the schools and shul(s). Other full-time learners is a much trickier venture, because by definition the only way they can be supported is through others. Were there to be a kollel, it would make more sense to have it in the style of one my friend described in Cincinnati*: They learn with members of the community morning and evening, attend grad school, and have regular sedorim as well. Many then get hired full-time after they complete their degree by the companies of the people they're learning with.
* This is how I understood the description, feel free to correct.
Define Moderate.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, I came from a moderate community (I think) and there were charedim there (I think). They got along, mostly (I think).
IMNSHO, having a community that is defined by living by Torah and middos is more important. Middos, middos, middos. Forget dogma.
And maybe people just can't, and it's too hard to have that in a community, and maybe that's why there are breakaway shuls and "shuls I would never set foot in"...
(back to square 1.)