The first is that until recently, we had major talmidei chachamim well versed in the intellectual challenges of the day who devoted much time and energy battling the mockers and skeptics on their own turf. Think R Saadia Gaon, the Rambam, R Yehuda HaLevi hundreds of years ago. Think R Samson Raphael Hirsch, R Dovid Tzvi Hoffman, R Yitzchok Isaac Halevi, and the Malbim in more recent times, battling Higher Criticism or the platform of Reform, or the extremes of Jewish Wissenschaft. These figures studied and mastered the challenges from the inside, offering real counterpunches, rather than glib bromides. They did not, and could not, “prove” their case, but they could show that alternatives existed that were as attractive as any other. We do not have such figures today.Even better:
The second factor is the appearance of wrong answers. Sending serious seekers to vaunted “experts” is worse than allowing them to struggle on their own. Once a person meets the acclaimed “answer people,” the people everyone around him tells him or her are the greatest and deepest minds and finds their answers inadequate, he no longer has any reason to wait. He has gone to the top, and knows he cannot live with their approach – often with good reason.
The world of kiruv is populated with many wonderful people. Some of them are deep thinkers, and have taken the time to read and understand the genuine questions and doubts. Others, however, have swallowed the Kool-Aid. They are so convinced that answers are there, they imagine that they have found them, despite the fact that they are remarkably similar to the orthoprax subjects of the article, who are described as ignorant of both Torah and the secular challenges. Often, they are hopelessly ignorant of the literature and of the complexity of the challenges. (The embrace of the Bible Codes, the often shallow way in which the serious body of evolutionary evidence is dealt with, the use of oddball minority approaches to science, and the complete unawareness of issues relating to biblical studies are examples that come to mind. A good way to tell if you are dealing with one of them is if he tells you he has spoken to “the biggest scientists” – whatever that means.)
It is vital to understand that there are many others whose questions are sincere, and whose situation is worsened by putting them in contact with purveyors of superficial and simplistic “answers.” There are far more of them than we think. [...] Rather than to meet well-meaning people who provide simplistic, facile and unsatisfactory approaches, it would be better to have them meet frum people of deep intellectual ability who also struggle, without detracting from their shemiras hamitzvos. There are many, many of them. They will provide some answers, but more importantly, will be models of how to live with questions.
Amen. For a bit of a Pesach vort, one aspect of the Hagaddah I've always found intriguing is that while we ask four questions at the beginning of the seder, and are encouraged to continue asking throughout, the discussion we have doesn't exactly answer those specific questions - and certainly not in the most straightforward fashion. There's a much higher level of complexity involved, and while certainly there are explanations given, there's always the aspect of a person needing to understand and determine for themselves what exactly is meant by it all and what to take away from the night.
We here at SerandEz would like to wish a wonderful Chag Sameach to all our family, friends, supporters, and readers. May we all merit to have our questions answered, and may we celebrate next year in Yerushalayim Habenuya.
Rather than to meet well-meaning people who provide simplistic, facile and unsatisfactory approaches, it would be better to have them meet frum people of deep intellectual ability who also struggle, without detracting from their shemiras hamitzvos.
ReplyDeleteThat's pretty good advice, but if you cared more about the person than about the religion, you'd have them meet with people of deep intellectual ability who went OTD as well. You're so worried about manipulating people into staying that you shirk your responsibility of helping them as human beings first.
In other words, turning questions that have straightforward answers into a "struggle" because you'd rather stay OJ rather than face what you know is the truth isn't for everybody.
ReplyDelete"Because some people have enough intellectual integrity to live by what their minds tell them, even if it is inconvenient."
ReplyDeleteWow, by 100 miles the best sentence I ever read on cross-currents.
Sorry for 4 comments in a row, but I want to spell out my point. You have to be willing to let people go for their own good. You can't just constantly try to manipulate the outcome. You have to give them the real options and you have to let them choose.
ReplyDeleteJewish Atheist, I've been following the comments on the two posts pertaining to the Ami article. You have made some good points, gave me some food for thought. But in debating,you fail to acknowledge what Judaism means to people who are genuinely religious. You take YOUR approach to religion and then project it....without accepting that religious people take a completely different approach. The result is a breakdown in communication.
ReplyDeleteFor example, you previously belittled the tremendous impact that a spouse becoming orthoprax (or OTD) would have on a marriage. You failed to acknowledge the countless ways in which it would put a strain on the marriage, to the point that it may legitimately become unsalvagable. You do this because you don't appreciate what religion means to a religious person, not necessarily because you have a greater value of the commitment of marriage.
And again now, you're suggesting that people be encouraged to "find themselves" and do whatever feels right to them. OK, that's your opinion. I understand the idea. But at least realize that you have this opinion since you don't think much of religion to begin with. To the religious person,however, it would be considered cruel to not try to prevent a person from going down the "wrong" path in be life...to not encourage a person to fulfill their purpose on this earth. This belief needs to at least be acknowledged when debating the belief.
You failed to acknowledge the countless ways in which it would put a strain on the marriage, to the point that it may legitimately become unsalvagable.
ReplyDeletePeople have a remarkable ability to compartmentalize, especially about a spouse with whom they're compatible and whom they love. And this is a good thing. If successful marriages fell apart over differences in hashkafa that occurred after marriage (and Orthopraxy is merely an extreme example), we'd have a lot more divorce than we already do.
To the religious person,however, it would be considered cruel to not try to prevent a person from going down the "wrong" path in be life...to not encourage a person to fulfill their purpose on this earth.
ReplyDeleteIn that case, we're all cruel, unless we're all engaged in kiruv all the time.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteJewish Atheist, I've been following the comments on the two posts pertaining to the Ami article. You have made some good points, gave me some food for thought.
Thanks! :-)
For example, you previously belittled the tremendous impact that a spouse becoming orthoprax (or OTD) would have on a marriage. You failed to acknowledge the countless ways in which it would put a strain on the marriage, to the point that it may legitimately become unsalvagable.
Hmm, that wasn't my intention. Perhaps I was unclear. I am sure it would put a strain on many marriages and perhaps some would not be salvageable. What I was arguing (or trying to argue) was that you shouldn't divorce a spouse "just" because he/she goes OTD (or becomes more religious or becomes a Hare Krishna, etc.) Obviously, if it leads to an untenable situation, then you do what's best. But first you try to stay together.
You do this because you don't appreciate what religion means to a religious person, not necessarily because you have a greater value of the commitment of marriage.
I used to be a religious person, I know how it goes. I'm not saying I have a greater value of the commitment of marriage necessarily, either. I'm just saying that the commitment of marriage should be more important than just divorcing because your spouse stops believing.
And again now, you're suggesting that people be encouraged to "find themselves" and do whatever feels right to them. OK, that's your opinion. I understand the idea. But at least realize that you have this opinion since you don't think much of religion to begin with.
First, by saying "whatever feels right" it seems like you are belittling an honest search for truth and one's own path. Second, while I agree that my low opinion of religion plays a factor in my opinions about this, I think I always felt this way. Perhaps that's why I was one of those people who "have enough intellectual integrity to live by what their minds tell them, even if it is inconvenient." Third, the fact that (fundamentalist) religious people often act this way is in fact one of the reasons I have a low opinion of religion in the first place. It too often values keeping people in the fold at whatever cost over doing what's right for the particular individual (or for many individuals or even communities.)
To the religious person,however, it would be considered cruel to not try to prevent a person from going down the "wrong" path in be life...to not encourage a person to fulfill their purpose on this earth. This belief needs to at least be acknowledged when debating the belief.
I mean I get that you're doing what you think is right. To a large extent, I try to keep that in mind so I don't get angry at religious people for doing things I believe are wrong. But OJs go way beyond "encouraging" people with questions (or answers!) to stay OJ -- they manipulate, they beg, they use emotional blackmail, and they try to keep them away from OTDers who might be able to offer constructive help.
Look, it's hard for me to respond, because your opinion involves the need for religious people to hold views that are anti-religious. There is a difference between encouraging OJ people to be more "progressive" in ways that are not anti-religious versus telling them to be like conservative and reform Jews. I think I'll just bow out of the conversation ;)
ReplyDeleteSarah, I'm not saying you should tell them to be like Conservative or Reform Jews, just to allow them to make their own decisions without engaging in manipulation, emotional blackmail, or social shunning.
ReplyDeleteI know what you're saying. But you have that opinion because you believe in religious pluralism while Orthodox Jews believe in absolute truths. Therefore, they will not demonstrate acceptance of their loved ones choosing a "wrong" path.
ReplyDeleteIn your language, telling a parent that their "at-risk" child should speak to an OTD person for guidance or help is like telling a parent whose child is dabbling in drugs that their child should speak with drug dealers. I don't mean to use an offensive analogy, I'm just trying to use an extreme example that you'll definitely relate to.
And for the record, most frum Jews do have the option of deciding to leave Judaism. People do it all the time. And their frum family and community also has the right to not accept it as a valid form of life. If you deny this, then you are forcing your atheist/pluralistic views down an orthodox person's throat.
If it matters, I do not agree with many of the ways in which parents react to their children going OTD. I don't believe in lots of parenting methods. Parents do stupid things all the time, religious or not, this is nothing new. But what you consider to be social shunning might be someone else saying "No, I will not accept" (For example, not attending the wedding of an intermarriage).
At the end of the day, the question is: is this world really a pluralistic world, where most opinions are acceptable. Or are there some basic absolute truths? And if there are absolute truths, what are they? That's the core question regarding all these debates. Granted, you've come to your own conclusions, but other people have other conclusions. And that's why we all live our lives differently.
I'd also like to point out that there's a difference between "not showing acceptance" versus purposely being cruel. Sometimes, "not showing acceptance" can be hurtful, but the goal is not be cruel.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there are many different sects in the orthodox community who each react somewhat differently, so I don't know what you have in mind exactly.
Lastly, the ways in which some parents react is not necessarily based on true Torah values...it could easily be their misguided views/ego that's at play, and not true Judaism. Like I said before, parents do stupid things all the time...just because they're frum doesn't mean that their methods are "torahdik".
Therefore, it's hard to even know to what extent we disagree, lol.
I know what you're saying. But you have that opinion because you believe in religious pluralism while Orthodox Jews believe in absolute truths.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I get that, and that's one of the reasons I think fundamentalist religion is so harmful. When I wrote "if you cared more about the person than about the religion, ou'd have them meet with people of deep intellectual ability who went OTD as well" I knew that the "if" is a counterfactual, or at least that the OJ parent would never accept that the two could be at odds, even though they plainly are in the case of many or most OTDers.
I think that's a damn shame, and I think Orthodox Jews should be ashamed to believe such things. Obviously, though it's not really possible to both believe and to be ashamed of that belief.
In your language, telling a parent that their "at-risk" child should speak to an OTD person for guidance or help is like telling a parent whose child is dabbling in drugs that their child should speak with drug dealers. I don't mean to use an offensive analogy, I'm just trying to use an extreme example that you'll definitely relate to.
The whole problem is that OJs act as if this is a good analogy when in fact it is not. Assuming we're talking about drugs like heroin or meth, the evidence shows that it's clearly harmful to use them frequently. There is no evidence that it's harmful for a person to go OTD. It's just religious dogma.
Basically I'm criticizing OJ for the way people treat those who are going off and you're saying it's not they're fault, they have different beliefs. Well, if they're adults and are capable of making informed decisions, then it is their fault.
Having an ancient belief system doesn't absolve you of the responsibility for your actions. If I can make my own analogy, you wouldn't absolve a modern-day follower of Ba'al for murdering his child, would you? What's the difference here?
>There is no evidence that it's harmful for a person to go OTD.
ReplyDeleteSigh. It's not about evidence. It's not about the physical harm of meth vs the physical harm of being OTD. It's about values. That is what Sarah means. Why on earth, would person X who believes with all their might in Y, send their child to someone, that is vehemently against Y existing in the first place?
I mean, its almost (almost) like me being an American and my son hating the American system and wanting communism and sending him to some communism committee in town. Now, if he WANTS to be a communist, that is his business, but for me, or any parent to ACTIVELY send them in that direction is asking the absurd.
Hmm. I guess I hadn't really thought of going OTD as a violation of values, per se. I mean if my son wanted to join the KKK, I'd probably oppose that pretty strongly. I just don't see religion the same way.
ReplyDeleteReligion is something you believe and something you do, but values are kind of orthogonal, at least to me. I mean, I'm 100% OTD, but I'd say I still share my parents' core values. Maybe they'd say otherwise?
E.g. being honest and ethical is a value, but is follow the mitzvot a value? I don't know.
I guess it's different for you.
Ok. I will amend what I say. When i say values, I not only mean ethical values, but values in terms of the place of God in this world. What role does the Jewish religion have in this world. Is a secular society better than a religious society? Etc Etc. If my son goes OTD, there is a large statement he is making about the place of God and religion in this world. That does not make him a bad person (not at all), but why should I actively support that statement he is making?
ReplyDeleteBecause he's your son? I mean, shouldn't I support my son if he decides to become Orthodox?
ReplyDeleteMany Orthodox parents choose between their OTD child and their religious beliefs, and they choose their beliefs. Making a child not welcome in your home is about as extreme a statement as you can make. (People are more likely to do this when their child is intermarried or outwardly homosexual). That's one reason why I think Orthodox Judaism is not just a harmless set of ancient practices.
ReplyDeleteI don't have time to respond, will be back after Shabbas, but who's Ba'al? Who/What story are you referring to?
ReplyDelete>Because he's your son? I mean, shouldn't I support my son if he decides to become Orthodox?
ReplyDeletepardon?
>That's one reason why I think Orthodox Judaism is not just a harmless set of ancient practices.
ReplyDeleteThis is what I don't get. If I talk in generalities about any other groups of people and how a little introspection would help these groups (ie, muslims, african americans, feminists etc etc) I would be called a bigot or sexist or whatever. For some reason, orthodoxy gets a pass. It's allowed to be prodded ad nauseum , as if people like Tesya don't realize that orthodoxy is anything but black and white.
My mistake, I meant Moloch.
ReplyDeleteHH: What didn't you understand? I'm asking if you think I should support my son if he chooses to become frum.
as if people like Tesya don't realize that orthodoxy is anything but black and white.
ReplyDeleteHH, you do realize that Orthodox considers some things nonnegotiable, right? Like males having homosexual intercourse? That's not black & white?
Have a nice Shabbos.
>What didn't you understand? I'm asking if you think I should support my son if he chooses to become frum.
ReplyDeleteIf you are totally against religion, me asking you to actively support your son becoming frum is absurd. It doesn't mean you don't love him or support his needs or don't respect him.
>HH, you do realize that Orthodox considers some things nonnegotiable, right? Like males having homosexual intercourse? That's not black & white?
ReplyDeleteof course some things are non negotiable. Every organization in order to thrive will have certain boundaries. So what? The question is how they are treated, which is not a question of orthodoxy but of personal values. Besides...you were talking about OTD in general.
Every organization in order to thrive will have certain boundaries.
ReplyDeleteTell me again how tolerating male homosexuality between consenting adults will cause Jewish society not to thrive? Plenty of children will continue to be born. Unlike rape & murder, no one is being hurt.
Your intolerance of male homosexual acts has nothing to do with societal bliss; it has everything to do with the belief in divine command. Why not just say so?
In terms of how they are treated - would you celebrate with your child at his or her homosexual marriage (or intermarriage)? How would that child feel compared to a heterosexual sibling who marries a Jew? That's the kind of treatment that can only be explained by adherence to black and white religious dogma.
If that were me, I would feel slighted by my parents. If that were my child, my child would be slighted by me, no matter how nicely I tried to explain it. (Full disclosure: none of my children is of marriageable age).
I admit, if you believe it's divine, you have no choice but to throw your child (or at least his emotions) under the bus.
It's black and white.
Oh please Tesya, spare me. Yes there is dogma that influences my perspective on the act (and actually, there is also some none dogmatic as well), but none of regarding gay marriage. For some reason, you have been taught that unless you go hand in hand with ALL decision your child makes, you are somehow throwing them under the bus. If YOU were that child and YOU felted slighted, I can only assume you to be a selfish child. Why? Because you ought to know the boundaries of your parents. You ought to know how far they can bend before they break (e.g. Fiddler on the roof). If you truly know your parents, you should know they still love you but cannot be with you in this aspect of your life.
ReplyDelete>How would that child feel compared to a heterosexual sibling who marries a Jew?
How would they feel????? Well, if its a mature adult. I would hope they are mature enough to come up to me and tell me why they are doing what ever it is they are doing. To be rock solid in their choice and at least have the balls not to have THEIR feelings hurt regarding something they 100% KNOW I cannot be part of, but at the same time, know that a parents love is always there. It's called lying in your bed and sleeping in it.
>Tell me again how tolerating male homosexuality between consenting adults will cause Jewish society not to thrive?
It was a general observation. Homosexuality has nothing to do with thriving of course. But if you pick on one aspect of Judaism that you find offensive you can start picking at anything you find offensive. Different people have different things that offend them and there you have boundaries crumbling drip by drip.