Don’t make sweeping generalizations, “Frum people don’t do these things,” or “only gentiles or non-frum people do.” That might carry the day now, but sadly, no community is without its bad apples. Your message to your child will be demolished and your credibility diminished when he/she discovers that we are not completely immune to poor and immoral behavior, and that there are many, morally committed people, outside our community.There are some other good messages in there as well - check it out. Interestingly, I've often noticed that those who knock non-Jews the most tend to spend the least time around them as a basis for their statements. Meanwhile, those who work with them and especially those who know stories about what goes on in the Jewish community are far less morally superior. This is not to say that the Jewish community doesn't have incredible strengths (and R' Horowitz notes this as well), but there's definitely no reason to knock non-Jews.
Thursday, March 13, 2008
What Do You Expect From A Goy?
Ever heard the line above, or similar? I know I have many times throughout my life, and I'm sure most others have as well. When I was younger, it merely bothered me; now, it makes me wince. It is for this reason I was very happy to see one of the points R' Horowitz makes in his latest piece, discussing how one can discuss the Spitzer situation with their children:
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I'm with you. Since I've been in situations lately when I've been exposed to non-Jews more, I've had a new perspective on them...but I see it's one that is at odds with most of the people I interact with. I think they think I'm some flaming liberal to even entertain the notion that there are some decent people out there...and *gasp* there are actually things they do that we can learn from (lack of materialism and living within their means is at the top of that list)!
ReplyDeleteJust today I was thinking about the wisdom of Rabbi Horowitz. If only more people would listen, and internalize, his words.
Ever ask a frum person what they think goes in in Public schools?
ReplyDeleteUgh, I'm with you - the post title is one of my major pet peeves. Kind of hard to look at someone the same way again after they say something like that.
ReplyDeleteDag, good point. The public schools I worked at were so well-run. People are often surprised to hear how much I enjoyed teaching in them.
... besides for which, Spitzer is a Jew. So wouldn't be knocking actual non-Jews here.
ReplyDeleteI agree. However, as someone who spends more time with non-jews than jews, I find the major differences to be in the rather "small" things. Most non-jews are not part of a prostitution ring. And, sadly, there probably are some frum jews who are. Most are not.
ReplyDeleteThe language that I hear around me while I am with non-jews is very different than the language I am used to hearing in yeshiva.
Also, the topics of discussion also seem to veer off from what most frum jews would deem appropriate.
Good lovin'
ReplyDeleteThe language that I hear around me while I am with non-jews is very different than the language I am used to hearing in yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the topics of discussion also seem to veer off from what most frum jews would deem appropriate.
Depends what yeshiva... i.e. on the individuals involved, and the same in terms of topics among non-Jews. I know non-Jews who are appalled when they hear people swear or discuss certain subjects; I know all too many frum Jews/yeshiva people who have no problem saying absolutely gross things. I haven't found much of a difference.
Being a religious Jew does not give one the moral superiority that some claim. There are many decent non-Jews and non-religious Jews out there and there are some very disgusting people out there,too.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Horowitz's piece is excellent, as usual.
Dag, excellent point. When I was growing up I had friends who attended public school and my friends at my BY couldn't believe that public schools could actually produce intelligent, moral graduates.
Your message to your child will be demolished and your credibility diminished when he/she discovers that we are not completely immune to poor and immoral behavior, and that there are many, morally committed people, outside our community.
ReplyDeleteThis should apply within the various groups of Klal as well. Have you really listened to the loshon used when one group in Klal talks about another group?
So here is the bottom line:
ReplyDelete"I haven't found much of a difference."
It all comes down to whether or not you believe the bell curve for jews looks different than the curve for non-jews when it comes to things.
I think it does.
Now, does that allow for the demeaning of others...no it does not.
***battening down the hatches***
ReplyDeleteG - I actually agree with that, you can come out now. :)
ReplyDeleteIn that case, in my opinion, the point of emphasis needs to be shifted.
ReplyDeleteI am not saying to paint a picture wherein the jewish community is perfect but I also think it counter productive to play up the whole "we can be just as bad as they are" angle so who are we to talk.
Damn straight we can talk(!), just do so in the correct manner.
The lesson should be not to speak badly of others and not to knock someone else down to build yourself up. V'ze hu.
I think we're disagreeing on nuance only. There are two halves:
ReplyDelete1) That non-Jews can be just as good.
2) That Jews can be just as bad.
If the emphasis is only on #1, the lesson is not learned - yes, non-Jews can be just as good, but that bad stuff... that's only among non-Jews. Jews would *never* do *that*.
#2 needs to be learned as well - that Jews *can* be just as bad, and there are even some who are. Overall, do we still believe that we do a better job? Yes. The next paragraph in R' H's article (which is what I was referring to in the last line) discusses exactly this.
I was talking more in response to the comments (here and there), not so much the actual piece.
ReplyDeletefor ther ecord: sometimes, nuance can make a big difference.
Of course. Point was that we're not disagreeing, just have slightly different focuses... and apparently, even there we don't really. It only seemed as such.
ReplyDeleteAlso should note that even when some nuances are different, should the underlying result be the same, those nuances can be ignored... and that applies in so many other places as well.
ReplyDeleteWe are all human and have temptations with different things. What matters is what we do with those temptations, and how strong or weak we are in controlling it. Plus, the person should keep in mind that certain things are just very bad to do. Once the person loses sight of that, there's no stoping them
ReplyDelete