This paragraph brings up a lot of questions for me:
The preservation of such an intense, close-knit community involves the suppression of a certain measure of personal freedom. And indeed, the Haredi is not free to think, to doubt, and to act as a secular person does. He is committed to his community's tradition and to the authority of his community's leaders, and lives in a social and cultural ghetto. No doubt, this is a heavy price to pay - for many, it is simply too heavy. But to the extent that the Haredi community demands the forfeiture of the individual's personal liberties for the sake of the whole, the individual is rewarded with a life imbued with meaning, and an almost unparalleled feeling of belonging and of continuity, and of certainly as to his place in this transient world and beyond - indeed in all of Jewish eternity.
What I found interesting about Rose's description was that he seems to view the Haredim as a collectivist culture. The way in which he describes this life sounds very much like many Asian or Africa cultures in which the good of the whole community comes before the good of the individual. The reason I find this interesting is because I don't think that many Orthodox Jews would consider themselves part of a collectivist culture, would appreciate being described in such a manner. And I'm not sure why that is.
A question it brings up is whether the price that people pay to be part of such a collectivist culture, for their individuality, is too much. Obviously, what is being offered is a lot - community, tradition, safety. And that is plenty for many. But what about those who fall through the cracks, who it isn't enough for? Is what it offers worth the fallout of the few? It's an age-old question, whether the price paid for a few souls who can't handle it is worth those who can, whether it's better to get rid of a "bad seed" from a group rather than trying to have the group rub off on the "bad seed" in a good way.
The other question it brings up is whether someone who didn't grow up in such an environment could possibly subscribe to it and give up their personal freedoms in order to be taken care of in such a way (obviously, I'm thinking about baalei teshuvah here). I think it depends on how a person is raised - if they are taught, as many are in American society, to value individualism and indepedence, I think it would be extremely difficult for them to ever completely accept this attitude. But I think there are people, even who grow up non-religious, who are taught tradition and obeying those in command (the traditional Southern attitude actually comes to mind here). However, I know for myself, that I couldn't handle subscribing to such a view. It's just not part of who I am. And if that was the only option in the world of Orthodox Judaism, I'm not sure I could be an Orthodox Jew, to be perfectly honest.
Based on the description in a Wikipedia article, collectivist is a very good word for the Chareidi world. Some people might not acknowledge that it's true, but only because they don't realize what they're doing.
ReplyDeleteI recently talked to a friend whose daughter was starting first grade. The uniform had two shirts -- a polo and a button down -- and my friend preferred the polo but wouldn't dress her daughter in it because "everyone else" wore the button down.
That's a big part of collectivism. Doing what everyone else does in order not to stand out.
The uniform example is a very bad one because conforming to fashion can be found in non-collectivist societies.
ReplyDeleteA better example would be staying in unfulfilling marriages, which is common in the Orthodox world.
There is a really good discussion at Jewish Connection- JewishConnection.com about the difference between the different Jewish sects. Some people agree with Orthodox beliefs and some people are opposed to it.
ReplyDeleteI myself, am reform because I think that Judiasm can conform to modern times....I think it has, since it has survived for so long!
But I think as long as a choice is offered to the people raised in the sect as to whether they want to continue in the same way they grew up, then there is a good chance for an identity to be obtained.
Rabbi Friefeld speaks a lot about a persons individuality. He was a very Chareidi man, however he believed that Jews should recognize each of their own individual skills and feelings and especially potential.
ReplyDeleteI think the issue is that Ahron Rose is portraying chareidi communities quite inaccurately. Even in totally chassidishe neighborhoods, people are usually given support for doing their own thing. This may not be on the level of which more modern communities are accustomed to, but there certainly is an individuality that exists. People with musical or artistic talents are encouraged to develop their skills. Indeed, members of the communities that don't have the strength to sit and learn all day are pushed to succeed in all types of businesses. These chassidim go out and excel in all different types of commerce and are viewed by their community as individuals who have achieved in the world beyond their community.
Whatever liberties have been sacrificed by these chareidim are not necessarily for the benefit demanded by the community, but rather they have been sacrificed because of an intense dedication to their faith and laws. The sacrifice of liberties should be looked at no differently than the rest of the orthodox community, who choose to make sacrifices also because of a dedication to Judaism itself.
Frankly, I think the statement seems to be coming from someone who doesn't have the greatest insight into the communities he describes.
Anon, the Torah from G-d is perfect and doesn't need to comform. For more info. read here
ReplyDeleteMordy S: Aharon Rose grew up in the Israeli charedi world. You're talking about America
ReplyDeleteDebbie -
ReplyDeleteWhile clothing can be an indicator of collectivist culture, anon correctly pointed out that clothing conformity is quite commonly found in individualistic cultures as well - just think about suits in business - while that can't really considered collectivist, there is a strong pressure to conform in dress there.
Anon -
I am not certain that staying in bad marriages would be an example either - however the fact that many people are pressured into marriages due to political or familial pressure would be more of an example - these marriages are seen as being set up for the good of the families and communities involved.
MordyS -
I am sure there are some who do support individualistic tendencies, but I think, especially in Israel where Aharon Rose is from, most charedi communities do NOT go out of their way to encourage people to follow their artistic or creative leanings, nor do they "push" people to go into business when they are not good at learning. Many are looked down upon for choosing these paths (just look at the shidduch system where a "learning" boy is much more highly prized than a "working" one).
well israel's a different story!
ReplyDeleteI'm going to disagree a bit [comments, not post]. My cousins are completely Charedi, and they *do* support *some* individualistic tendencies. One cousin is an incredible artist - I don't know if Shoshana remembers, but there was a painting of Kever Rachel up on the wall of our apartment. My cousin made that when she was 11 or 12 and sent it to us as a wedding present. She takes special art classes, though they can't really afford them. In another family, the oldest son has an astonishing voice, and was taking lessons on how to compose music (and real music, not just "shiny-shoe" garbage). He was 14, and he had already written and recorded a couple songs on his (fancy) keyboard. His brothers are also very musically talented - I wonder if they'll pick up other instruments in the future. Our other cousins have a son that is an incredible bongo drummer... at 10 years old. He doesn't get as much encouragement at home, but only because it's so loud. :) He, too, is constantly encouraged to play, and they were trying to find a way to get him onto a drum set [which they can't afford] to learn how to really play.
ReplyDeleteGranted, these are more "normal" individual exploits, but I didn't see my cousins forced into too much of a mold while I was there. They were as individualistic as my Dati Leumi cousins seemed to be, with somewhat different values. Are they the exceptions? Maybe. But I think the Charedi community is slowly learning that a purely insular, collective way of life simply can't work in these times the same way it has in the past. There will be too many 'bad seeds', too many that don't fit into the mold, and are exposed to life outside of it. We'll see, I guess.
Great obervations. I discuss elements of these Jewish communal dynamics while you can find the costs associated with the lifestyle addressed by SephardiLady at Orthonomics.blogspot.com.
ReplyDeleteI know you know this Ezzie...it's more for your readership ;-)
You could be completely, halachically Torah true without subscribing to Charedi Society. However, if you wish to join that society, you do have to give up just as with any social contract. (Think Rousseau)
ReplyDeleteI liked the article. The author stressed that Charedi society can survive economic stress because it is a society that basically functions on values such as chesed and bitachon that are valued way beyond their role in the secular society. While one can argue that some charedi communities are economically stressed, the key is that many view chesed and bitachon as real factors in their lives, as opposed to keys to understanding a Chasidishe story or Mussar vort.
ReplyDeleteEzzie,
ReplyDeleteThoughtful post. I value diversity and individuality, and try to maintain it in the Charedie world. I think that we need more of it today...I guess, in some ways, you can say I'm a non-conformist, or an out of the box thinker.