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Wednesday, August 06, 2008

Does "Lakewood" Produce?...

...An interesting line of questioning over at The Artist Formerly Known As The Gadol Hador
The real problem with Lakewood is that you have a huge community of 20 and 30 something males who do nothing productive. Nothing productive for their families, nothing productive for the general society, and nothing even productive for their own Jewish community, or the Jewish community at large. All this has been said many times....But most amazingly of all,...there are thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people sitting in Kollel (all over the world, not just in Lakewood of course), and what are they all producing? Are there any great chiddushim coming out of all this learning? Any major new theologies? Anything at all of any interest or relevance?...What famous sefer or chiddush can anyone recall from the last 20 years from the Kollel world? Anything?
I do not agree completely with the entire train of thought, I do not believe Torah learning is 100% valued by the "ends".

However there is what to be said for the thought process behind his argument, in my opinion.

33 comments:

  1. and what would that line of reasoning be may i ask?

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  2. I've long asked the same question, albeit noting your caveat as well.

    I don't think it's really the question one wants to ask, though. I think that presumably within the Orthodox community we're giving weight to the idea of Torah study in general. The question is dedicated Torah study at the expense of everything else, and even if one thinks it is a good idea for individuals, does that hold true for a community as a whole.

    Part of that debate often cites that a reason for massive dedicated Torah learning is because otherwise we would not be able to create "gedolim". One can argue whether that is in fact the case for a variety of reasons on each side. However, should such an approach not truly produce anything of great Torah value, and particularly the gedolim it is supposed to be creating, it undermines the argument greatly.

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  3. I like this idea because it accepts the premise that if kollel did produce those seforim/chiddushim/theologies/gedolim as they claim it would, it would be worthwhile.

    However, while we obviously value Torah learning in and of itself, the innovation of the large-scale kollel was introduced post-war to rebuild the ranks, as it were, and accomplish the aforementioned goals.

    If there is no longer a need for the former and it shows no demonstrable success in the latter, can it really justify the deviation from the traditional/historical norm at great expense to the community at-large?

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  4. I've tended to regard the Kollel as a fireplace in the heart of a home. You need to keep the fire going. You don't need to be cooking in there. But if the fire goes out, the whole house goes cold.

    Of course, the size of the fire, or the number of people tending it, is up for debate.

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  5. How about simply asking the kollel to produce men who live by the Torah principles of Ahavas Yisrael and Ben Adam L'Chaveiro? If I saw all that Torah learning producing people who treated each other well and truly did good deeds and helped each other, as well as lived by those guidelines set forth in the Torah they were learning, then maybe it would be considered worthy. Unfortunately, I don't really see that happening.

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  6. How about simply asking the kollel to produce men who live by the Torah principles of Ahavas Yisrael and Ben Adam L'Chaveiro?

    This would actually have been my other possible comment, albeit quite differently.

    Another possible response to the original question would be to say that they have created communities of people who follow Torah and mitzvos, who dedicate their lives to serving God and helping one another, to spreading Torah throughout the world, to making a Kiddush Hashem wherever they go.

    However, if they are not doing so, or even if they are not doing so anymore than those who are not in such an environment, then this argument falls flat on its face as well.

    I think it's hard to say that they're not creating a Torah-based community that is generally decent, whatever flaws it may have. It is much harder, however, to argue that they are doing so at a better rate than other Jewish communities and other approaches, and that learning full-time somehow gives them an edge in this regard.

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  7. I like this idea because it accepts the premise that if kollel did produce those seforim/chiddushim/theologies/gedolim as they claim it would, it would be worthwhile.

    I don't know that it accepts that; it simply notes that IF one could assign a particularly "goal" to the kollel world, this is an obvious one to choose, and it seems to be failing at that.

    If there is no longer a need for the former and it shows no demonstrable success in the latter, can it really justify the deviation from the traditional/historical norm at great expense to the community at-large?

    Fair question.

    I've tended to regard the Kollel as a fireplace in the heart of a home. You need to keep the fire going. You don't need to be cooking in there. But if the fire goes out, the whole house goes cold.

    I think the question here is whether this particular fire has any warmth.

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  8. Along the lines of what Psychotoddler said, I think it's nice to have people learning Torah full time. However, IMO, all learning should have some form of teaching/giving back. If a man feels (or if his rebbeim feel) that he could be the next Rosh Yeshiva or great Torah Scholar, then he should be learning full time, and maybe receive a stipend/salary. But he should be demonstrating that his path will lead to an end result. If a man is not going to be using his Torah learning to make his parnassah, I don't think he should be taking from the community. I like the idea of guys learning and going to college at the same time. Whether single or married, you can usually support yourself during college (parents help out most of the time, or spouse can be primary breadwinner for a few years), but after graduation, most people should be out there in the workforce and learning at night (or whenever you make time for it). Kollels that give back to the community, by teaching classes, etc. serve a much better purpose.

    I think that presumably within the Orthodox community we're giving weight to the idea of Torah study in general. The question is dedicated Torah study at the expense of everything else, and even if one thinks it is a good idea for individuals, does that hold true for a community as a whole.

    I personally do not believe in Torah study at the expense of everything else. I believe that one should make Torah study an important part of one's life, but I believe that LIVING according to the ideals of the Torah is more important. Learning Torah is being used as a cop-out to avoiding living a Torah-true life.

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  9. SaraK - That sounds a lot like RIETS, Chofetz Chaim, parts of NIRC, and other places.

    I believe that LIVING according to the ideals of the Torah is more important.

    Agreed. I think that goes back to what Shoshana was saying - if the Kollel world were able to better demonstrate that their lifestyle better allows them to live a Torah lifestyle (Bein Adam L'Chaveiro and Bein Adam L'Makom), then it would have strength. However, if it does not, then it loses that argument.

    Note that presumably, people in Kollel feel that in fact it does do this.

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  10. and what would that line of reasoning be may i ask?

    What is the "goal" of the Kollel system?

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  11. I've thought about this a lot. I understand, of course, that it is crucial for members of the Jewish nation to immerse themselves in Torah - but like Ezzie said, is it at the expense of other important things?

    First of all, so many yeshivas go around asking tzeddaka from the Jews who actually work for a living, and while there's nothing wrong with one Jew supporting another, it seems almost selfish for the community that other Jews are helping to support not to produce anything or even have anything to show for their efforts. It also is a bit uncomfortable the way working Jews are viewed by those sitting in kollel all day. This goes back to the "you are sub-part" issue. Working Jews are being counted on to help support yeshivas, and then they're also looked at as being sub-par. Where is the balance here?

    The other thing is that learning full time is not for everyone and, it's kind of a separate issue again, but in very enclosed communities where the pressure is put on people to learn instead of go to college, those who just don't have it in them to sit and learn all day end up kind of lost in the shuffle. I think the focus of some communities needs to be shifted from "Jews who learn all day are better Jews" to "it's important to have Jews who learn full-time, but only those who can actually handle it/those for whom this lifestyle will be most productive and rewarding, and for those who it won't be, it's important for them to develop their skills in other areas so they can support their families and the Jewish community. And both kinds of Jews are vital and necessary."

    I don't really know. That's just my own kinda inexperienced opinion.

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  12. what I cannot understand is why in a discussion regarding whether a lifestyle which many scholars, rabbis live as no one will deny that,
    are people throwing out opinions of what is right or what is wort more,without sources?

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  13. Wow, I think that was all rather confusing. I think what I'm trying to say is, I think it should be a team effort. And I think that the right people should be doing the right jobs - either learning or learning and working or whatever. It's unproductive if you have the wrong people doing the wrong things.

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  14. And er, uh, the ultimate goal being...greater understanding of how to live a Torah lifestyle. What our goal has always been. To live by the Torah. And those who learn should share what they learn with others.

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  15. perplexed,

    Speaking for myself...this discussion is not about the lifestyle in the abstract or as lived by, as you say, scholars and rabbis. The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal norm.

    As for sources, off the top of my head one could start with Berachot daf, lamed hay:amud aleph (35a)

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  16. Part of that debate often cites that a reason for massive dedicated Torah learning is because otherwise we would not be able to create "gedolim"

    BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where are all the gedolim that are BMG graduates?

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  17. The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal norm.

    I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a straight face) for financial support from working people while at the same time making those people feel they are only second best.

    I am a big fan of the CC and NIRC "out of town" kollels where the kollel guys give back to the community and really make a difference. Those who are not as learned really gain from having the kollel in their community and are happy to support it, because they, as individuals and as a community, get benefit from it.

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  18. I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a straight face) for financial support from working people while at the same time making those people feel they are only second best.

    Exactly! It has to be a TEAM. And all members of the team are valuable!

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  19. To be fair, there are two sides to the learning in kollel while being supported by the community issue. Side one: you want to learn full time and I am willing to contribute money so that you can do so. No one forces me to do so (at least not at gunpoint). Because I contribute the money I have a chalek in your learning, am "credited" for that chalek. That is my return on my investment. If I am not happy with the return on my investment, if I want more or different, then I needed to set up the terms differently from the beginning. I needed to say that in addition to learning in kollel I expect you to contribute visibly to the community at large in X,Y and Z manner. If you don't agree then I don't pay.

    Side two: if I am learning in kollel, and being subsidized by you to do so, then I owe you to be the best learner possible, to take full advantage of the opportunity that you are providing to me. And surely I owe hakoras ha'tov for what you have enabled me to do. I surely should not be making comments that denigrate those who work and don't learn full time--biting the hand that feeds me with a vengeance.

    Since neither side seems to be happy with the bargain made then the terms of the "contract" need to be renegotiated. What is reasonable to expect on both sides?

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  20. Since neither side seems to be happy with the bargain made

    Totally off topic but why do you think this to be the case?

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  21. . וכן בכלל האפיקורס - האומר: מה הועילו לנו הלומדים בלמודם

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  22. perplexed,

    Speaking for myself...this discussion is not about the lifestyle in the abstract or as lived by, as you say, scholars and rabbis. The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal norm.


    Agreed. I think most people here seem to have noted this in some form or other - there certainly is value to having select individuals pursue lives of learning and teaching Torah. The question is on the widespread practice of it.

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  23. ProfK - I don't think those are the two sides at all. I presume that most people wouldn't begrudge those who are happy to support someone and have worked out a deal (of their own choosing, not because they felt they were supposed to/had to) with someone who is truly dedicated to learning full-time. That is their individual prerogative.

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  24. וכן בכלל האפיקורס - האומר: מה הועילו לנו הלומדים בלמודם

    ...note again both the post and the comments following. Read it carefully.

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  25. no ezzie, the post and some comments questioned the value of learning without "giving back" that quotes is directed at such people who don't realize that they are gaining immensely from people just sitting and learning

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  26. Anon - From the post:

    I do not agree completely with the entire train of thought, I do not believe Torah learning is 100% valued by the "ends".

    From the comments:

    I've long asked the same question, albeit noting your caveat as well.

    while we obviously value Torah learning in and of itself

    I've tended to regard the Kollel as a fireplace in the heart of a home. You need to keep the fire going.

    Etc.

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  27. Any discussion of sources would distract from the matter at hand.

    This is not about a 3,000 year old machlokes about working vs. learning, real or contrived.

    Any sources people could marshal in support of kollel would be timeless, so it wouldn't explain why a recent histoirical anomaly should be perpetutated; that wold require some sort of svara as to why nowadays requires a different metzius, as it were.

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  28. BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where are all the gedolim that are BMG graduates?

    Would you really be happy with more gedolim to listen to?

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  29. Would you really be happy with more gedolim to listen to?

    With all due respect this says alot about what you consider the role of a Gadol.

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  30. >BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where are all the gedolim that are BMG graduates?

    >>Would you really be happy with more gedolim to listen to?
    ------------------

    Avoiding the question...unless admitting to the main point of said question and simply trying to change the subject.

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  31. stop fighting a losing battle

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  32. Motty - To whom are you referring, and about what?

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  33. I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a straight face) for financial support from working people while at the same time making those people feel they are only second best.

    You should see the people who show up at my door.

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