The heavyweights of the haredi Lithuanian yeshiva world gathered Saturday night in Jerusalem to warn an audience of thousands of male, married yeshiva students that haredi women's dresses are too short, their wigs are too long, and their sweaters, shirts and blouses are too tight.I saw this first at Town Crier, and my first thought was, "Well, it looks like they're finally going to discuss what is and isn't true modesty - good for them! No more 'Hot Chanies'..." I skimmed the article, laughed at some of it ("modesty tailors"? "The Guardians of Holiness and Education"?! Are you kidding?), and didn't pay much attention to it.
But after reading Shoshana and David's excellent posts [read them!], I realize I didn't read it closely enough. Not only were singles restricted from this gathering, but so were all women. That's like having a meeting about a school without the teachers, or a hospital without the doctors. (Or having a politician call for a draft that the Army doesn't think it needs. Ugh.) Then there were the really strange lines:
"Each and every father and husband has an obligation to vigilantly ensure that his wife's and daughters' dress is in accordance with the laws of modesty."I could go on about this, but it will never compare to Shoshana's great rant on it. Suffice it to say that the last thing I want to be doing every day is "vigilantly ensuring" that Serach's dress is in accordance with the laws of modesty. I mean, seriously: I might as well kill myself now. More importantly, I think that Serach does a fine job dressing herself. I'm with Trep also on the 'activists' who volunteered to check out stores and advise them on what is and isn't modest:
Yeah, I'll bet. I can already see the men lining up for the arduous task of standing outside the dressing rooms to give the thumbs-up or thumbs-down to the outfits as they emerge. Way to take one for the team, guys!Heh. As I commented by Shoshana: Ahh, Judaism. Whatever happened to you?!
UPDATE: Heh. Looks like other have made the "Hot Chanie" connection as well...
Others on this subject: Orthomom, Ask Shifra (the creator of the term "Hot Chanie"), and Jewish Blogmeister.
And now, Ayelet, with a different and interesting perspective.
The truth of the matter is, the Rabbis are correct. Many women now will done clothing that is "just just" and extremely tight. I went to a lchaim the other night and I couldnt differ between the married and unmarried women. Why? becuase of the ridiculuous "sheitels" they have now. Honestly, maybe the reason why the Rabbonim didnt allow women wo attend the meeting is exactly why the set the meeting up; because they're tired of seeing provactively dressed women. Is it up to the husbands to tell their wives how to dress? Not entirely, but if yo show your wife you care, so will she.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the meeting 100%
I went to a lchaim the other night and I couldnt differ between the married and unmarried women. Why? becuase of the ridiculuous "sheitels" they have now.
ReplyDeleteThat's a completely different (halachic) issue. Is there a problem with sheitls looking real? Depends who you ask. The religious Zionist crowd in Israel won't wear sheitls at all, for that reason, and wear hats instead. Others say that there's no problem with wigs, and there should be no difference in whether they look real or not. It's a matter of whether the hair is covered, period, (because of ervah) not how fancy it looks.
Honestly, maybe the reason why the Rabbonim didnt allow women wo attend the meeting is exactly why the set the meeting up; because they're tired of seeing provactively dressed women.
That's disgusting and illogical. You sound like you're saying that "well, they're doing this wrong, so it's up to us to tell them what to do".
Is it up to the husbands to tell their wives how to dress?
No.
if yo show your wife you care, so will she
I assume you mean that if you show you care, she'll care too. That's true, and a good point. So what better way to do so than to have a discussion with the women themselves, in a public forum, where nobody has to feel embarrassed? That's a lot better than having a husband come back from some gathering that was for men only that discussed women's clothes, and then tell his wife "You need to dress more modestly, we just decided at this gathering!" That's just sick.
Far be it for me to defend the wackos, but I can understand not wanting women present at such a talk -- what if a woman present is wearing something a Rabbi is saying is immodest? Talk about embarrassing someone in public.
ReplyDelete"Each and every father and husband has an obligation to vigilantly ensure that his wife's and daughters' dress is in accordance with the laws of modesty."
Putting my rabid atheist hat back on, this quote hints at the root cause of tznius rules -- men wanting to control "their" women. (Lehavdil, of course) you see this much worse in some of the Muslim countries, where extreme male control is strongly correlated with more and more absurd levels of "tnius."
what if a woman present is wearing something a Rabbi is saying is immodest? Talk about embarrassing someone in public.
ReplyDeleteI thought about that. It's the *only* decent reason I can think of. However, I don't buy it.
Putting my rabid atheist hat back on
You crazy fundamentalist. :)
the root cause of tznius rules -- men wanting to control "their" women.
I both agree and disagree. The way this was worded bothers me specifically for that reason - and it's because the way most of us understand tznius, it's NOT about control at all. It's about modesty under certain guidelines, and they're not all that different from the guidelines one would see in a serious workplace.
it's because the way most of us understand tznius, it's NOT about control at all. It's about modesty under certain guidelines, and they're not all that different from the guidelines one would see in a serious workplace.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to say that men are necessarily consciously trying to control women. However, I think a lot of the rules come from that desire, however it's justified. I believe this is shown in the way that women are consistently held to a higher standard of modesty than men -- whether it's covering of the hair, kol isha, adultery, etc. Reading the Torah without commentary (which I take to be the original meaning) it's clear that a woman or girl was seen as a man's property -- first the father's, then the husband's.
See R' Yehua Herzl Henkin's article on tsnius "Contemporary Tsniu'ut"-- actual halacha vs. the spin put on it. It was printed in Tradition 37:3 and is accessible online. (I just don't have the URL) Unlike books like R' falks, he actually traces the sources, their historical interpretations, and the ramifications for what must be covered. He offers an excellent critique of that book. I actually have the book by R' Falk in my possession. I would never buy it. I was given it by a neighbor who said her husband had bought it for her, but it she declares it too frum for her standards. So much for husbands setting the law for wives. I guess she thinks it would be fine for me. Personally, I have no great temptation to wear tight or short clothes, and I agree that it is not correct. However, that is not the same as pretending that these particular parameters are discussed at lenght in sources. I also strongly disagree with his stance that what Torah does for a man, tsnius does for a woman. Thus women's sole role is to work on this trait. How one is supposed to do that 24/7 is beyond me. I know it's b/c I haven't reached the stage of englightenment presumed by R' Falk's audience. When I once reported his tsnius equation to a group of young women who were well -brainwashed .. . er, I mean educated in the right-wing perspective, they insisted that his point of view must be based on the Gemara. Right, as my husband says, it's amazing that that tsnius mesechta is missing from his sets. And he's gone through Shas twice without coming across this supposedly Gemara based concepts.
ReplyDeleteAs for daughters, though they are subject to peer pressure, they are most likely to accept the standards they see in their mothers. Also dads rarely go clothes shopping with their daughters, so it really falls into the mother's realm to distinguish between what outfits are ok and what is not.
JA - Again, this comes down somewhat to whether the Torah was written by men or God. If you believe the former, then undoubtedly it is based on such a presumption as was common in those days.
ReplyDeleteAriella - I know of many people, very knowledgeable, who are not fans of R' Falk's book. (I have never read it myself.)
As for people's knowledge of tznius, I've noticed that even people like myself who know little seem to know a lot more than some of the brainw- er, right-wing educated out there. (And I was RW-educated.) I recently had to give someone who was complaining about certain types of brainwashing a bit of an education lesson regarding pants, which they said were absolutely not something that "frum" people wear; I noted that there are shittos who hold very specifically that certain women's pants not only are not as bad as some of the skirts people wear, but absolutely permissible. Does everyone hold of this? No. But it is a halachic discussion, not a clear-cut automatic.
that's like trying to have a meeting about a school without the teachers
ReplyDeletefunny you should choose sthose exact words as an example. anything can happen here in israel -- the quote above actually did happen -- though with the entire ministry of ed trying to push through major reforms without consulting one teacher. not surprisingly, it never really worked. so, no, i am not at all in the least surprised that a meeting discussing women's mode of dress took place without one woman in attendance.
it's a multi-layered issue with women wanting to look attractive, fashion being what it is, and what is genenrally available here in israel -- which as i wrote on shifra's blog, either look like a hot chanie (even if not everyone has a hot chanie body) or a potato sack. i'm not defending hot chanies, i happened to have seen the effect of one on a single male relative of mine this past weekend and it was scary. i'm not entirely sure her husband would have wanted that particular reaction from another guy -- and good looking and single at that.
a very good friend of mine recently stopped covering her hair. what amazed her was the amount of people whos asked her,"what does your husband think?" the truth is, her husband couldn't have cared less either way. his take is, it's your head, it's your choice. women's mitvot should be taken care of by women -- and if men are having problems with something, there are ways to discuss this with women who are in leadership positions, who can in turn call for discussions with the women in their communities.
Mdmom - Great comment. However, we have lots of friends and relatives in Israel and while some may dress like they're wearing potato sacks, the vast majority do not - and look nothing like Hot Chanies.
ReplyDeleteAs to whose business it is... Amen!
(I chose the schools example because I know it happens. Ugh. How stupid...)
I blame myself - I blog about the problem, Agudah lashes out against blogs (causing Charedim to actually READ then) followed by a condemnation of Hot Chanies!
ReplyDeleteCoincidence? I think not!
Shifra - LOL. Who knows?! You may be right. Now go put on a potato sack and stay away from the computer like a good maidele.
ReplyDeleteI didn't read through the comments, because then I always forget what it is I wanted to say, so forgive me if I'm repeating what other have said (although I doubt it).
ReplyDeleteBasically, I think it is a good thing.
Like you said, these husbands don't always take notice that their wives are "hot chanies" and someone should be brave enough to tell them that their wives need to stay up to par with the standards that they expect.
As for not having women there-
who are you kidding??? These are ultra orthodox charedi men. Need I say more?
I just posted on this topic as well.
ReplyDeleteI am just so lucky that I found this post. I read the whole article and I read had a great time reading it. I find it very interesting.
ReplyDelete