Via Wolf, who has a good post on the subject, I read these letters to Rebbetzin Jungreis by two girls whose parents work - and how this has been a dark mark on them from schooling to shidduchim. They're almost too unreal:
In the Bais Yaakov high school I attended, extensive time was devoted to praising the merits of the kollel lifestyle. Numerous hashkafah/machshavah classes were dedicated to this cause. I can say without any exaggerations that not once during my entire high school career did any teacher say that a working lifestyle was also acceptable. In fact, teachers were exceedingly negative toward the possibility of living a life where work and Torah were combined. I always felt that a working lifestyle would best suit me, but early on, I learned that sharing my personal feelings would only place me in the bad graces of my teachers and principals.~~~~~
Once, my principal accused me of doing some inappropriate things that I would never dream of doing. When I told her that I was raised differently and that my Yiddishkeit meant too much to me to ever participate in the activities she accused me of, she said that she would expect such behavior from me because I was "not a good girl" as I unfortunately "come from a working family." Even more hurtful was when I was told to "not lower myself to my father's level" by marrying a working guy even if he would devote time to Torah. This general theme unfortunately continued throughout seminary and into shidduchim. Once, when my mother spoke to one shadchan about me, he asked her, "What kind of a girl is your daughter that she does not want to marry a learning boy?"
As much as I had heard about these interviews, I was not prepared for the hurt that was inflicted upon me. The person who interviewed me questioned me about my parents' professions and their heavy work schedules, and then went on to make some very unkind, critical remarks which I prefer not to repeat because, a) it's too hurtful and b) it would be disrespectful to my parents. I left the interview shattered and broke down in tears. I later found out that I was not the only one who had been reduced to tears – other girls were equally mistreated and put to shame.These stories aren't just talking about single instances. The first one is detailing an entire culture, the second the entrance exam to an apparently popular seminary. Between this pressure from one side, and the worry of being considered "subpar" on the other, it is no wonder that so many young men and women feel pressured into a specific lifestyle at the degradation of any other.
The second letter writer also makes a side point that is important:
There can be no justification for the "ona’as devarim - hurtful words" that were hurled at me. This is not the way to interview girls for a year of study in Yerushalayim. I also find it curious that those same people, who are so quick to criticize, have no problem approaching working parents for fund-raising purposes.When G posted "YoU Are Subpar II...", we received a lot of criticism questioning our decision to publish it. A lot of it was very reasonable; a lot of it was absolutely off the wall. As noted then, one of the reasons it was felt it was important to post was that
I think it is important for people to see the opinions that those who have an influence on their children have. I don't think most people are aware of the type of thinking that is given over in places in EY, and just how pressured it is. ...The truth is it is not just in Israel that this happens; it starts earlier on, from hints during elementary school to strong pushes if not outright statements during high school, as noted by the first letter writer. It is important that parents be more aware of the education that their children are getting, and the messages they're being taught - and it is important that people who are giving money know where that money is going, and what messages it is being used for. If donors knew that the school they were giving money to would then turn around and criticize their lifestyle, they might be a little more hesitant in how they give out their tzedaka.
A few people have noted that it's one thing for anyone to choose on an individual level how they want to live, who they want to follow. But when it becomes a large group, it becomes a cause for serious concern.
Over Shavuos, Pobody's Nerfect and I attended a community panel discussion on The High Cost of Jewish Education. The discussion was very good, and one of the suggestions included a central communal fund that would then disperse funds to individual schools. While this idea is basically a good one, one drawback that could exist in theory is a lack of direct accountability: When a school does things that are "beyond the pale" to their donors, their donors simply don't support the school anymore. An umbrella fund would allow schools to receive money even if donors would rather not be supporting that specific school. Direct donations allow a much greater give-and-take between parents and donors and the schools they are supporting and sending their children to.
One of the issues that they did not cover in the panel was why there are so many people in need of tuition breaks and the like. While they touched on the legitimate needs of many (single-parent homes, parent who lost a job, etc.), they didn't discuss either the poor management of money by so many due to lack of knowledge or caring, nor the incredible drain the increasingly large kollel world has had on the Orthodox world economically. As this cycle continues - increased shunning of the working world leading to an economic drain that is no longer able to sustain schooling - it is important that the money that is there be given to schools that will help build for the future of the Jewish community, not those that drain our resources.
Wow. That's insane.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I rarely comment on these posts as I am not Orthodox and really am not entitled to an opinion on Orthodox lifestyle. HOWEVER this was so compelling, I feel the need to comment. OY ARE YOU KIDDING ME? The excerpts you posted nauseate me.
ReplyDeleteYour daughters are blessed beyond belief to have you and Serach, healthy normal adults, as parents. They will grow up secure in the knowledge that they come from a menschlich family, and they will know how to create their own healthy, normal, menschlich families. More power to the two of you.
I just need to quickly comment on the umbrella fund that was mentioned and how much I am opposed to it and all charities that operate in a similar fashion. A charity serves a communal function and thus needs to earn its funding legitimately and on its own. I never realized that yeshivas were such strong proponents for communism but Ive heard of other non-profits that get dispersals in that fashion and it boils my blood to think that my money may be funding an organization that I'd love to see bankrupted.
ReplyDeleteIf the tzedaka is legitimate and performing a function that is wanted and respected by the community, then I think (hope) that the "market" will reward it.
Erachet - Yeah.
ReplyDeleteEK - Thank you VERY much, we really appreciate that.
Xvi - I took it very out of context; it was meant to be more of a central store for money collected from the community as a sort of "tax" that would then be used for education as needed by the different organizations. My guess is actual donors would still be *primarily* giving directly to the respective schools of their choice. It wasn't nearly as bad or as crazy of an idea as it came across in the post or even in this comment.
Nevertheless, I agree strongly with the idea that the market will reward good schools that do the right things.
The more I read things like what these girls wrote, the more it occurs to me that this brand of frum Judaism only bears slight resemblance to my own. Yikes.
ReplyDeleteWow. This was a great post and it came at a great time.
ReplyDeleteI much appreciate it.
About the content: Whoa. I've been following Rebetzin Jungries's column in the Jewish Press these past few weeks, and while reading it, all I could say was, "My gosh. How dumb can people get?" You hear and you hear about these stories.
Now, I went to a Bais Yaakov school as well- *the* Bais Yaakov, actually. I'm very grateful for all that they have done for me, and for giving me a Jewish education which bh I enjoyed very much.
BUT- I must mention, that although I acknowledge that *no society* is perfect, nor is any *school* perfect, nor any set of parents nor any human being in general, while in high school, time and time again I was aggravated by the teacher's comments.
This is a bit out of character for me, since I am not one to criticize, and really try as hard as I can to avoid it, but while we're on the topic...
I used to get very upset at the way the teachers were very uni-lateral about lifestyles. There was only one way. Now, bh, I grew up in a family where it was SPECIFICALLY EMPHASIZED that tehre are twelve shevatim in klal Yisrael, which means that there are *at least* twelve ways to serve Hashem, and everyone comes from somewhere else and they're perfectly ok the way they are. Now, I will admit that personally, in our case, it- er- led to some identity confusion, which my siblings and I (or some of us) are as of yet resolving, but in any case, that's beside the point.
The point is that while in high school, it disturbed me immensely that they treated anyone who was "more modern" /"less frum" with extreme disrespect and disregard, painting entire communities in black terms without any thought about the wonderful, serious, Torah minded people who are within them. I was unlike the first letter writer in that I was very vocal against this attitude. I rarely got my teachers concession, though. When I write my books you'll see more detai, beh.
It's very sad. And a big problem.
ReplyDeleteSimilar to RaggedyMom's comment, I can see this sort of problem (or similar) in certain parts of my community too.
This sounds too far-fetched to be true, actually.
ReplyDeleteBut assuming it is PARTIALLY true, the rudeness shown is not worthy of anyone who claims to value Torah as God's word.
I am SO glad not to live in the intensity of the New York area. I would be considered a complete outcast. Confession: when not Shabbos or at a shiur, I am much more comfortable in JEANS. I'm afraid my personal choice could limit my daughters' shittuch choices. But then again...I wouldn't want those types of judgmental, narrow-minded people who'd CARE to marry my daughter.
Thanks, Ezzie, for raising this issue.
The issue of the kollel culture being an economic drag on the community is something I have thought a lot about. I know some people about my parents' ages who learn, and their parents, who worked, supported them. They use a combination of their wives working and the money they inherited from their parents to support their kids' learning. But who will support their kids' kids' learning? The system as it exists in the US, without direct funding by the government, does not seem sustainable.
ReplyDeleteAmazing post.
ReplyDeleteI don't think most people are aware of the type of thinking that is given over in places in EY, and just how pressured it is. ...
A sidepoint: I wonder about these parents who send one kid to Toras Moshe and the other to KBY; one kid to Ohr David and one kid to Yesodei HaTorah. I mean, do they realize how changed their kids are gonna come home? Do they realize the completely different hashkafot preached at these institutions?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletesorry - deleted my previous comment, b/c I wanted to fix something.
ReplyDeleteBaruch - maybe davka the parents are exactly right - their different sons are suited towards different hashkafas. If you have a child who is suited towards being a businessman, a lawyer, a doctor, etc, then it's a shame to not use the talent Hashem gave them by sending them to a yeshiva where they will be shunned for having a desire to do something other than learn full-time. Much better to send them to a yeshiva which supports that kind of lifestyle - instead of turning them off to learning, (which happens when certain things are shoved in an impressionable young man's face) it gives them the backbone to continue learning throughout their lives.
Just like you wouldn't send all of your children to medical school, regardless of their personalities, you need to choose a yeshiva that is going to give them the right backing and help to succeed on THEIR path.
There's a big problem with assuming that ideally every man's path should be identical.
In Tanach times, there were shepherds and vineyard people and orchard owners and wheat-growers. There weren't ONLY Torah scholars.
RM - I think that's one of the scariest things. We're either headed for a large split within Orthodoxy, or something major has to happen.
ReplyDeleteM - Thank you; it's especially interesting to see things from the POV of someone in the Chassidish world, though it's been clear your views are not typical of that world... and we await the book. :)
~Sarah~ - I think the problems are often worse in larger cities, but it's interesting to see that they are worldwide.
NL - Amen, and well put.
Katrina - No, it does not seem sustainable; the latest calls sometimes ask grandparents to help "chip in" for their grandchild's tuition. It is NOT sustainable.
Baruch - Thank you.
I happen to disagree about sending to the different institutions; families that are able to do so are those that not only recognize the differences among their own children (chanoch l'na'ar al pi darko), but are also often the ones who have given their children the strongest overall backgrounds in how they view other hashkafos and one another. Brothers in ToMo and KBY are more likely to respect one another and their respective hashkafos than not.
Trilcat - Agreed.
I love that attitude of ridiculing the very constituency that bankrolls their lifestyle! Where else do you see that (outside of government welfare)? Where else would such a system continue to function?
ReplyDeleteI stopped blogging because of intense pressure from people who did not like the fact that there are people who criticize the system….
Ezzie and Trilcat --
ReplyDeleteI see I wasn't clear enough.
I do not disagree that some parents can and should send their kids to different yeshivot based on their character, etc. That's why I said "I wonder" as opposed to "I worry." While those parents are right to do what they do, there are other parents who send their kids to different yeshivot based on faulty information about the yeshivas. For example, I was talking to somebody about how she was sending her son to ToMo and all she seemed to know about the place was that it 1) was shtark and 2)had a good deal of connections to The Rav. Now, due to the short timespan of the conversation, I could be dan lekav schus that I very possibly misread her (and I wouldn't be surprised if I did). But at the same time, it seems there are some parents who would really be just that misinformed about the yeshivot their kids go to.
DAG - Why stop because of that, though?
ReplyDeleteBaruch - But at the same time, it seems there are some parents who would really be just that misinformed about the yeshivot their kids go to.
Very true, unfortunately. To some extent, they trust and rely on their children's high school Rabbeim and teachers to guide them to what's best for them, as they are more familiar with the schools - not realizing that the teachers may not have the parents or their children's best interests in mind, but rather a certain worldview*. Others rely on their children themselves, who seem to "know" (based on little more than name and perception, often) what's a "good" school and what's not.
* As a note, one of the things I especially liked about my own HS was the advice of the Rabbeim to students to go to places that were better for them rather than a certain "type" of yeshiva following graduation. (Of course they factored in things that they felt were important, but they were open about what those factors were.)
I went to a Bais Yaakov (albeit "out-of-town") and my friends applied to seminaries across the entire spectrum and I NEVER heard anything like this. OK, it wasn't exactly last year, but still...
ReplyDeleteRM - I think that's one of the scariest things. We're either headed for a large split within Orthodoxy, or something major has to happen.
Ezzie, totally agreed.
I love that attitude of ridiculing the very constituency that bankrolls their lifestyle! Where else do you see that (outside of government welfare)? Where else would such a system continue to function?
ReplyDeleteI went to a yeshiva, where the Rosh Yeshiva's hashkafa can be summarized in once sentance- "Stay in my Yeshiva for the rest of your life; if you work for a living, you're going to hell."
The RY would constantly belittle "baal habatim". When pointed out that it was those evil baal habatim that financed his yeshiva, he said that God gave them money so that they could support yeshivas.
No hakoras hatov at all.
My comment from The Wolf's post:
ReplyDeleteI sincerely hope that there is a special ring in Hell for people who make it a point to pit children against their parents.
More and more I see that what once was done out of feelings of Shem Shomayim are now done out self perpetuation, self preservation and self legitimization.
I find myself not knowing whether to feel sad or angry.
---------------------
I decided to wait until noon today and see if Ezzie would put up a post on this so that I would be prevented from putting up one of my own.
Why wait you ask? Well, let's just say that this post was done in a much more calm and thoughtful manner than anything that would have flowed out of MY keyboard on this topic.
That is really what this issue desreves...although it does leave me feeling somewhat less fulfilled (i'm sure there is a lesson in there for me somehwere but damned if i can find it:)
As for all the people out there who questioned why I posted the "teachings" of Rav Balanson and felt that it was disrespectful, not necessary or that he was so over the top as to be irrelevant...PLEASE OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
Ezzie, we're only "heading for a split in orthodox Judaism?" We're not heading anywhere--we have arrived. The Hareidim in E"Y may be more public in their attempts to eradicate every way of thinking but theirs, but don't kid yourself that the "hareidim" here are any less "zealots" or any less vindictive towards those they openly despise. Those who are being dumped on have yet to fight back in an organized manner, nor have they played their "trump" card--the weapon of weapons--MONEY. Too many of us having pity on members of the hareidi element and opening our wallets. I know one person who continues to give to institutions that wouldn't allow him or his children to cross their threshholds so that he can show that he is doing the right thing, he considers all of Klal as belonging there. And I would imagine those institutions are laughing all the way to the bank.
ReplyDeleteWe're not heading anywhere--we have arrived.
ReplyDeleteI concur.
For the time being this is mostly in NY and it's surrounding areas but, as with all of that fair cities trappings, it is only a matter of time before this show is airing at a community near you.
Get you tickets now...it's supposed to be a hell of a show.
ProfK-
ReplyDeletenote the cancelled Big Event.
SaraK - I have a feeling that teachers like this often feel they can "get away" with stronger comments in certain crowds, and therefore they do. As "RW" as your BY was, it's still a different set of parents and girls than places in NYC.
ReplyDeleteLWY - Some similar experiences (previously discussed). Yup.
G - I was actually wondering if you were going to write something. :)
ProfK, G, M - I hear you. I meant a more obvious day-to-day one, where the two sides essentially will simply not have anything to do with one another. I know we're almost there, but I don't know that we are. I think we're all talking about degrees of separation here, not disagreeing.
Ezzie;
ReplyDeleteOne thing I wonder about wuite often is why we never seem to hear our leaders debate issues directly and in a public manner.
In a comment on blogosphere some time back, I read how a woman wrote that she was waiting for the day there would be Chareidi TV. Now, I am not a big proponent on too many visual aids in our life because I believe it dulls our cognition and pro-active activity, but the thought planted a seed in my mind.
Then while reading your post about the debate between Leitch, Bissinger, and Matt, the idea came to me: Why in the world don't we have something like that for the great Rabbis of our generation?
Why can't there a platform where leaders of every community would get together and show the nation that they respect each other, each other's scholarship and achievements if they don't agree on hashkafic issues, and discuss the things which rip them apart? We have enough sinas chinam as it is. Has anyone ever thought about the fact that while, as Ezzie points out, there is still communication between the common people on all levels, there is no- at least, not any that the klal is aware of- communication or discussion between our leaders?
Doesn't anyone find that a bit... odd? This would seem to represent that we are not one family...
Methinks an oration like the one the- what was it- great and magnanimous G, did he call himself? :)- parodied a few posts ago would do the trick. You would think the tzaros we have these days would open our eyes...
Now THAT is an IDEA!!
ReplyDeleteEzz, b/c they wouldn’t leave me alone...they’d call and harass and bother...they wouldn’t stop. I called it quits when I ran a little test that proved a certain Rav's minions were tracking my posts on his behalf....
ReplyDeletewho is educating these "educators"? Sreiousely do people preaching this none-sense actually believe it in their hearts or are they worrying about impressions? I digress with an interesting story. I was in 8th grade in an yeshivah that used to cater to all "types", but once the principle died, the new administration did what they thought the deceased principle would have wanted done. So it became a yeshivish hashkafa with a variety of students.So it was 8th grde and we were discussing "kol eisha"- stupid me, opened my mouth and told me teacher that there is a sheetah by rav hirsh that for shevach (praise) to G-d, on may sing in front of a male. She told me the next day that she asked her (narow minded) husband and he said the sheetah did not exist. Subsequently, my dad produced for me a sheet of paper, which I, in turn ,handed over to my teacher, which explained where and by whom, the sheetah as explained, she never heard of it so it did not exist. Adamant, I kept pushing, and at PTA she told my mom, to her face, that she could not believe that my father would believe such a sheetah, because only an "apicores" would believe such a thingQ!
ReplyDeleteOMG, Serach, my salvation!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI am an incessant singer, who also has huge dreams of performing, and I was actually wondering about this issue--
I am glad there is that shitah.
Wow, Serach, you saved my life!!!
Now to inform the rest of klal Yisrael....
:)
Serach, Wow. I would love to slap that woman silly.
ReplyDeleteIf she'd said "well, in this school, we don't hold by that shita" then I could have dealt with it, but to call your father an apikores...
I just despise people who don't know their sources so they dismiss anything that they haven't specifically been told as apikorsus.
Most of these "educators" don't have more than a high school or seminary education . . . which often precludes their ability to actually TEACH, but that's another story.
ReplyDeleteAlso, teachers often think that their opinion on higher education (not just on what constitutes a good Jewish family structure) should supersede the parents' wishes, which also leads to a heck of a lot of issues.
WIth the help of Hashem, we will give somewhere in the area of 30K in Tzedakkah this year.
ReplyDeleteNot ONE RED CENT to the "TORAH TRUE" Yeshiva system.
There are any fine organizations such as Bikur Cholim, Tomche Shabbos, ECHO, etc that can use money to help the needy.
There are many fine Yeshivos that are serving the non-mainstream (ugh, hate that label) kids that need help.
Put your money there. That's where mine goes.
Someone please explain to me, where is the money SUPPOSED TO COME FROM? I mean, it is a mitzvah to have many children, (Gd willing), but how do you raise them? Gd provides? I am so confused. Please. What does this teach people? Get what you want and expect that it will be paid for?
ReplyDeleteDag - (shrug) I don't know that that's a reason to stop, but you know your situation best.
ReplyDeleteSerach - I feel like I've heard that story before! :P
Apple - Is that true? I know it's true for many, but is it that high?
Also, teachers often think that their opinion on higher education (not just on what constitutes a good Jewish family structure) should supersede the parents' wishes, which also leads to a heck of a lot of issues.
Agreed.
Anon - WIth the help of Hashem, we will give somewhere in the area of 30K in Tzedakkah this year.
Not ONE RED CENT to the "TORAH TRUE" Yeshiva system.
There are any fine organizations such as Bikur Cholim, Tomche Shabbos, ECHO, etc that can use money to help the needy.
There are many fine Yeshivos that are serving the non-mainstream (ugh, hate that label) kids that need help.
Put your money there. That's where mine goes.
Excellent. That's how it needs to go.
Someone please explain to me, where is the money SUPPOSED TO COME FROM? I mean, it is a mitzvah to have many children, (Gd willing), but how do you raise them? Gd provides? I am so confused. Please. What does this teach people? Get what you want and expect that it will be paid for?
"God will provide" is always the answer they give. Sickening.
The ones who talk like the examples in your post? Generally, yeah. I've only encountered that kind of hyper-exclusionary attitude from people who don't have a college degree. Because the ones who do, or who are married to people who do, are often not *as* extreme.
ReplyDeleteHey, guys, whaddaya mean- He *will* provide.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe what I'm hearing- mamash apikorsus....