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Wednesday, July 18, 2007

Naivety Seen

Attending a frum school from nursery through college has its benefits. Frum colleges are known to be easier and more of a joke, and you don't have to worry about taking off for yom tovim. Your classmates are all frum girls (or guys), and you don't have to worry about the environment being unsuitable for a bas yisroel (or ben torah) or getting yourself into a compromising situation. Sure, in high school you only get half a day of general studies, but I haven't found my general studies education to be lacking in most areas, and compared to most "in town" high schools I think I've actually received a better general studies education.

This summer, after 3 day schools, 1 frum high school, 1 seminary, 2 frum colleges and 117 credits I found myself in a secular school for the first time. The subjects? Art History I and Art History II, two courses required for my degree through a frum college, but not offered there for obvious reasons.

One of the main subjects of art, especially during the Renaissance is religion. The religion of choice being Christianity.

Of course, growing up in the frum school system we are not taught about dinosaurs or theories of evolution. Certain chapters in Psychology and Biology are skipped, and we don't learn about the "other religions". I do remember learning about Isalm, but not much about Christianity. You can imagine how confused I was sitting in class listening to the teacher's explanations about "Yushka", Mary, another Mary (?!), Madonna, and John the Baptist in about 100 different paintings. The Last Supper had something to do with.... Easter was it? Wasn't it before the crucification?? Why are there two babies and who is John? I had no clue what was flying, a basic background in Christianity is pretty much a necessity for most of the course. And oh yes, of course blaming Eve for eating the apple is sexist - that must be what the "author of the Bible" intended. (Don't get me started on the apple.)

While most yeshivos and seminaries probably don't approve of college, the reality is that most students looking for pursue a professional career will attend secular colleges. We don't believe that we came from Monkeys and we don't learn about Christianity in school, but maybe a brief "for Dummies" course should be given by a trusted Rav in a torahdik manner to prepare us before entering such an environment.

What about when we are approached by classmates, teachers, or even missionaries? We should have enough knowledge to be able to discuss Judaism vs. Christianity and disprove them with confidence.

My first course this summer was taught by a German Anti-Semite who gave me trouble the minute she figured out I was a Jew. She'd get into religious discussions during class, and ask provocative questions such as "When was the Bible put together?" (What do you mean put together? G-d wrote the bible....), or she would put down the "Hebrews" and occasionally mumble about "some custom or another of the Hebrews". In her class I actually felt like "the Jew" and not just another student.

Antisemitism is not something that I've been confronted with often, especially in a school setting. It's hard to sit and take the abuse quietly and not mouth off.

You can dis frum schools and their "fake degrees" all you want, but sometimes it's nice to fit in and not worry about controversial topics.

And hey, where else can you earn 60 credits in one semester?

30 comments:

  1. You've got a good point there. There aren't any frum colleges here so I went to a secular university. And after being at a frum school all my life (and then sem in Israel) to be in Art History at University is quite a change, a contrast. Definitely eye opening. However they were understanding when I couldn't take the exam because of Chagim!

    Being the only frum Jew in my course at university I always copped all the questions (the non-frum guy sorta passed it over to me) which was really quite awkward. It'd be good if the frum schools (high schools) taught students how to deal with such questions.

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  2. While Frum schools do have their benefits, I think you are correct, in that at least a brief history and overview of other cultures and beliefs should be taught. There is no reason why certain topics, like evolution and other religions should be skipped. As Jews, we should constantly be striving for truth, and how can you find truth without looking at other viewpoints. And besides, as we know there are different "frum" viewpoints when it comes to evolution. Not every Gadol thinks it never happened.

    The sad part is that we are taught to deny or criticize other views without really knowing much about them. This is like the average Sean Hannity or Mark Levine listener who only listens to ABC, is only bombarded with Conservative propanganda, gets his news from Fox News - in his eyes Republicans can do no wrong and all Democrats are idiots and Pinko Commies.

    Children are smart, and when they see that there is a fear of answering or discussing "other" topics, they will start to question. Why is my Rebbi or teacher afraid to answer my questions? Why cant I learn about someone else's religion? Why do yeshivos skip over stories like Dovid and Batsheva? Are we supposed to believe that nothing bad or questionable happened in our history?

    The only way to find truth is by looking at the whole picture not by being brainwashed and indoctrinated into what you believe.

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  3. "And hey, where else can you earn 60 credits in one semester?"

    According to recent reports that would qualify as the Touro "part-time" program***rimshot!!!***

    --for all those who want more information on a given topic there is this wonderful, albeit under-used, resource that has it available free of charge...it's called a library.

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  4. Right on G! Why send your kids to school when you can just leave them at the library.

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  5. G- the point is that we shouldn't be getting our information from the wrong sources. Many a jew have gotten in deep where they shouldn't have even from simply reading Christian (Buddhist or any other religion) materials. How do you think Missionaries work? Opening up "Christianity for Dummies" might not be the best way to go.

    And like Sarah said “It'd be good if the frum schools (high schools) taught students how to deal with such questions.”

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  6. We don't believe that we came from Monkeys

    That is not true of all Frum people I know. I know more than one that have no problem accepting that we all come from monkeys.

    Many a jew have gotten in deep where they shouldn't have even from simply reading Christian (Buddhist or any other religion) materials. How do you think Missionaries work?

    Missionaries work by playing upon questions and insecurities. I have often questioned the value of not interacting with others because of the potential for awkward situations.

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  7. "Right on G! Why send your kids to school when you can just leave them at the library."

    This happens to be more truth than fiction. Schooling, at the level we are talking about, has more to do with instruction then with the actual information being provided (ever seen Good Will Hunting?). The largest benefit is the social learning that goes on within the hallowed halls.

    “It'd be good if the frum schools (high schools) taught students how to deal with such questions.”

    Very true, I should have been clearer in separating this point from the general idea of finding out about things left out of the general curriculum.
    However, "we shouldn't be getting our information from the wrong sources" is no reason to be afraid to pick up a book on a given topic. What you find coming from missionaries is not what is on tap at the local public library, it has been created by them for their own use, and if you are worried about a skewed view the best way around that is to read (the horror!:) more than one book on said topic. Finally, hard as this may be to accept, in this area I can think of no greater "wrong sources" then teachers in frum schools, "agenda" does not begin to describe what would be advanced in such a class (although ignorance might be, and that is probably the real answer to this whole thing).

    --"Opening up "Christianity for Dummies" might not be the best way to go."--> Your right, I suggest a REAL BOOK.

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  8. We don't believe that we came from Monkeys and we don't learn about Christianity in school, but maybe a brief "for Dummies" course should be given by a trusted Rav in a torahdik manner to prepare us before entering such an environment.

    What Jack said about the monkeys.

    I would NOT want a regular Rav giving the course. I'd much prefer having someone who actually understands and knows the science AND Torah aspects doing it. There actually are people trying to develop such curricula now, but I can't say more about that. :P

    What about when we are approached by classmates, teachers, or even missionaries? We should have enough knowledge to be able to discuss Judaism vs. Christianity and disprove them with confidence.

    Amen. I don't know about disproving, but at least enough to have a worthwhile discussion. Missionaries I wouldn't waste my time with, because they're going to be super-slanted anyway.

    In her class I actually felt like "the Jew" and not just another student.

    That's just wrong, though I don't know if complaining would do much.

    You can dis frum schools and their "fake degrees" all you want

    Oh, the irony... :P

    Gabagoo - ABC is RW?! HAHAHAHA.

    G - Where does someone even start in the library? This is something that really *should* be taught in high schools... and not in a crappy way like a lot of the other stuff.

    However, "we shouldn't be getting our information from the wrong sources" is no reason to be afraid to pick up a book on a given topic.

    Yes and no. Generally, I'd agree, but a person who has no clue where to look would end up spending their whole day on (say) XGH. That's not a good place if you're trying to find information, though it sometimes has some good stuff.

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  9. "Many a jew have gotten in deep where they shouldn't have even from simply reading Christian (Buddhist or any other religion) materials. How do you think Missionaries work?"

    So its better to be "frum" and ignorant than risk learning new things? Maybe we should all sit and shuckle and eat herring - afterall may would consider this person more frum than the one who questions and studies 'foreign elements.'

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  10. Or, if your major is in something like Computer Science, like mine was, you will probably not have to put up with a lot of these issues either. (And my university gave the entire student body off on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.)

    I personally do not think that missionizing is a problem for a person who was brought up frum... I've never encountered it on campus and I don't think my friends ever did.
    If you need information for a "just in case" situation, I would suggest reading essays posted on Jews for Judaism or Messiahtruth.com.

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  11. So its better to be "frum" and ignorant than risk learning new things? Maybe we should all sit and shuckle and eat herring - afterall may would consider this person more frum than the one who questions and studies 'foreign elements.'

    Clearly that's misunderstanding the point, as the post is saying the exact opposite of that.

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  12. Your right, was just skimming.
    My bad.

    But I still stand firmly behind my post on ABC listeners.

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  13. Thanks.

    As for ABC... their own political director was upset that there was a lot of liberal voices in his news room when I heard him speak a few months ago. (He's neither liberal or conservative.) He noted that in the news room, there should not be a balance, as people suggested, but neither. Interesting guy.

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  14. a liberal in the newsroom!
    just you wait till the great one, mark levine gets his hands on him!

    btw, ezzie, your a great american.

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  15. I really don't think you understood anything I wrote. Ah well. Off topic anyway.

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  16. There is no 'disproving Christianity' just like there is no 'proving God'. It can't be done.
    I'm sorry to all those who think that Torah in front of 2 million, no additional animals or fish with split hooves and no cud, or scales and no fins, etc....is not proof. All we have is faith - I'm getting lunch.

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  17. I would NOT want a regular Rav giving the course. I'd much prefer having someone who actually understands and knows the science AND Torah aspects doing it.

    EXACTLY!

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  18. "I'd agree, but a person who has no clue where to look would end up spending their whole day on (say) XGH"

    That is why I specifically mentioned a library and not the internet; anybody can post something online but it is significantly harder to get something published and even more to have it earn space on a shelf.

    "Where does someone even start in the library?"

    We need to be specific about the topic here. As I said, if the problem is being able to refute other people then, in fact, a class would be prefered. However, if all one is after is a better understanding of certain other religions or other religious beliefs, then the best place to start would be the front desk of your local public library.

    "I'd much prefer having someone who actually understands and knows the science AND Torah aspects doing it.
    EXACTLY!"

    Fair enough, you might try to find recorded classes from Aish/Discovery that touch on these topics...or pick up a banned book or two (the footnotes/bibliography are some of the best places to find sources of info).

    --at the end of the day almost any information that you want can be obtained in some way, it is just a matter of time and effort. That is not to say that it should be this way, but it is the reality and it should not be seen as a case of "well nobody told me and how else was I supposed to know".

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  19. That is why I specifically mentioned a library and not the internet; anybody can post something online but it is significantly harder to get something published and even more to have it earn space on a shelf.

    I'm not so sure that's true, though generally I'd guess you have better odds.

    We need to be specific about the topic here. As I said, if the problem is being able to refute other people then, in fact, a class would be prefered. However, if all one is after is a better understanding of certain other religions or other religious beliefs, then the best place to start would be the front desk of your local public library.

    I think it's somewhere in between. A basic understanding of all of those so a) we're not clueless and b) so that we can answer questions that are posed, challenges made.

    Fair enough, you might try to find recorded classes from Aish/Discovery that touch on these topics...

    Eh.

    or pick up a banned book or two (the footnotes/bibliography are some of the best places to find sources of info)

    Better.

    That is not to say that it should be this way, but it is the reality and it should not be seen as a case of "well nobody told me and how else was I supposed to know".

    I don't think that's the point here. It's more of "nobody told me and now I'm lost - that's bad. It shouldn't be this way."

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  20. With all due respect to the original poster:

    "well nobody told me and how else was I supposed to know".

    vs.

    "nobody told me and now I'm lost - that's bad. It shouldn't be this way."

    --Sounds the same to me.

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  21. My dad has smicha in shaas and posekim and a PHD in bio- physical chemistry (don't ask me what that is). He has been a scholar- in-residence in 100's of places over the years, on the topic of science and Torah. Unfortunately there are not many out there like him, because the (boys) yeshiva system today stifles any learning that would lead you to think and thus allow you to achieve a PHD. My dad was in Chaim Berlin when Rav Hutner (ZTL) was the Rosh H'yeshivah. He told all the boys that it is their cheeuv to go out, go to college and make a parnassa (there were a handful that He hand picked to sit and learn, telling them that they had the minds to do so, and He would set up a yisachor- zevulan partnership for them, and these people today are yeluim). But I digrss, the boys had art, music and gym too. Today that is chastised and looked down upon and therefore the vicious cycle continues,schools don't have it in their cirriculem- does not allow student to think beyond a certain scope- cant expand their knowledge- they cant learn the science and torah- cant teach it- more ignorant students- and the cycle continues!

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  22. "With all due respect to the original poster:
    "well nobody told me and how else was I supposed to know".
    vs.
    "nobody told me and now I'm lost - that's bad. It shouldn't be this way."
    --Sounds the same to me."


    you're right, i'm just a silly bais yaakov girl too lazy to look these things up.

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  23. Hey, no fighting, people! :)

    G - I disagree. (And clearly, seeing the offense taken... I seem to be right.)

    "well nobody told me and how else was I supposed to know".

    vs.

    "nobody told me and now I'm lost - that's bad. It shouldn't be this way."


    The former comment implies a whiny, not going to try and do anything about it attitude - just wanting to complain. (And even then - hey, this is blogging! :P )

    The latter - which is how I read the post - says "this is the problem I ran into, and it's one I shouldn't have come up against. Here's an idea." (And then it went back to talking about the nice parts of the schools just criticized.)

    I think those are very different.

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  24. The latter - which is how I read the post - says "this is the problem I ran into, and it's one I shouldn't have come up against. Here's an idea."

    Ezzie is correct in interpreting the message I meant to convey.

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  25. For the record I am fully aware that this is where I should shut up. With that beig said, let's see how much more trouble I can get into. When we last left our hero...

    "you're right, i'm just a silly bais yaakov girl too lazy to look these things up."

    Did/Have/Will you?

    --and I never said anything about silly.

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  26. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  27. Sarcasm. Something you should recognize.

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  28. Yet again, I find myself thanking Hashem with all my heart that I went to the schools that I did. We did have classes that taught us the Torah perspective on a lot of these subjects--how to interact with the world, basic information about the tactics of missionaries and how they use Tanach to their advantage (especially when we were learning Yishayahu), all the stuff you're lamenting you never knew. Also, I did a lot of reading on my own, so I picked up a lot of basic information that has helped me along.

    It really is important to know this sort of information; and it's important that it be taught well. I really consider myself fortunate that my education provided me with these valuable tools...but it shouldn't be such an exception.

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  29. nice post!

    but im pretty sure that it was 12th grade where we discussed all the other religions business... and also when was it that we went to the smasons house and rabbi explained the whole thing to us and answered any questions we had...? did u come to that or was that 12th grade also?

    hehehehe see its not always so good to do the whole early admissions to college thing--- u miss out on important things in highschool! hehehe nah im just jealous that ur done with college already

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