Can someone tell me what is the deal with Triangle-K. The only thing people ever say is that its unreliable, but why? Does anyone actually know the reason? My friend is having a party but serving Hebrew National Hot Dogs which has Triangle K.
I don't know the history of Hebrew National SINCE the death of Tibor Stern some 10 years ago. When Tibor was the Mashgiach, pork had a better chance of being Kosher...
The Triangle K is one those hechsherim that never makes it into the list of acccepted hechsherim. Don't know why.
For meat...yeah, well, perhaps one of the better explanations I've heard is the question of where they could get so much kosher meat?
For other (non-meat) items, there are those who say that triangle k is acceptable.
Interestingly enough, I saw a number of (non-meat) products in Israel with the triangle K and the ishur of the rabbanut. I saw some those products in the homes of people whose kashrut I trust, so...who knows?
not okay. no one has budged on this one in all the years. it has been at least 20 years. now, i will eat canned vegies and cold snacks with this hechsher, but, frankly, most people don't touch it in any form.
As a former mashgiach for a local vaad, the standard answer, indeed, is that it's not Glatt. I'd go to the party and simply eat something else or use the "I haven't been feeling to well and a hot dog would send me over the edge" excuse.
I would have no problem eating non glatt meat. I asked my Rav about the hecksher and he said not to eat anything processed with OIL with that hecksher. So there's the glatt issue, but there's also an issue with oil. I think we eat something with this hecksher that doesn't have oil, but I can't remember what---- (what hecksher do sunmaid raisins have? maybe that's it?)
The fruit juice is a problem because of a kulah the Ralbags use regarding grape juice. SOME Ravs say it's ok to drink 100% juice (I think Motts has some) but no mixed fruit drinks that may have grape juice.
here's the oil thing.
The Triangle K hasgacha's validity has been debated over the years, regarding Ralbag's acceptance of tank trucks transporting both kosher and non-kosher cooking oil. There was an opinion that Ralbag was overly lenient in how a tank truck had to be cleaned after transporting non-kosher foods.
I went to HIgh scool, and was classmates, with Rabbi Ralbag's (the rabbi who gives kashruth certification to triangle K)grandaughter, she herself wouldnt eat triangle K. I asked her why and then asked my dad why we dont eat it. My dad said that rabbi ralbag is a huge talmid chacham and knows a lot of torah, but he dosent know enough about whats going on in the world of trade and commerce, which is extremly crucial in the world of kashruth. For example the machines that triangle k uses to make their cranberry juice is used by traders of pork.
I hope this answers at least part of your question.
To add- they know what do in situations, but dont exactly know aBOUT SITUATIONS GOING ON IN THE WORLD ( in terms of trade, commerce, machinery, etc. and these are imp. things to know in the kashruth world) rabbi ralbag (ZL) himself was niftar, and I am not sure who took over, but regardless they are still using the same plants and machinery they used in the past, so nothing has changed.
In fact, Hebrew National's meat operation has been moved twice that I know of, most recently from Indiana to Michigan, and the equipment is not all the same.
I know the rabbi who has directly overseen the plant kashrus at these two locations, and he's a serious, conscientious person.
It's still not glatt and doesn't claim to be, but the other concerns about their meat may be out of date---check with a posek of stature in the area of commercial kashrus.
Twins Mommy and Confused-You should be able to eat any of those products without a heksher anyways. See Rabbi Eidlitz's list of products for which a heksher is not needed at kosherquest.org.
I don't know why Triangle K is not accepted. I just hope it is for good reason because yashrut is as important as kashrut.
For example the machines that triangle k uses to make their cranberry juice is used by traders of pork.
I find this very hard to believe.
For what exactly do traders of pork use juice-making machinery?
You had better have a source for that, otherwise you appear to be posting baseless gossip and not credible facts.
In any event, on the SIW post, there's mention of the kashering that goes on at Ocean Spray after a batch of one of the non-certified drinks is processed.
Many people who do not use Triangle-K for everything will still buy Bird's Eye, Motts, and Ocean Spray with a Triangle-K Heksher.
It used to be, in the shtetl, that you brought your own soap to have the goyishe milkmaid wash her hands and the cow's udders, and, of course, you brought your own bucket. You stood right there watching the whole process, being your own mashgiach.
Nowadays, no one is 100% like that. For the small operations like Triangle-K, there are criticisms of not having enough coverage or of being not knowledgable enough. For large operations like the OU, there are criticisms of not knowing what all the employers and contractors are actually doing and of things falling through cracks. Any employee can go behind a mashgiach's back. Any manufacturer can slap on an unauthorized heksher. Any agency can have corruption.
I've heard it's because Triangle K is found on dairy bread, so that casts a shadow of doubt on any product they certify. Maybe hypocryphal, but I've heard it said by many people.
For this kind of question, you should always talk to someone in your area who works for a reliable hechsher such as OU, OK, or the Chicago Rabbinical Council or a Rav who has good contacts.
Rabbi Ralag is considered unrealiable in hashgocha circles. Some people in the business call him the mail order hashgocha service. apparently he is lax in areas that even the lax hashgochas have a problem with. I know as a fact someone who used to do the hashgocha on one of the motts apple juice plants, that he once saw something and called to say he was nixing the run, that he booted off the job right then and there.
Triangle K oversees juice that is made in the same plant, on the same equipment as clam juice. I have heard that one of the biggest problems is that R' Ralbag does not personally know all of the mashgichim and can't therefore really vouch for their credibility and reliability (like changing the rubber tubing between clam juice and apple juice). I have also heard that there is more political motivation than pure halacha in many of their overseeing decisions.
Perhaps the people behind the triangle K arent black hat enough for the frum world, thus they are shunned and not given a fair chance. Nobody has ever explained what it is that is wrong with the Triangle, they just say "its not kosher enough"
It seems to me that everyone that has posted disparagingly about Triangle-k has done so through "hearsay".None of these opinions would be good enough in a court of law and certainly not in a Bet Din. The issue with Triangle-k on meats is on Glatt.Most Ashkenazic Jews DID NOT eat GLATT as little as THIRTY-FIVE years ago! Most of the communities have switched to Glatt, but that does not mean that the custom of those that do eat not-Glatt Kosher is somehow to be labled (or should I say Libeled) as Trefah.Many seem to forget that even Rabbi Stern of Hebrew National was an O-U Rabbi. Hebrew National was under O-U for many years.Is it possible that every time that a company changes Hashgacha they must be attacked as non-kosher?What about the capitalist market in which a company will look for a service at a better rate?Is that not valid for the Kosher market world too? Does anyone know that Rabbi Ralbag of Triangle-K is an executive member of O-U?That he has "better" Smicha than most Rabbis anywhere in the world today? Does this even matter?Or is it better just to malign someone? And by the way I am Sefardi so I have not and can not eat non-Glatt Kosher.As a matter of fact our bare minimum is BET YOSEF certified.
I googled and found this blog after recently being told from a reliable source that triangle meat is not acceptable by any Torah standard. Apparently there is a threat of lawsuit if any of this information is published so, as was mentioned above, the best way to go for this kind of issue is to ask your Rav.
Even if I wrote here the things that I heard, they should not be relied on since I'm an anonymous poster who you probably found from your google search.
But, to any Jew who is concerned about adhering to Torah Law (which is every Jew, although in some cases it's not so obvious), please speak to a competent Halachic authority who is going to give a ruling based on both knowledge of what takes place inside ConAgra meat plant, and who has an understanding of basic laws of kashrut.
And if you're not sure, don't eat it. Some say the sin of Adam was when his wive gave him fruit, he didn't bother to ask whether it's from the Eizt HaDa'as since he was able to reasonable assume that it could have been from some other tree. Yet, we see how that was a serious mistake. So, it is absolutely imperative to consult with a Rav and have full clarification in these matters, especially when it is so sensitive.
I will note that my above comment was made on November 23, 2011.
If anything should change in the future whereby the operations change and the triangle-k actually becomes acceptable, then please disregard the comment.
No particular comment about the hashgacha's validity, except to say that the Triangle K is not Glatt, if you only eat Glatt that could be an issue
ReplyDeleteCanonist had an interview with Rabbi Ralbag a while ago, with some very informative comments
ReplyDeleteShmuel, do you have link by any chance?
ReplyDelete***I have less than zero knowledge of the topic in question***
ReplyDelete"The only thing people ever say is that its unreliable, but why? Does anyone actually know the reason?"
Mesorah??
>Mesorah??
ReplyDeletecute
http://www.canonist.com/?p=322
ReplyDeleteI don't know the history of Hebrew National SINCE the death of Tibor Stern some 10 years ago. When Tibor was the Mashgiach, pork had a better chance of being Kosher...
ReplyDeleteThe Triangle K is one those hechsherim that never makes it into the list of acccepted hechsherim. Don't know why.
For meat...yeah, well, perhaps one of the better explanations I've heard is the question of where they could get so much kosher meat?
ReplyDeleteFor other (non-meat) items, there are those who say that triangle k is acceptable.
Interestingly enough, I saw a number of (non-meat) products in Israel with the triangle K and the ishur of the rabbanut. I saw some those products in the homes of people whose kashrut I trust, so...who knows?
Complicated.
not okay. no one has budged on this one in all the years. it has been at least 20 years. now, i will eat canned vegies and cold snacks with this hechsher, but, frankly, most people don't touch it in any form.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, give Josh a call, he'll give you the story.
ReplyDeletei recommend this website: http://kosherquest.org/ for queries about Kashrut.
ReplyDeleteKosherQuest will tell you it not recommended, not why it isnt
ReplyDeleteAs a former mashgiach for a local vaad, the standard answer, indeed, is that it's not Glatt. I'd go to the party and simply eat something else or use the "I haven't been feeling to well and a hot dog would send me over the edge" excuse.
ReplyDeleteI would have no problem eating non glatt meat. I asked my Rav about the hecksher and he said not to eat anything processed with OIL with that hecksher. So there's the glatt issue, but there's also an issue with oil. I think we eat something with this hecksher that doesn't have oil, but I can't remember what---- (what hecksher do sunmaid raisins have? maybe that's it?)
ReplyDeleteIn my pre frum days I loved yoo hoo, dangit. :)
ReplyDeleteThe fruit juice is a problem because of a kulah the Ralbags use regarding grape juice. SOME Ravs say it's ok to drink 100% juice (I think Motts has some) but no mixed fruit drinks that may have grape juice.
here's the oil thing.
The Triangle K hasgacha's validity has been debated over the years, regarding Ralbag's acceptance of tank trucks transporting both kosher and non-kosher cooking oil. There was an opinion that Ralbag was overly lenient in how a tank truck had to be cleaned after transporting non-kosher foods.
I went to HIgh scool, and was classmates, with Rabbi Ralbag's (the rabbi who gives kashruth certification to triangle K)grandaughter, she herself wouldnt eat triangle K. I asked her why and then asked my dad why we dont eat it. My dad said that rabbi ralbag is a huge talmid chacham and knows a lot of torah, but he dosent know enough about whats going on in the world of trade and commerce, which is extremly crucial in the world of kashruth. For example the machines that triangle k uses to make their cranberry juice is used by traders of pork.
ReplyDeleteI hope this answers at least part of your question.
To add- they know what do in situations, but dont exactly know aBOUT SITUATIONS GOING ON IN THE WORLD ( in terms of trade, commerce, machinery, etc. and these are imp. things to know in the kashruth world) rabbi ralbag (ZL) himself was niftar, and I am not sure who took over, but regardless they are still using the same plants and machinery they used in the past, so nothing has changed.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, Hebrew National's meat operation has been moved twice that I know of, most recently from Indiana to Michigan, and the equipment is not all the same.
ReplyDeleteI know the rabbi who has directly overseen the plant kashrus at these two locations, and he's a serious, conscientious person.
It's still not glatt and doesn't claim to be, but the other concerns about their meat may be out of date---check with a posek of stature in the area of commercial kashrus.
Twins Mommy and Confused-You should be able to eat any of those products without a heksher anyways. See Rabbi Eidlitz's list of products for which a heksher is not needed at kosherquest.org.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why Triangle K is not accepted. I just hope it is for good reason because yashrut is as important as kashrut.
For example the machines that triangle k uses to make their cranberry juice is used by traders of pork.
ReplyDeleteI find this very hard to believe.
For what exactly do traders of pork use juice-making machinery?
You had better have a source for that, otherwise you appear to be posting baseless gossip and not credible facts.
In any event, on the SIW post, there's mention of the kashering that goes on at Ocean Spray after a batch of one of the non-certified drinks is processed.
Many people who do not use Triangle-K for everything will still buy Bird's Eye, Motts, and Ocean Spray with a Triangle-K Heksher.
It used to be, in the shtetl, that you brought your own soap to have the goyishe milkmaid wash her hands and the cow's udders, and, of course, you brought your own bucket. You stood right there watching the whole process, being your own mashgiach.
Nowadays, no one is 100% like that. For the small operations like Triangle-K, there are criticisms of not having enough coverage or of being not knowledgable enough. For large operations like the OU, there are criticisms of not knowing what all the employers and contractors are actually doing and of things falling through cracks. Any employee can go behind a mashgiach's back. Any manufacturer can slap on an unauthorized heksher. Any agency can have corruption.
I've heard it's because Triangle K is found on dairy bread, so that casts a shadow of doubt on any product they certify. Maybe hypocryphal, but I've heard it said by many people.
ReplyDeleteFor this kind of question, you should always talk to someone in your area who works for a reliable hechsher such as OU, OK, or the Chicago Rabbinical Council or a Rav who has good contacts.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Ralag is considered unrealiable in hashgocha circles. Some people in the business call him the mail order hashgocha service. apparently he is lax in areas that even the lax hashgochas have a problem with. I know as a fact someone who used to do the hashgocha on one of the motts apple juice plants, that he once saw something and called to say he was nixing the run, that he booted off the job right then and there.
ReplyDeleteTriangle K oversees juice that is made in the same plant, on the same equipment as clam juice. I have heard that one of the biggest problems is that R' Ralbag does not personally know all of the mashgichim and can't therefore really vouch for their credibility and reliability (like changing the rubber tubing between clam juice and apple juice). I have also heard that there is more political motivation than pure halacha in many of their overseeing decisions.
ReplyDeleteI was always told in High school, "Anything that would be kosher without the triangle-K is probably ok to eat."
ReplyDeleteThe only item that fit that category was seltzer.
Perhaps the people behind the triangle K arent black hat enough for the frum world, thus they are shunned and not given a fair chance. Nobody has ever explained what it is that is wrong with the Triangle, they just say "its not kosher enough"
ReplyDeleteplease!
It seems to me that everyone that has posted disparagingly about Triangle-k has done so through "hearsay".None of these opinions would be good enough in a court of law and certainly not in a Bet Din.
ReplyDeleteThe issue with Triangle-k
on meats is on Glatt.Most Ashkenazic Jews DID NOT eat GLATT as little as THIRTY-FIVE years ago!
Most of the communities have switched to Glatt, but that does not mean that the custom of those that do eat not-Glatt Kosher is somehow to be labled (or should I say Libeled) as Trefah.Many seem to forget that even Rabbi Stern of Hebrew National was an O-U Rabbi. Hebrew National was under O-U for many years.Is it possible that every time that a company changes Hashgacha they must be attacked as non-kosher?What about the capitalist market in which a company will look for a service at a better rate?Is that not valid for the Kosher market world too?
Does anyone know that Rabbi Ralbag of Triangle-K is an executive member of O-U?That he has "better" Smicha than most Rabbis anywhere in the world today? Does this even matter?Or is it better just to malign someone?
And by the way I am Sefardi so I have not and can not eat non-Glatt Kosher.As a matter of fact our bare minimum is BET YOSEF certified.
Hewbrew National was officially treif before Triangle-K, and did not carry ANY certification (let alone OU).
ReplyDeleteI googled and found this blog after recently being told from a reliable source that triangle meat is not acceptable by any Torah standard. Apparently there is a threat of lawsuit if any of this information is published so, as was mentioned above, the best way to go for this kind of issue is to ask your Rav.
ReplyDeleteEven if I wrote here the things that I heard, they should not be relied on since I'm an anonymous poster who you probably found from your google search.
But, to any Jew who is concerned about adhering to Torah Law (which is every Jew, although in some cases it's not so obvious), please speak to a competent Halachic authority who is going to give a ruling based on both knowledge of what takes place inside ConAgra meat plant, and who has an understanding of basic laws of kashrut.
And if you're not sure, don't eat it. Some say the sin of Adam was when his wive gave him fruit, he didn't bother to ask whether it's from the Eizt HaDa'as since he was able to reasonable assume that it could have been from some other tree. Yet, we see how that was a serious mistake. So, it is absolutely imperative to consult with a Rav and have full clarification in these matters, especially when it is so sensitive.
I will note that my above comment was made on November 23, 2011.
ReplyDeleteIf anything should change in the future whereby the operations change and the triangle-k actually becomes acceptable, then please disregard the comment.
And always ask your Rav.