Wolf has
an interesting post that to me has a plausible explanation, but judge for yourself:
On the way back from the mountains, Phoebe told us about her trip up. She went to see her daughter in the same camp that Wilma is in. However, the people she went with made a stop at another camp to see their son at a learning camp somewhere in the Catskills. Apparently, this learning camp doesn't allow women on the camp grounds at all. They set up an area outside the camp (michutz la-machane... literally) where the women could have refreshments... but they could not step onto the actual grounds. This sounded very odd to me, so I asked Phoebe what the mothers do on visiting day. Do they just go up but not see their sons? Do they not go up at all? She responded that no, the boys go out to the women's area to see their mothers.
I don't understand the logic in this at all. If women are barred from the grounds in toto, and the boys could not see them, I could see the logic (I don't agree with it, but logically, given the values of those running the camps, I can understand the course of action). However, if they're allowing the boys to go to the women's area to see thier mothers, then why not allow them on the grounds already? The boys are going to see other people's mothers when they go to the women's area anyway. So what's the point? Why keep the women confined to one small area?
In the comments, after many very plausible but more harsh explanations were given, suggesting that the camp wishes for a variety of reasons to be overly strict and/or make a statement about separation of the sexes but wishing to allow the campers to see their mothers, I suggested the following:
To be fair... it's *possible* that they simply don't want women walking around the bunkhouses where people might be changing, dressed more casually, etc.
I should add as someone else did "and the mess!!" I could see a strong case being made for either side. Which do you think is more plausible? Are camps simply going off the deep end, or do they simply not want the women to be in the bunkhouses for one of the aforementioned reasons?
Honestly, I think it's really over the top not to let mothers onto the grounds on visiting day. Going onto the grounds is not the same thing as going into the bunks. I can understand them not wanting women in the bunks, sure. But usually camp grounds are big enough that you can be on the grounds in a main area without seeing what's going on in the bunks. I dunno. To me it's like saying you can't walk into someone's backyard because he might be in his room changing.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, somehow, just about every other camp manages to get through the day without a mother seeing someone else's kid not dressed properly.
ReplyDeleteThe Wolf
Erachet - True, but perhaps they figure that they have a nice enough area that there's no reason to risk it.
ReplyDeleteWolf - I'm not saying it is particularly necessary, merely reasonable to think this is the intention.
Interesting theory. Maybe they just don't like the whole concept of women on grounds, not just boys seeing women. Maybe they feel camp should have an al-boys atmosphere. Another possiblity: Rebbes? Counselors?
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting cuz two of my brothers go to a very Chassidish camp and we are able to go on grounds.
deep end.
ReplyDeletedude, not being allowed in the bunks is not the same as not being allowed on the grounds. Give me a break.
Camps are going off the deep end.
ReplyDeleteTo not let mothers in camp is so silly. What are the counselors afraid of, anyway? One of their campers might have a good-looking mother?
Sorry to be slightly crass. I just think that is so dumb. Parents are paying a fortune to have their kids go to camp, and to not let them on the grounds is just chutzpah.
Agreed w/ Wolf on the part where no one ever actually sees anyone not dressed properly.
What next, no fathers on girls' camp grounds? No sisters over age 12 on boys' camp grounds? No brothers over age 9 on girls' camp grounds?
I agree with Apple. There's more to visiting day than just seeing your kid. I know from my own mother - parents like to see where their kid is living for eight weeks. And kids like to show their parents around.
ReplyDelete"This is where we eat!"
"This is where we play baseball!"
Etc., etc., etc.
I went to a non-frum (but Jewish camp) and we NEVER had visiting day...
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to Aishet Chayil? Would you really treat a woman who's value is above rubies to sitting outside of the camp? Unless there was air conditioning and couches, I don't think it was fair treatment. Anyone who has a mother knows that they would like to 1) feel involved and 2) see the camp itself!
ReplyDeleteI would never visit a child of mine that didn't allow me onto the grounds. (I'd never send my kid to that kind of camp to begin with, but....). Are they hiding something? Do they not want to bother cleaning up the grounds, like all camps do frantically the day or two before visiting day?
ReplyDeleteTruth is, I think visiting day should be banned completely. I always hated it. But if I'm going to shlep for hours to see my child, I want to see it all.
Before posting something like this, did you ascertain to make sure that it's true?
ReplyDeleteWe heard the same sort of thing about the camp where my son is attending - that girls were not allowed beyond a certain point - and it was absolutely not true.
My daughter didn't feel comfortable going into the bunk, though my wife did, and I waited outside with her.
I love the way you repeat things that cast the Chareidi world in a terrible light without even confirming they are true.
This is likely rechilus.
I suspect that the camp referred to is the same one that my son is attending, but since it isn't named I can't be sure.
M - Interesting...!
ReplyDeleteAML - I'm just giving another option. I don't know.
Apple - It certainly does sound like chutzpah...
Erachet - True, and hehe. "This is where we lie around when we don't want to do activity."
Diana - Personally, I always thought the idea was dumb.
Anon - Agreed.
Baila - Agreed.
SD - It's a firsthand account from Wolf's blog, you can check it.
I love the way you repeat things that cast the Chareidi world in a terrible light without even confirming they are true.
What are you talking about?!
I checked Wolf's blog. He is quoting someone else. He didn't go to the camp. Neither did the person who he talked to:
ReplyDeleteApparently, this learning camp doesn't allow women on the camp grounds at all.
This is not a firsthand account. Note the word "apparently." And I'd add that the women relating the story to Wolf hadn't attended the camp yet, but was planning to. This is repeating a rumor not first hand reporting.
You don't think this is putting the Chareidi world in the worst possible light?
Look at Erachet's, the Apple's and Baila's responses. They assumed the story to be true and passed judgment.
m at least pointed to the implausibility of the charge.
She was with the people who made the stop. Unless they lied to her or she made it up, this is what happened.
ReplyDeleteThat is NOT what the word apparently means there. He followed up with a question to the lady who explained. That is not him projecting.
No, I think this is putting certain segments of the community in an appropriate light.
And again, I'd like to see other examples of me "casting the Charedi world in a terrible light without even confirming they are true."
Like I wrote, I heard a similar rumor about the camp where my son attended. We discovered that it was not true.
ReplyDeleteThough "apparently" threw me for a loop, it's still unclear if Phoebe visited the camp or if she's reporting what she was told.
And yes I suspect that the camp described is the one that my son is attending, so I believe the charge is mistaken.
This woman was talking to the people she was with as they went.
ReplyDeleteThere are many camps; it's certainly plausible that the situation existed in one camp, someone mistakenly attributed it to your son's camp, and that's why you think it's untrue.
Soccer Dad,
ReplyDeleteEeees and I took Phoebe back from the mountains on Sunday afternoon. She took the trip up that morning with a couple who had a son in that camp. They stopped off at that camp that morning. Phoebe was personally at the campgrounds on that morning. She is not the "chareidi-bashing" type, doesn't know that I have a blog, and had no reason to lie about something like this.
The Wolf
Wolf
ReplyDeleteWhat camp was it?
When I asked, she declined to name the camp. Nonetheless, she had no reason to lie about something like this. It wasn't even central to the story she was telling us, it was a side point that I asked for further elaboration on.
ReplyDeleteThe Wolf
I haven't read the comments yet, but I think the reason is, they don't want the teenage girls crawling all over the place. Face it-sisters are always going to the boys camp to visit brothers, and maybe check everyone else out too. I remember this from my camp days.
ReplyDeleteThey most likely don't want that to happen and can't allow the mothers in while leaving all the girls out, so it's easier just to have the boys go greet the mothers individually, even if other boys will be out there. It's not the same as going on the boys grounds.
Just a thought..
"They most likely don't want that to happen and can't allow the mothers in while leaving all the girls out, so it's easier just to have the boys go greet the mothers individually, even if other boys will be out there"
ReplyDeleteI thought of the same point fifteen years ago, when the learning camp I went to had such signs. I don't think the signs would be prevalent in all camps, as mothers want to see their young children's bunk house.
Also in general, I think it's important to understand the reasoning and motives of the stringent-side in these types of issues before dissmising it out of hand.
The problem with this explanation is that if the boys go out to the women's area to see their mothers (and sisters), then the other girls will *still* be "checking them out." How does that solve anything?
ReplyDeleteThe Wolf
Also in general, I think it's important to understand the reasoning and motives of the stringent-side in these types of issues before dissmising it out of hand.
ReplyDeleteBaruch,
I agree with this. That's why I didn't dismiss it out of hand on my blog. I asked people to find a real, logical reason.
The Wolf
Soccer Dad - as I don't know the name of the camp, I wasn't "passing judgment" on the camp itself, rather the action. And even if this situation was only in a theoretical sense and not actually true, I still think it's nuts.
ReplyDeleteWhen you tag a post with the word "stupidity" it looks a lot like you're dismissing it out of hand.
ReplyDeleteApple,
ReplyDeleteI think it's a bad policy if true. I'm just aware of another case where similar strictures were rumored and turned out to be false. So until I know more, I'm skeptical that this is an accurate depiction of the situation.
When you tag a post with the word "stupidity" it looks a lot like you're dismissing it out of hand.
ReplyDeleteThat is a very fair criticism. I have removed the tag from the post.
The Wolf
Ma'anyan. I like the points everyone is mkaig here. Might I throw out the idea that let's say the camp *did* decide not to let females onto camp grounds for regliosu reasons. Don't we think they have a right to do so?
ReplyDeleteSoccer Dad - I was in no way passing judgement on the Chareidi world. I was simply saying what I thought of the idea of not allowing mothers onto camp grounds. I honestly don't care which camp it is, nor do I want to know, and I certainly am not extending any comments about it to the entire Chareidi world.
ReplyDelete"This is where we lie around when we don't want to do activity."
LOL. It's usually more like, "and, uh, THESE are all the activities we go to a lot!" *angelic grin*
"Really? What have you made in arts and crafts?"
"Er...I didn't finish it yet..."
"I see. So, have you been brushing your teeth every day?"
"Uh huh!"
"...Then why is your toothbrush still in the package?"
Oh, campers. :D
SD - okay, I hear that.
ReplyDeleteI check with a friend who works for the Agudah. The Agudah runs no camp that has such a policy. He indicated that if such a camp exists it would Chassidish.
ReplyDeleteI know this is true because years ago when I was a mom of a toddler, I visited my married cousins who were working in a camp like this and I was not permitted to walk the grounds freely. Also, visiting day came and mothers were not allowed in. I was "in." Ha ha ha. Ridiculous. Ban the mothers!!!!! pitchforks, blah, blah, blah.
ReplyDelete