I posted yesterday about a pair of Browns' 50-yard line seats I own with a friend (still available for tonight's game, by the way), and the issue was politely raised whether this was okay to attend during the Nine Days. My mother noted that while my father was an aveil, he asked a shailah about attending a game and was told it was fine; presumably, the Nine Days would be no different (if not less of an issue).
Just for kicks, my father asked someone last night if attending tonight's game is an issue and was told that it is not an issue whatsoever: A person may attend a sporting event during the Nine Days.*
So now the question becomes... where do we get the idea come from that perhaps a person cannot or should not go to a game? Is it simply assumed that anything that smacks of "fun" is not allowed during the Nine Days?
Essentially, I'm curious if this is how most chumras start: regular people making reasonable assumptions about what is and is not allowed, and presuming that it is not - whether because they truly believe so or to be 'safe'.
* Note: May = may. It does not mean 'may, but better not to.'
can you tell us who was asked? Also, I’m surprised at the answer myself. I thought During Sefira you weren't supposed to go to stadiums and isn't the nine days more severe in terms of mourning? Also, what of all the music you will hear?
ReplyDeleteMy father didn't ask if the person can be quoted, so I don't feel comfortable doing so. However, he has semicha, has been a Rav, and has written seforim about different areas of Halacha. (Not sporting events, though. :) )
ReplyDeleteI thought During Sefira you weren't supposed to go to stadiums
Which comes back to the question in the post: Why? Can you remember why you thought so? (I'm posing this to everyone.)
Also, what of all the music you will hear?
I believe R' Moshe calls any incidental music not a problem.
Found looking around briefly:
ReplyDeleteOne is permitted to stay or work in a place where they are playing music over the intercom (office, bus). Furthermore, it is permitted to listen to a commercial that has music in the background (Yalkut Yosef).
Elsewhere:
ReplyDeleteRav Sheinberg Shlita holds that according to the strict letter of the law, only music that brings one to joy e.g. Chasuna, is forbidden during the three weeks
Some opinions hold that only live music is forbidden during the three weeks.
R’ Moshe Feinstein z”l held that listening to music during the three weeks is prohibited, whether it is live or recorded.
If the musical entertainment is incidental it is permitted.
I'm the person who raised the issue to begin with. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing something fun during the Nine Days (it IS supposed to be a somber time), but I in no way was trying to imply that it's assur or that we should take upon ourselves not to go to sporting events. It happens to be that I did go to a baseball game during the Three Weeks. It's just my personal feelings and I probably shouldn't have posted it in a public forum.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, my problem wasn't with the incidental music, but with the enjoyment and good time I would have.
ReplyDeleteAnon - It was absolutely fine, I'm just using it to raise the broader question. (Note the politely raised.)
ReplyDeleteI was not trying to say you said it was assur ("where do we get the idea that perhaps a person cannot or should not go to a game").
It's more like why is even what you and the other anon just wrote true: I wouldn't feel comfortable doing something fun during the Nine Days (it IS supposed to be a somber time)
my problem wasn't with the incidental music, but with the enjoyment and good time I would have.
We're not not allowed to have fun; we're "mi'ma'atin b'simcha" in Av, which is accomplished by the lack of music, meat, wine, smachot, new clothes, etc.
"While the other customs of mourning may not share the same force of law, some practices are still based on rabbinic sources. M. Ta'anit 4:6 states the general principle "Mishenichnas Av me-ma'atin be-simha" - with the month of Av one minimizes joy. Thus from the first of Av, i.e. the beginning of the nine days, those actions which are considered to evoke simha ought to be curtailed.
ReplyDeleteThese are some actions which the Talmud defines as inducing simha:
* Drinking wine (Men) (B. Pesachim 109a)
* Eating meat8 (B. Pesachim 109a)
* New clothing (women) (B. Pesachim 109a)
* Getting married (B. Sukkah 25b)
* Participating in a celebratory meal (B. Sukkah 25b)9
* Constructing "buildings of simha" (Y. Ta'anit 4:6 69b) such as building a house for a newly married son (B. Ta'anit 15a)
Because of the rabbinic designation of these activities as "simha" most Jews avoid the above activities during the nine days where possible. But note that the Mishnaic idiom "me-ma'atin" - to minimize - is more of a discouragement than an outright prohibition. For a parallel, Rav contrasts the roles of simha for Av with its role for the month of Adar and Purim: "Just as when Av enters we minimize simha, so too when Adar comes we increase (marbin) be-simha" (B. Ta'anit 29a-29b). There is no source, to my knowledge, which states that one must eat meat, drink wine, buy new clothing or get married during the month of Adar because the word "marbin" does not mean one is obligated to do any of these things, only that one should do more than usual. Similarly, while not doing any of the above actions would certainly be considered me-ma'atin, such an extreme is not required during the nine days"
::sigh::
ReplyDeleteWhatever happened to "to each their own" on things like this?
I have no objection to "to each their own". I'm curious how each got to their own, though.
ReplyDeleteEzzie - Where did that quote come from?
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that this issue is one with many shades of gray, and much is up to the individual--obviously, many of the things we're discussing (such as football games) weren't really within the purview of the rishonim, much less the gemara.
The idea, in general, is to mourn during this time. What many have found is that the explicit prohibitions in the gemara do not have the desired effect today--they don't necessarily affect people's lives to the extent that you really feel that this is a period of sadness. And unfortunately, so many of us have such a hard time really feeling the tragedy of the lack of the BHMK that extra limitations are needed to make this time of year distinct.
I know that my Rebbeim take a more stringent view of this issue than the one you have expressed. Even my family Rabbi (not generally a machmir at all) does not allow his family to go to the theater to see movies during the three weeks. One of my Rebbeim from seminary said simply that fun/exciting field trips should be limited during the nine days. Personally, I wouldn't attend a sporting event during this time. But I definitely acknowledge that there is room for many different approaches, and I wouldn’t judge anyone for choosing differently.
I have no objection to "to each their own". I'm curious how each got to their own, though.
ReplyDeleteI would imagine either through their own thought process of what is the correct way to conduct onesself during this time of year or under the direction of someone else's thought process of what is the correct way to conduct onesself during this time of year.
So long as it is not stated in terms of hard and fast halachah I don't really care.
Last one was from a post by R' Josh Yuter on YUTopia, sorry.
ReplyDeleteThe idea, in general, is to mourn during this time.
Just to be a little nuanced, it's to be "m'ma'atin b'simcha", which is slightly different, though I also refer to it as mourning. I wonder if that's the same.
I think that the lack of music and meat are certainly things people find somewhat afflicting; the lack of sadness has more to do with our own disconnect than the lack of restrictions. I don't know that not attending a game or going on a field trip makes one feel closer to the BHMK, either.
In other words, I don't think that adding extra limitations is something we should necessarily be doing. The Gemara tells us that we should be m'ma'atin b'simcha, and tells us how to do so - since when do we start adding on to that?
So long as it is not stated in terms of hard and fast halachah I don't really care.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, I'm more curious if anyone can trace it. Also, I'm more concerned that in the end, it does end up being stated as hard and fast halacha. (For instance, go see the threads on Hashkafa.com right now.)
For the record:
ReplyDeleteThe only chumra I know of in regard to Football stems from a machlokes of whether or not the 1pm game is the ikur way to mekayem the mitzvah of "watching Sunday football" or if the 4pm game also fulfills this chiyuv and in order to make sure according to all dayos one should be machmir and be careful to watch BOTH GAMES.
I think it depends on each individual situation, really. Would you go to a Broadway show (non-musical) during the nine days?
ReplyDeleteI think it depends on how special an event it is. For people who go to a lot of sports games, it's probably not a big deal. But someone for whom going to a sporting event is a humongous treat, it might be different. You know?
Obviously we're still allowed to have fun during the nine days, but I know that I would feel uncomfortable turning one of the nine days into an extra special day by doing something that I consider a big treat (like...would I go to Disney World during the nine days?). That's why I think it depends on the person and the situation.
You've aged yourself. I believe it's the 4:15 game usually, nowadays. :)
ReplyDeleteBut I was always under the impression that on the East Coast, it was the 1:00 game, while for people on the West Coast a heter was made for the later games, as too get up and watch football at 10:00 AM would take away from their lazy Sundays. However, if one lives in the later half of the Midwest or in the South, certainly the 1:00 (12:00) games take precedence, because that is when "real" football is played.
And of course, as you noted, a true oveid watches all the games, which nowadays includes the Sunday night game as it is no longer on cable and often pairs two good teams. There is a one hour break between the 4:15 games and the night game specifically to allow a person to grill meat.
A person who wants to be mikayem the mitzvah in the best way possible will get NFL Sunday Ticket.
I don't know as much as I should about the sources, but...a braita in Taanit describes the correlation between aveilut and Tisha B'av. However, this aveilut is in reverse, because of our disconnect.
ReplyDeleteAn aveil goes from most restrictions to increasingly less (shiva, shloshim, yud bet chodesh), because there the pain is natural, and does not have to be induced. But we get increasingly more stringent (three weeks, nine days, Tisha B'Av itself) because we need to build up the feeling of mourning.
Ramban refers to aveilus for a death as "aveilus chadasha" and aveilus for the BHMK as "aveilus yeshana."
I think there's a difference between a sporting event and a particularly special trip, especially if it involves travel (which is another possible issue).
ReplyDeleteBut everyone's getting a little off topic: I'm not asking whether a person does or doesn't feel comfortable going, I'm asking where we all have the idea from that "fun" = not done during the Nine Days, and that anything that smacks of it is something that a person shouldn't do.
Right - I'm aware that it progresses differently. The reason for this (acc. to RYBS, I believe) is because we can appreciate the death of a loved one immediately, and then we slowly ease off of it. We're not the same way about something we have little/no connection to, so we build up to it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that does not mean we should add on extra to the aveilus. Notice even the Gemara said to be m'ma'atin and not that things were assur.
which nowadays includes the Sunday night game as it is no longer on cable and often pairs two good teams
ReplyDeleteThis only a yesh omrim in the commentaries that has been trumped up in modern times.
A person who wants to be mikayem the mitzvah in the best way possible will get NFL Sunday Ticket.
I have not heard of this but will have to look into it as there would seem to merit in watching ALL of the 1pm games (and/or 4pm games).
I think there's a difference between a sporting event and a particularly special trip
ReplyDeleteBut sometimes sporting events are considered extra special, even if they're not a trip. It depends on the person.
I dunno about fun. I never thought we weren't allowed to have fun. I don't know where that comes from. But maybe that's because I spent the majority of my summers in sleepaway camp where we still did fun things during the nine days. I think people are just trying not to outdo themselves in the fun-category, maybe. I'm not sure.
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ReplyDeleteBut I was always under the impression that on the East Coast, it was the 1:00 game, while for people on the West Coast a heter was made for the later games, as too get up and watch football at 10:00 AM would take away from their lazy Sundays.
ReplyDeleteI too have read/heard of this distinction and would highly advise one to confer with a local Orthodox authority as to how best to proceed.
One must also keep in mind that there may be implications for one who lives on the East Coast and is visiting the West Coast and visa versa. Also, it is not uncommon (lo oleinu) to find those of East Coast decent now living on the West Coast (the reverse is much less common and so is not discussed at length amongst the commentators) at which point family minhag must also be taken into account along with any issues of chumrah.
Also, I just want to add, I think with something like the nine days where it's a period of mourning, people's decisions seem to be based more on personal feeling than on letter of the law. As in, it might not be assur to do something, and it might even be perfectly allowed, but a person might decide that for themselves personally, they don't want to do it. You know what I mean? I think that's fine as long as they don't actually think the thing is assur.
ReplyDeleteOne must also keep in mind that there may be implications for one who lives on the East Coast and is visiting the West Coast and visa versa. Also, it is not uncommon (lo oleinu) to find those of East Coast decent now living on the West Coast (the reverse is much less uncommon and so is not discussed at length amongst the commentators) at which point family minhag must also be taken into account along with any issues of chumrah.
ReplyDeleteFamily minhag is extremely key to any discussions on the subject. A person must watch the game of their team, or their father's team (which should be the same, COUGHRavensCOUGH). A difficulty lies in when a person's team is not being shown live; must they watch the game from the same conference because it is more likely to show highlights, or are they permitted to watch the other game? I've heard that if it is a divisional game, they must watch it, but from outside of the division, they are not required so.
There is also a difficulty for a person who has moved or is temporarily dwelling in Eretz Yisroel, though watching the 1:00 game should be relatively easy, as it is after work (8:00pm). Such a person is not required whatsoever to watch the 4:00 games unless their team is playing; then, they must stay up to watch, even if it means calling in sick or coming late to work the next day.
This is too good to omit...
ReplyDeleteFrom The Muqata:
Try to avoid Kosher restaurants this week that advertise, "Make This the Best 9 Days Ever at Our Kosher Dairy Restaurant." They've totally missed the point.
And I think that's exactly the point.
This brings up an interesting point. If one is set to travel from one city to another are they obligated to push off the estimated time of departure if it will ensure that the game is watched? Relatedly (yes, it's a word) can one move up said departure time so as to ensure that the ETA is prior to kickoff?
ReplyDeleteWait, what were we talking about again?
SJ - Heh. But that's not the point here - nobody is suggesting that people should go out and party. The question is why things that are not restricted are being restricted anyway - we have a list of what is restricted already.
ReplyDeleteTo put it into perspective: Is the issue that a milchig restaurant is drumming up its menu for the 9 days? Le Marais and others have 9 days menus - should they instead shut down to keep within the idea of aveilus? I don't think so. The issue he's mocking is a place that would be saying "make it the best 9 days ever!" Most people try to come up with "better" milchig meals during the 9 days - are they all missing the point as well? I think not.
Erachet - That was G's point above.
G - Why would one schedule a flight during a game? Unless of course the game was moved as it is being played late in the season, in which case a person would be able to be meikel because of hefsed merubah. However, a person is allowed to be machmir and move their flight.
ReplyDeleteShould a friend schedule a wedding during a game, said friend should likely not be a friend, depending on the importance of the game, unless it allows many friends to watch the game together on a very large screen. If said game is the Super Bowl and the person's team of choice is playing (and the odds of such a thing happening were more than 1%), then said friend should possibly be taken to Beis Din and punished accordingly. The wedding, of course, should be pushed back - nobody watches the Pro Bowl.
Erachet - That was G's point above.
ReplyDeleteI resent that!
Oh, and we're talking about Chumras and Football - see the title of the post.
ReplyDeleteIt was implied that the cases of travel dealt with doing so by car.
ReplyDeleteCertainly no one would pre-schedule a flight in such a manner.
If by car, why would they be on a schedule? Certainly they can push it off until after the game or aim to make it before the game. If they get stuck in unforseen traffic, they may listen on the radio, but must try their best to get to a television to see the game as well as quickly as possible.
ReplyDeleteOne is encouraged to turn off most TV announcers and listen to the radio call even while watching on TV, provided they will not get confused and there is no delay.
Should the rare occasion occur where a person is attending a game at 4:00, they are permitted to listen to the end of the 1:00 games on the radio even though they started watching it on TV.
I made both anonymous comments up above (11:04 and 11:05) (and don't worry, you were respectful; I'm flattered my little comment was a springboard for a post and 34 comments :-) ). I don't know where I got it from, it's just a general attitude that I grew up with (to be more careful with everything during the nine days...kinda like during aseres yemei teshuva). Maybe I'm totally making it up; what do you expect from an uneducated girl? ;-) And I've never been to a football game so it WOULD be a big deal. As SJ said, so many of us have a hard time feeling the loss of the BHMK, if not going to a game reminds us that we suffered this loss, then good! I think it's a personal feeling, and I don't think there's something wrong with abstaining.
ReplyDeleteI made both anonymous comments up above (11:04 and 11:05) (and don't worry, you were respectful; I'm flattered my little comment was a springboard for a post and 34 comments :-) ). I don't know where I got it from, it's just a general attitude that I grew up with (to be more careful with everything during the nine days...kinda like during aseres yemei teshuva). Maybe I'm totally making it up; what do you expect from an uneducated girl? ;-) And I've never been to a football game so it WOULD be a big deal. As SJ said, so many of us have a hard time feeling the loss of the BHMK, if not going to a game reminds us that we suffered this loss, then good! I think it's a personal feeling, and I don't think there's something wrong with abstaining.
ReplyDeleteAny excuse to talk football. :D
Right, I figured that's where most people get it from. That's basically my point - is that proper.
Uneducated girl? Ha. If this is who I've been assuming it is, I doubt that...
Never been to a game!?!? Shanda. Still, it's preseason. It's not even training camp where at least you know you'll see the starters for a while.
If not going to a game makes someone feel the churban, great, but I somehow doubt that. In other words - I don't think restricting extra things makes a person remember the BHMK. If someone feels it will help them personally, that's fine - again, I'm not objecting to people doing as they see fit. I'm questioning where this overwhelming idea that we shouldn't do anything that smacks of "fun" in the Nine Days comes from.
A lot of people would say it's assur even not during the Nine Days.
ReplyDelete3 things:
ReplyDelete1. your analysis is flawed- the 9 days is generally more chamur than one in 12 months of aveilus (i am referring to the portion after shiva and shloshim). there is no isur of shaving, laundering etc. during 12 months while there is during the 9 days. so saying "presumably would be ok during the 9 days" is likely incorrect.
2. just b/c your father asked someone who said its not a problem doesn't mean that others wouldn't disagree.
3. black and white halacha does not define the issue regarding sporting events. (the isur presumably comes from the isur of "simchas meirayus" which is really about weddings, bris' etc.) but there is a bigger picture here which u hit on, but i think brushed aside too easily.
yes, halacha tells us what is asur during the 9 days- meat, wine, shaving, laundering etc. but there is a bigger picture of "kal hamisavel al yerushalaim, zocheh v'roeh b'simchasav." obviously this is a subjective line, but this is telling us to limit our fun during these times, so we can focus more on our mourning for yerushalaim. granted, if u dont go to meet Favre tomorrow night, u may not be learning the 5th perek of gitin instead, but there should be some change in our routines to signify and help OURSELVES mourn as best we can for yerushalaim. how many of us shed tears and really feel the loss of yerushalaim? prob not many (granted, i include myself in this) but i dont believe seeing a football game helps either.
Jewboy - Separate issue. The assumption here is that it's fine.
ReplyDeleteNYFunnyMan - Actually surprised nobody raised some of this earlier.
1) Interesting point. I meant in terms of where the halachos come from, so I presumed the regular aveilus is stronger, but that's a good point.
2) Of course, and I was shocked that that wasn't the first question asked. However, the psak seemed to be straightforward whereas had there been other opinions I'd have assumed it would have been stated as such. It's also part of what I was asking - where did everyone learn that such things might not/should not/are not okay? Was it a psak? A suggestion? Just on their own? Etc.
3) Obviously nobody is suggesting that a person should go to a football game in order to feel aveilus*; merely, must someone or should someone restrict themselves in this fashion. I would venture that we should focus on the issurim we are told already and try and become closer through that, rather than adding on new ways.
* Just as a note, a person can make themselves feel the aveilus however they want if they so desire. Yet on the other hand, most people don't generally no matter what they're doing. A person could restrict themselves from everything and grumble how annoying it is to not be able to get a burger, or a person could be at a football game, and think every time the music plays how we don't really listen during this period because of the destruction of the BHMK. And imagine if instead of sitting with thousands in the rain in a beautiful stadium watching a bunch of large men fight over a football, a person were sitting with thousands in the sun in the courtyard of a beautiful Bayis Shlishi watching the Avodah.
or y'all can become sefardi and just hold shavuah 'she chal bo- why oh why did i marry an ashkenaz?!
ReplyDeleteInteresting thread.
ReplyDeleteMy own understanding of Rav Moshe, zt'l is that he makes a distinction between background music and (for lack of a better word) foreground music. For example: It would be permissible to listen to music while driving a car, but it would not be permissible to specifically sit down at home on the couch to listen to your favorite CD.
That said, a person should also be cognizant between the “letter of the law” and the “spirit of the law,” as there is often a very fine line between them.
Regarding ballgames, it was always my understanding that a "mourner" should refrain from “public forms of enjoyment.” Therefore, the question of whether a mourner may attend a ballgame would depend if going to a ballgame is considered a "public form of enjoyment." I have heard some say it is, and others say it is not, for only "Torah" enjoyment is classified as such. For (a bit of a humorous) example: A number of friends posed a “theoretical” question to my 12th grade rebbe. Is it permissible to go to the movies during Sefirah? He said “Yes, it is permissible since the movies are not true enjoyment." Of course, he did not realize this was not so “theoretical…” (For the record: the movie was horrible and was certainly not enjoyable, according to any interpretation!).
At the end of the day, it is interesting to note that Rav Soloveitchik, zt’l, loved learning Maseches Moed Katan (which has a major focus on mourning) because it offers insight into the rationale and mindset of the Sages who decreed many of the laws of “mourning.” These laws are meant to inspire and affect one’s presence and state of mind and this should probably be the underlying consideration when approaching any of these cases.
Of course. I'm merely poking fun.
ReplyDeleteSerach - Har har. :P
ReplyDeleteReb Abe - Fascinating, thank you. Funny - right before you posted, I was saying to a friend that I was surprised nobody had argued "spirit of the law" in those terms. :)
Jewboy - I know, just didn't want anyone else going off in that direction. :)
Serach - exactly! Hehe
ReplyDeleteYou'll find that some opinions oppose or at least discourage attending any spectator sport in a stadium at any time of the year.
ReplyDeleteSome teams are so bad that the joy of watching them is nil, but that may not be relevant.
Are people really that interested in pre-season football games?
ReplyDelete