...Mr. Kevin Bacon - please report to the nearest Chareidi community in Israel...your services are needed pronto:
It would seem that the latest issue de jure destined to lead the People of the Book to the gates of the Hades in an easily held receptacle comprised of wicker are harmonic waves kept to various beats of a quickly repetitive nature.
In short, certain outspoken and 'decision making' individuals from within the Israeli Chareidi community have taken it upon themselves to respectfully disagree with the bandmates of that famed instrumentalist group AC/DC...yes, it seems that in their no so humble opinion "Rock & Roll IS noise pollution and Rock & Roll IS gonna die".
"Now take ahold of your soul…and he is testing us. Every, every day, our lord is testing us. If he wasn't testing us...how would you account...for the sorry state of our society...for the crimes...that plague the big cities of this country...when he could sweep this pestilence from the face of the earth...with one mighty gesture of his hand? If our lord wasn't testing us, how would you account...for the proliferation these days...of this obscene rock and roll music...with its gospel of easy sexuality...and relaxed morality? If our lord wasn't testing us, why, he could take all...these pornographic books and albums...and turn them into one big fiery cinder like that!
But how would that make us stronger for him? One of these days, my lord is going to come to me...and ask me for an explanation...for the lives of each and every one of you. What am I going to tell him on that day?
That I was busy? That I was tired? That I was bored?
No! I can never let up! I welcome his test. I welcome this challenge from my lord...so that one day I can deliver all of you unto his hands. And when that day dawns...I don't want to have to do any explaining! I don't want to be missing...from your lives!
Praise the Lord in singing..."
I would like to move on behalf...ReplyDelete
of most of the senior class of
Mesivta High School that the law...against public dancing within the
town limits of Chareidiville be abolished.
Even if this was not a law...ReplyDelete
which it is...
I'm afraid I would have difficulty
endorsing an enterprise...which is as fraught with genuine peril...as I believe this one to be.
Besides liquor and drugs, which
seem to accompany such an event...the thing that distresses me even more, Ren...is the spiritual corruption that can be involved.
These dances and this kind of music
can be destructive. And Ren, I'm afraid you're gonna find...that most of the people in our community will agree with me.
I just wanted to say a few words about this motion...so that you wouldn't think that we were...encouraging destruction with this idea.ReplyDelete
From the oldest of times, people danced for a number of reasons. They danced in prayer...or so that their crops would be plentiful...
or so their hunt would be good.
And they danced to stay physically fit...and show their community spirit. And they danced to celebrate. And that is the dancing
we're talking about. Aren't we told in Psalms - ''Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song. Let them praise his name in the dance.'
And it was King David—who we read about in Samuel. And what did David do?
What did David do?
What did David do?
''David danced before the Lord with all his might...leaping and dancing
before the Lord.'' Leaping and dancing.
Ecclesiastes assures us...that there is a time for every purpose under heaven. A time to laugh...and a time to weep. A time to mourn...and there is a time to dance.
See, this is our time to dance. It is our way of celebrating life. It's the way it was in the beginning. It's the way it's always been. It's the way it should be now.
I know it's a different issue but the basic principles are the same...and if you don't think that this is where things are headed...ReplyDelete
Does anyone know what the "improper use of the electric bass" would be? On second thought, maybe I don't want to know!ReplyDelete
G- I don't really get that whole section that you quoted- you are obviously mimicking some movie that I didn't see, but in any case:ReplyDelete
Can I ask you a question? I'm not exactly the best example for this in terms of religiosity in music, but why are you taking issue with their stance? I read the article and I also happened to have read the pamphlet that the two Rabbis from from the Committee for Jewish Music published, titled "The Torah is not Hefker" back in the States, and I can say that although I myself personally- er- listen to all this stuff, their book was very solid and neutral, and actually barely adressed the issue from a religious perspective, but rather moved to point out the negative effect of violent music. They were also pushing for classical music and even the adaptation of appropriate non-Jewish music (!), both in the book and in the article. Their point in the book was that music can either uplift you or degrade you, and anything that uplifts you is apprprate. Here is where the line gets blurred, since we are all inspired by various things and I can list songs that at previous time were what I needed but what ideally are unneccessary, being rather depressive and morbid.
But what I wanted to point out was our subjectivity in evaluating such a movement. It seems that no matter what the actual statement is, if it comes from chareidim and they're trying to tell us what to do, then poof! They're automatically a bunch of bumbling fools. I'm sorry to say this, but I think this evaluation is ovely harsh and not accurate. I'm not a big fan of mass hysteria or chumras or any of those stuff. I just don't think you should knock ideas or people without trying to detirmine whether your reaction to it comes from an emotional place or a logical one.
I'm not in your head. Maybe you did seriously listen to their statements and decide that you were in disagreement with them. That I don't know. But what I can say is that I might be sensing (something which I am often guilty of as well) an automatic knee jerk reaction to anything that smacks of extremism and mass control. That repulsion is perfectly valid. Trust me, I understand that and I agree with you on most of your points. I also think the chareidi world has gotten way out of hand on a social level.
HOWEVER, after some experience and thinking, I've realized that I have no problem with devout religous observance persay- a person is entitled to make the choices that are best for them. Kal Va'Chomer- why shouldn't a person grow in Yiddiskeit? And if his way is to close himself off- so who cares? So it's not your way? Fine! My brother and I are completely 180* opposite in our approaches to Yiddishkeit. That's ok! So he'll be Chassidish and I'll be- um- I dunno, YU or something- that's fine! So long as the person making the decisions is making them of his own accord, acting upon his own intelligence, and using his own BECHIRA CHOFSHIS and NESHAMA to guide his life. I agree with you that to a large extent chareidi socity works upon scare tactics and I'm not a fan of these mass teshuva rallies or organizations or movements, mainly because I'm individualistic and more private in this aspect however, I recognize the need for the Rov Am to be "inspired" by mass gatherings and it's just the way the cookie crumbles that you have some people that are leaders and some who are followers.
BUT in any case- moving past my claim that you are biased and reacting too harshly (an arena in which I am skilled), I would like to now adress a different point, and that is the specific issue raised. Wouldn't you agree that while you might not want to participate in such a movement yourself their claims might have validity? Again, I wouldn't want to take responsibility for such a quest myself, but I understand their reasoning. Why wouldn't you allow them the perogative to take the initiative on a matter they feel strongly about?
I myself am really not so clear on what I think about this. I come from a family where we never *heard* of such a thing as listen to a Rebbi, let alone follow him, and in general, I disregard these sort of announcements because I don't think they apply to me or would be helpful. I know what I have to work on and I do what I have to. That doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that perhaps- not definitely- perhaps there is a point in the actual statement itself. Maybe I'm not up to that stage yet and maybe I will never be, and maybe I have the perfect right to choose what areas of Yiddishkeit I seek to grow in insteadof running around to a zillion different Rebbes trying to follow all their different shitas, but I understand their claims and can allow space for acceptance of them. Maybe I don't agree with the crazy way it plays itself out. But I don't say that the issue itself has no validity.
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear by now that I went on a little bit of a ramble here. Excuse the drunkenness, I generally don't write like this, but lack of sleep does things to you...
I hope you can extricate relevant points from this essay and address those pertenent queries.
And what does Kevn Baker have to do with this?ReplyDelete
A)Please re-read the linked article and then decide if the main thrust of your comment is coming from what is therein or moreso from the pamphlet you read (and which I have not).ReplyDelete
If you maintain your position I have no problem getting into this.
-Bacon!, not Baker, Bacon...oy, today's youth. (see added link)
B)You may benefit from renting the linked to movie, it kinf of shows what happens once a community heads down a slippery slope of public-wide mandated rules controled by a selective highly religious few.
C)Relax...you're reading waaay more into this than was intended.
I just read my comment and thought may have too much of a clipped tone (it has been brought to my attention that conveying/deciphering tone is not by best "blog" attribute) .ReplyDelete
So, just to make sure...I am open to talking about your original comment but want to make sure that it is not based on what was written in the pamphlet wereas my post is based solely on the article.
If it is irrelevant then I will respond as best I can.
G- I reread the article and I think I was addressing the issues stated therein.ReplyDelete
I realized that the issue of whether we over-react to anything like this is largely irrelevent and that I wasn't being clear on the larger picture of the matter at hand.
To rephrase and revise:
Whether you disagree or agree with the specific ideas that people have, what do you feel is the correct way to go about conveying these ideas to the public?
So say music isn't your strong point. Say what you are passionate about and what disturbs you most about klal Yisrael is: ___________. Fill in the blank. Obviously, for these people, the state of Jewish frum music today distrubs them. They have a problem with it. It fills them with such horror and sadness to see the Jewish people be engaged in something they are sensitive to and feel strongly is not right. What do they do? They try to do what they can. They go to Rabbis and tell them to ban it. They stop concerts. They want very badly to purge the Jewish world of what they view as destructive.
Basically, what do you think about that? Do you think that they should just let live and allow the public to do what they want? Do you think they should try to intervene in the cause of something they feel very strongly about? Hand in hand, do you feel that anybody can dictate to another what to do? Do you think anyone has the authority to do so? Who has the authority to do so? How far can this go? What is the extent of Da'as Torah? How does one go about leading the public? (or rather,, his public, since I don't believe one person can be Rav to all of klal Yisrael. Which leads me to wonder how Mashiach will rule.)
I suppose that's the more underlying question.
While I may not have time for this today...I will be back.ReplyDelete
You may want to see a post by The WolfReplyDelete
it gets into some of why this gets to me.
Whether you disagree or agree with the specific ideas that people have, what do you feel is the correct way to go about conveying these ideas to the public?ReplyDelete
A - who says these things SHOULD be conveyed to the public? Why does something a specific groups wants to do have to become an issue for anybody else?
B - Clearly, Carefully and Respectfully
So say music isn't your strong point. Say what you are passionate about and what disturbs you most about klal Yisrael is: ___________. Fill in the blank. Obviously, for these people, the state of Jewish frum music today distrubs them. They have a problem with it. It fills them with such horror and sadness to see the Jewish people be engaged in something they are sensitive to and feel strongly is not right.
All well and good...
What do they do?
Here we go...
They try to do what they can.
For themselves or for others? Do you think they see a distinction?
They go to Rabbis and tell them to ban it. They stop concerts. They want very badly to purge the Jewish world of what they view as destructive.
Okay, so here is one of my issues. They have taken a "private" issue and made it publicly mandatory. Signed, sealed, deliverd. Take care now...bye bye then. Under what authority?
Basically, what do you think about that?
Not very much to put it mildly.
Do you think that they should just let live and allow the public to do what they want? Do you think they should try to intervene in the cause of something they feel very strongly about?
Personally, yes. I feel they should worry about themselves and not dictate to others. If they feel so strongly then there are immensely better ways of going about it then through banning, creating halchah were none exists and generally creating a large black/white isssue where non exists.
Hand in hand, do you feel that anybody can dictate to another what to do? Do you think anyone has the authority to do so?
No "anybody"/"anyone" cannot dictate to another what they should do.
Who has the authority to do so? How far can this go?
Good questions, do you think they are asked in situations such as these by those doing the dictating/telling/judging?
What is the extent of Da'as Torah?
Invented term, but if you insist on using it I will say Halachah.
How does one go about leading the public?
With utmost degrees of care and fear.
--Bottom line...I have no problem with anybody making decisions for their lives or for trying to influence, IN THE CORRECT MANNER, the lives of their loved ones.
I have a big problem with dictating to the public at large how things are and should be. Not everything works for everyone, nor should it.
Second, I resent the implications in many of these instances that those who follow are doing God's will and those who do not...well, nebach.
Third, it astounds me the number of people who conatin the arrogance to create halachah were none exists, to create hashkafic issues with none exist, who feel it is their duty to uphold this created from whole cloth standard. It smacks of eliticism, arrogance and contempt for others. It is the method used more often than not by those who wosh to highten theor own standing but can only do so in conjunction with lowering those of others.
Finally, it turns yiddishkeit from a lifestyle into a life sentance.
Do your thing - find your path and be happy. Please, allow others to do the same.
Actually, this issue was turning itself around in my head after I posted that, and I actually came to your conclusion.
About Da'as Torah- personally, I was raised in a home where I never even heard of that word, but since it's thrown around so often in our days, I figured I'd raise the issue.
Good points- well said.