Recently, we have noticed an interesting phenomenon when talking to some of our friends who are single. It is not necessarily "new", but it has raised some questions and ideas that are worthy of more discussion.
One of Serach's best friends has been planning a move to the New York area, and was discussing various options with us. Her most important desired quality wherever she goes is that there be an "established community" - she does not want to be part of a "singles scene", though having some singles around is nice, but prefers to be around an actual community. She wants to be around families, she wants there to be shiurim and the like available to attend and be a part of, and she wants there to be a sense of stability among the people there.
Meanwhile, a really good friend of mine who is single recently finished his schooling, and decided that rather than move back to the tri-state area, he was going to move back to his hometown and work there (and only three and a half days a week to allow for travel among other things). He is living at home for now, and calculated that even if he moved out and got his own place, his cost-of-living savings would be enough for him to afford to fly into New York every weekend if he so desired, and still come out ahead. As he put it, "Why should I move to New York? So I can live near [Shul X] and be one of hundreds of singles there in the same stupid meat market and kill myself to work and sit in annoying traffic or on dirty subways and have no money left? I'm much happier this way, thanks."
More recently, another friend interviewed for a position in Cleveland. She, too, is single, and asked if there was anyone "young and single" there. I replied "Young, yes; single, some". After spending a weekend in the area, she's apparently considering it strongly enough that another friend tonight was asking me what I thought about her moving there as well. Interestingly, we had just spent the weekend at the Lander Alumni Shabbaton with a lot of friends, and there's a decent possibility that some of our closest friends will be moving to Cleveland soon - on top of the ones that are already there.
I replied to the friend tonight that Cleveland is a great place to live. That said, you don't go there as a Single to be a part of a Singles community, but you go there to be a part of the community. For a single concerned about dating, there is almost certainly a large negative impact which is obvious that comes from moving away from the central hub of New York dating; there's possibly a small positive impact that comes from exposure to new people, to people with different mindsets and approaches to dating and life in general, and just the way those people may be able to help you with dating when they can. Certainly overall from a strictly getting dates perspective, though, moving away from the tri-state area would seem to be a net negative for most people.
But thinking about these various friends and how they would be impacted on a personal level by living away from the tri-state area, I couldn't help but wonder if it still would make sense for them, even as it pertains to dating. There's something - a lot, really - to be said for being happier and feeling more accomplished, and it seems obvious that those traits would positively impact a person as they date. Particularly for those who maybe feel a bit lost in the sea of singles in the New York area, living elsewhere and saving up some money and moving up in life a bit can help someone stand out a bit more both in the world of shidduchim and more importantly, on dates themselves. Rather than being viewed and viewing themselves in the lens of just another guy or girl being stacked against the dozens of people around them, they are able to think of themselves differently, which in turn lets their dates see them differently.
Every time I start to think about this, I can't help but think of my good friend and how he would be viewed versus how he is viewed. If he were here, he'd be just another Jewish guy who does pretty well and you may remember meeting him once. But where he is, he's not just another guy - he's a guy who "everyone knows" is hilarious, who "everyone knows" is tight with his family and great with kids, who "everyone knows" is really personable and on top of all that, "everyone knows" he's also successful and putting away for the future and has a real leg up on life. And "everyone knows" this because everyone knows him. He's a part of the community, just like everyone else.
Perhaps there's something to be said for community; perhaps it's not so crazy for singles to move away from the hubbubs of single-dom and into established communities (whether in New York or outside of it, though I believe it is easier to integrate away from large groups of singles). As another friend said recently, the "shidduch crisis" can affect you regardless. Perhaps having singles who are happy and fulfilled is the best solution of all - after all, even if it's no better than now, at least you're happier and more fulfilled in life.
Perhaps.
A friend said the middle got a bit fuzzy, so:
ReplyDeleteFriend: I do agree with this article, but in the long run
you are probably still doing more potential harm to your marriage possibility.
Me: I kind of say that in the middle. Put it this way: The average person will definitely have less dates but their dates will likely be much better than they would be otherwise.
Friend: But will be infinitely happier along the way.
Me: And that. Sooo... which impacts actually getting married more? I'm not sure.
As a member of a large singles community, I would say that the biggest plus is precisely that: the community. I get to be a member of a shul where singles don't stick out like sore thumbs with no real place. The shul board, events committees, gabbaim, etc. are made up (mostly) of singles. Yes, there are downsides to living in this community; it definitely feels different than a standard shul with a more varied demographic, but we have a very active shul with plenty of shiurim and events catered to the needs and interests of the membership. In more standard communities, singles often feel sort of ostracized, as if they have no real role, living in a useless in-between stage. Living where I do is beneficial not just for dating, but from a general social perspective: I have lots of friends, which makes me happier as well, and I can feel like a contributing member of the community.
ReplyDeleteElla - Certainly there are advantages in many ways to living in a singles community, and the post was "perhaps" for a reason - it certainly is not suggested that everyone would be better off.
ReplyDeleteThat said, a lot of people have noted (and I've never lived in one, so this is from singles) that large singles communities have the downsides you mentioned and others: Lack of stability since it's transient and people don't get married and stay a part of the same community, but instead move on and away. Or that there's a near dedication to living a single life vs. looking to continue through various stages of life among some members.
Do singles really feel so ostracized in more standard communities? Some have said this, but the singles we've spoken to in such communities typically love it; then again, they've chosen those communities for the most part. I'd also imagine that it's more likely to occur in larger communities, where people are not as closely tied to one another in general and a newcomer isn't necessarily recognized as such, or people are less likely to attempt to be inclusive. Do you think this is true; i.e. when people have felt ostracized, when/where did that feeling occur?
Also, is it a perceived ostracism, or are there actual occurrences which lead people to feel this way? Is it that these singles prefer a singles community? I've heard of singles who felt ostracized in singles communities as well - they weren't from the right background or in the right cliques - so I wonder if those factors all play a role.
Certainly I'd imagine that people such as how you've described yourself - those with lots of friends, who are contributing directly to their community - would often be better off like that than in a broader community or in a smaller town. But I can't help but wonder if there's a large segment of the population who would be better off in something different.
I think the assumption you are making here is that singles are happier in these smaller or non-single communities - and that should also be up for discussion, regardless of the impact on dating. A lot of frum communities, and especially the smaller ones, are extremely family-oriented and singles are often kind of swept to the wayside and feel like they don't (or actually don't) have a place, they don't have peers to be friends with, they don't have those who can commiserate and their single status is highlighted so sharply that they can't possibly forget it for a second. That doesn't make for being happier, especially when you combine it with the already-mentioned side effect of having more trouble getting dates when you are "OOT."
ReplyDeleteHaving been there, done that, I think there can be a balance struck between living on the Upper West Side and living in Cleveland. There are some nice communities in the tri-state area where singles are very much an active part of things while the families around them nurture and take care of them as well and it's not so much of a meat market.
Finally, having said all that, I think in the end, not one thing makes everyone happy and you ultimately have to figure it out for yourself, while being aware that there are consequences to every decision as well. Kol hakovod to those who want to live in Cleveland (and I hope they have good snow shovels ;)
You know I'd have a lot to say, right? :)
ReplyDeleteI think a huge part of it is personality. Some people will get swallowed up in a singles community, because they aren't outgoing enough to differentiate themselves from everyone around them. Others will be so miserable in an OOT, family oriented community because all their friends talk about is tuition and carpools. I think that everyone (single, married, whatever) needs peers who they can relate to and who they can hang out with, so in general I would advise someone who is single to at least make sure there are a few single people in his/her community. NY is definitely not for everyone, and if you are willing to take a more proactive approach in dating (ie: internet, making lots of contacts, coming to NY area often enough that you don't seem extremely geographically undesirable), you can be very happy living OOT. But some communities are just not welcoming to singles, or they don't know what to do with them.
I think a place like Baltimore is a great "in-between". Plenty of singles who are very involved in the community. No one will look at you funny if you are on a committee for a community event or invite married people for a Shabbas meal, yet you are not living in a "singles scene". IN NY, I think KGH is the closest to that :)
Shoshana - To clarify, I'm not making the assumption for all, and I am specifically splitting happiness related to dating from happiness related to other things. The people in this post which started this line of thinking are those who also feel that in non-dating areas of life, they would be happier in other situations, whether because of their jobs or simply not living in an area such as NYC. If someone would not be happier elsewhere, then there's nothing to discuss in the first place - why move somewhere where you'll be unhappy in all aspects?
ReplyDeleteI agree that there are communities that are "in between" - as SaraK noted, she feels (and others have said) that Kew Gardens Hills is like that; in fact, we gave the first friend mentioned in the post that exact recommendation, while that friend is thinking perhaps Far Rockaway would work for them.
And of course, I think there are a ton of factors in the end; my point here was merely to note that perhaps it shouldn't be "access to dates" above all - that perhaps being happier in life in general is most important, and that that would translate into better, albeit less, dating experiences.
SaraK - I did! :)
ReplyDeleteSome people will get swallowed up in a singles community, because they aren't outgoing enough to differentiate themselves from everyone around them. Others will be so miserable in an OOT, family oriented community because all their friends talk about is tuition and carpools. I think that everyone (single, married, whatever) needs peers who they can relate to and who they can hang out with, so in general I would advise someone who is single to at least make sure there are a few single people in his/her community.
Agreed.
NY is definitely not for everyone, and if you are willing to take a more proactive approach in dating (ie: internet, making lots of contacts, coming to NY area often enough that you don't seem extremely geographically undesirable), you can be very happy living OOT.
Logical balance and agreed. My friend in the post is like that - "I'm putting away enough cash to come wherever, whenever."
But some communities are just not welcoming to singles, or they don't know what to do with them.
So that's what Ella said - is that really the case? Are places legitimately unwelcoming? And I think I understand the second aspect, but can someone clarify? Is it that there's too much marriage/kids talk, or that there's not enough geared to non-couples, or that people overdo the conversations with them about dating as if they must not have any other part of their lives? A combination of all those and more?
I think a place like Baltimore is a great "in-between". Plenty of singles who are very involved in the community. No one will look at you funny if you are on a committee for a community event or invite married people for a Shabbas meal, yet you are not living in a "singles scene". IN NY, I think KGH is the closest to that :)
I figured that paragraph was coming. :)
I'd also be curious the other way - did people who moved to NYC or similar, or who moved to a large singles community from a non, find that their overall dating experience improved that much as to outweigh other factors. Perhaps that's for another post, though.