A recent letter to the Chareidi blog, Yeshiva World, puts this issue in stark relief. A father of two women, both teachers in Chareidi schools, bemoans their experiences in those institutions. One daughter was promised to be paid on a "per week basis" only to be told that there are only 4 weeks in every month. Essentially, she was shortchanged by a stingy Chareidi principal who believes that there are 48 weeks in the calendar year.The discussion at Yeshiva World is here, and many of the commenters are adding their own stories, although there are a handful who are decrying this public criticism of the schools. I do think there is a marked difference between these cases, which are essentially evil, and schools and yeshivos which simply cannot pay. I know of places where they try their hardest to pay on time, but for whatever reason at some time are not able to do so. [Note: I am not saying this is acceptable, merely noting it is on a different level.]
The other daughter was told that she would be paid for substitute teaching. When she approached the principal for payment, she was told that the private tutoring that she was conducting in the school (at the school's request, no less) used the school's utilities (electricity for the lights, apparently) and thereby offset the salary that she had been promised.
But what is most troubling in most of these cases is the lack of a written contract. I cannot understand why anyone would work without a contract, nor how any truly trustworthy institution would explain why they do not give out such contracts. The only reasons I can think of that a school would not have a contract for a teacher are because they are trying to avoid taxes or because they are not going to honor the contract (whether for legitimate reasons or not).
If you are going to be a teacher of any sort, make sure to have a written, signed contract on formal school stationary. Also, if you aren't asked to fill out either a W-2 [hopefully] or 1099 [hopefully not] form, find out why. Not paying taxes is stealing, no matter what Rav or Rebbetzin is helping to run the school. Asking for documentation is not showing a lack of trust but a sense of responsibility. I am also incredibly appalled at the games some places play to get increased government funding, moving kids into classes they are not a part of (particularly in relation to Special Education classrooms) to make it appear that they have more kids in certain classes, etc. I don't understand how the principals who are responsible for this can live with themselves knowing that they are lying, deceiving, and stealing. It's simply appalling.
Ugh.
ReplyDeleteI had an acquaintance with a similar story; at the end of the year, the school she had worked at was behind about six months' worth of payments. However, because it was a school that catered almost exclusively to children who come from homes that aren't as observant, and the school was, in her words, "poor," she refused to push for the payment. I think her motivation was commendable, but this sets a bad precedent.
"If you are going to be a teacher of any sort, make sure to have a written, signed contract on formal school stationary"
ReplyDeleteThe Chareidi schools and many that may be considered middle of the road Yeshivish do not usually do written contracts. You are asking a young, inexperienced, idealistic young lady to buck the system at the very start of her teaching career. It isn't a practical piece of advice for this pool of young women. This is a huge system-wide problem and the only advice for a new, young teacher is to ask the teachers in a school (network, make calls) if they get paid on time and if they don't, don't work there. Also, go as far away from the right as you can when you choose your school. The more open-minded the school--even in the Yeshiva world--the more fairly you will be paid. Many girls just go into teaching completely clueless and do little to no research about the schools to which they apply.
Also, obviously, this would not go over well in the very circles about which we are speaking but...young girls fresh out of seminary should value a good undergraduate (even graduate) degree in Education from a respected college. Whoever has been telling these girls that they don't need a degree or that they can get their degree online is doing them a great disservice. They will get paid better and have many more options within the Yeshiva system now and long-term if they pursue a degree from a reputable institution. Those who are stuck in the societal fear of co-ed schools and who cannot afford Touro, will forever be left to forage for low-paying jobs in nickel and dime Yeshivos competing with hundreds of others just like them. They will likely not get paid a decent wage or get paid on time until they marry. At this point, they will get paid a bit more and more often on time than before--although sometimes not--and will likely not have decent insurance or a proper maternity/disability leave.
ReplyDeleteSorry, one more thing. I was speaking recently to a Chareidi cousin, newly married, seeking a teaching position. She had no rhyme or reason to why she was applying to whichever schools she applied. She had no idea that with a decent degree she could be paid nicely and she could not believe what women with advanced degrees were getting in better Yeshivos. To her, teaching was teaching. She will continue to make poor choices because no one that she respects has ever told her these things. Oh, and she doesn't respect me too much so...
ReplyDeleteApple - It does, and it cycles all around: When people don't get paid, they can't pay others, who in turn can't pay others.
ReplyDeleteAnon Mom - You are asking a young, inexperienced, idealistic young lady to buck the system at the very start of her teaching career.
Yes. There's nowhere else to start. Hopefully parents of such girls will encourage them to do the same; hopefully seeing one friend do it will embolden others.
I've noticed that when it comes down to it, the girls often are wisely most interested in what schools make the most sense for them (logistically, financially, stress-wise) rather than just rushing to the right. They're smarter about where they choose to work to begin with; this is just another piece they should get on top of what they're already doing. I don't think that asking for a contract is really "bucking the system" in a way that they'll feel uncomfortable. Moreover, people generally aren't going to work for people whom they know and have a built-in fearful respect of and idea that they should "trust" them unquestionably. Asking strangers for contracts isn't nearly as big of a deal.
young girls fresh out of seminary should value a good undergraduate (even graduate) degree in Education from a respected college. Whoever has been telling these girls that they don't need a degree or that they can get their degree online is doing them a great disservice.
ReplyDeleteDefine respected college. Most girls do get a degree in education, if not a Master's, before beginning to teach even in those circles. [Note: My wife has done just fine with her Master's from Touro.]
She had no idea that with a decent degree she could be paid nicely and she could not believe what women with advanced degrees were getting in better Yeshivos. To her, teaching was teaching. She will continue to make poor choices because no one that she respects has ever told her these things.
ReplyDeleteSo she and whomever is guiding her are fools. She should research on her own, and anyone who cares about her that she might listen to should be telling her all this.
Ezzie, no offense, but you--like most professionals who are not in the teaching profession--have no idea what the dynamics actually are. When you are a teacher in the Yeshiva/day school system, the rules are completely different than in business or other professions. Teaching in a Frum school is Klal work with pay (hopefully). It isn't run like the businessworld and asking for business rules--which make perfect sense btw--is completely out in left field. Also, when you teach Limudei Kodesh in a Yeshiva, you are working not for a boss, but a Rabbi so and so who happens to be your boss. It's different. It most certainly is not impersonal. Completely different dynamics. You can't advise them if you keep looking at it through the lense of a business professional.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, most of the young women going into Yeshiva teaching are not going in with degrees from Touro or any other real college. Most of the young women are being sold a bill of goods about online degrees and mom and pop "degree programs" run by local Rabbis and Rebetzins out to make a buck. These seminary-like operations are cropping up in Monsey, Brooklyn, even beyond. They hire people like me (not me, of course) to come in and give these half-baked classes on teaching and someone stamps a degree for them at the end of a few months. Trust me, most of the girls back from Sem are not pursuing degrees at Touro or anywhere else, let alone a Masters. They are getting them from these ridiculous operations and online. And, in the meantime, those who are blindly going into these schools are getting taken advantage of left and right. Their advisors whom you call fools are their high school and sem teachers who are selling them down a river.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, do you realize that women take jobs in certain schools just because "they pay." Do you realize how many schools do not pay their teachers on time and how many of the young unmarried girls are working without pay for months at a time? If there wasn't a sea of them looking for jobs at all times, the schools wouldn't get away with it.
ReplyDeleteOh and telling them so they will listen is impossible. These girls only listen to their teachers, gurus, friends. They are following a holy path, you know. And Hashem will make sure it all works out, you know. And the schools will pay when they can, you know.
ReplyDeleteEzz, how man Shmuzin and discussions have you heard abut the aveira of Lfnai Ever and Rashi’s Pshat as to what that means?
ReplyDeleteI would like those Rebbeim who think it is ok not to pay on time to look at the VERY NEXT PASUK and see how Rashi explains Pshat (the first half of the Pasuk, not the 2nd half which they clam has more wiggle room. (Ill make it easy Vayikra 19:13) What is the Torah value there?
The other issue...and dirty little secret is that it is well known that Yeshivas do NOT treat their (non-rabbinic) employees well. Yes...there are exceptions, but most people I talk to who work in the community and are not Rebbeim have confirmed that fact. If I had a nickel for everytime I have heard people remark that reform and conservative schools and institutions treat people MUCH better than the Orthodox…I could retire now.
One of the saddest parts is the fact that the people I talk to are resigned to that fact. I can't tell you how man times people have told me that this is the way the system is...and we know that going in, etc.
I always respond that it may be the status quo, and they may have even know that going, but that doesnt change the fact that it is obscene and a Chilul Hashem of the HIGHEST order. It is unacceptable, it is Assur and it MUST stop.
Ezzie, no offense, but you--like most professionals who are not in the teaching profession--have no idea what the dynamics actually are.
ReplyDelete!??!
My wife is a teacher. My father-in-law is a teacher. My sister-in-law and sister are in administrative positions in schools.
It isn't run like the businessworld and asking for business rules--which make perfect sense btw--is completely out in left field.
Untrue. We've asked for everything in writing and gotten it.
Also, when you teach Limudei Kodesh in a Yeshiva, you are working not for a boss, but a Rabbi so and so who happens to be your boss. It's different. It most certainly is not impersonal. Completely different dynamics. You can't advise them if you keep looking at it through the lense of a business professional.
Not true before you accept the position - he is a prospective boss like any other. There's no reason a person shouldn't be asking for a contract in teaching any more than in business. It has nothing to do with impersonal or not or being a "business professional" or not; it has to do with common sense or not. If you're too uncomfortable to ask a prospective boss for a contract, you will be pushed around your whole career.
Ezzie, most of the young women going into Yeshiva teaching are not going in with degrees from Touro or any other real college.
I don't think that's true, though I honestly don't know the numbers. The ones who are getting the online or joke degrees sometimes go on to get genuine Master's; the rest, I don't know what to say. I agree that these are very problematic and that the seminaries that sell them on it and parents who pass on it are doing them a disservice.
Ezzie, do you realize that women take jobs in certain schools just because "they pay." Do you realize how many schools do not pay their teachers on time and how many of the young unmarried girls are working without pay for months at a time? If there wasn't a sea of them looking for jobs at all times, the schools wouldn't get away with it.
Agreed. And back to business terms, that's what is called an oversaturated market, and therefore a buyer's market. It's the same self-destructive vicious cycle.
Oh and telling them so they will listen is impossible. These girls only listen to their teachers, gurus, friends. They are following a holy path, you know. And Hashem will make sure it all works out, you know. And the schools will pay when they can, you know.
That's why it's important to break the common sense into the ones who have it, and hope it spreads to their friends who realize quickly that they're losing out.
Dag - I think many places treat the Rabbeim poorly as well, but okay.
ReplyDeleteOne of the saddest parts is the fact that the people I talk to are resigned to that fact. I can't tell you how man times people have told me that this is the way the system is...and we know that going in, etc.
Agreed. That's my point to anon mom, partially - it doesn't need to be this way. And the only way to stop it is to stand up and not accept it.
Basically agree with the rest.
Ezz...you may be right about the Rebbeim, but trust me, dift madraiga for non Rebeim
ReplyDeleteIn the real world, this would be a class action lawsuit waiting to happen.
ReplyDeleteI apologize if I got onto a rant. I am just frustrated with my profession lately and the lack of awareness by the Baal Habatim, the laypeople, whatever you want to call them who do not understand properly how the system works and how difficult it is to change this system. My experiences have been good and my compensation, I believe, is fair within Yeshiva/Day school parameters because I am savvy and have approached this as a career. I just know, though, that there is way too much garbage out there in our field. Dag is correct, btw, about his assertions in particular. But, I am not as angry about that as I am about other things. I recently spoke confidentially to a board member at our school about a serious issue that needed to be addressed by those with power outside the administration. The response was naive at best. The comments you make about my statement regarding principal as Rabbi and boss are naive because you don't realize how it works in many Yeshivos/day schools. You may have teachers in your family, but there are different subcultures within the day school system. Out of town is not the same as in NY. Chareidi is not the same as Modern Orthodox. Public School is most definately not the same as Yeshivos. Male teachers are not the same as female. Rebbes not the same as non-Rebbes. The list goes on and on. Again, I apologize for my tone. I just have no idea how to make the changes that will actually help the kids.
ReplyDelete"If you're too uncomfortable to ask a prospective boss for a contract, you will be pushed around your whole career."
ReplyDeleteIt is twofold:
a. they WILL get pushed around.
b. they can ask for a contract, but many schools just don't give them. Many. Even a MO school--well-regarded--that I used to work for did not give out contracts until June or thereabouts and that was even with fire and brimstone from the staff. Now, to be fair, most MO schools will furnish the contract on time and with respect, but the others? This just isn't done. So, when and if she asks and the answer is: we don't do that or we'll get it to sometime soon, what would you like her to do? Should she jump ship to a "better" school? You yourself said that she is choosing that school for a reason. She does have some criteria, doesn't she? Now, when she jumps ship, does she get first in line at the new place? Do they give her a contract? You know, when we interview for a teaching position, we are required to give a model lesson. I don't know of a school that would hire a young teacher cold without a model lesson. So, she goes through that plus an interview at a few schools and when they don't give her a contract, she opts for the one that does and that leaves the one MO or progressive Yeshivish school on the list. And how many girls are on line for that particular job? Again, this is a systemic problem that won't be solved with "awareness."
Ezzie,
ReplyDeleteThere is a vast difference between who is teaching in the more MO schools and who is teaching in the schools further to the right. The more MO the school, for secular studies at least, the more credentialed the teaching staff. You don't get to teach secular studies without a "real" college degree in these schools. In the schools more to the right, some of the older staff still teaching have those credentials; most of the younger ones do not. If you are lucky you are looking at someone who is at present a college student and teaching to make some money. Plenty of the teachers who are coming from the borderline programs that were mentioned in the comments. And then there was the biology teacher in my last high school who "majored" in biology in high school and that was her credential for teaching other high school girls. The key to teaching in the more right wing schools is do you fit their hashkafah, not do you have a college degree.
DAG - I hear ya.
ReplyDeleteN - Amen.
AnonMom - who do not understand properly how the system works and how difficult it is to change this system
I think that's precisely the point. They DO appreciate how hard it is to change the system (and have similar issues with the "systems" at their office, believe me), and they're saying "hello, this is what HAS to be done." When the attitude is "well, it's too hard and they won't do it", you've just allowed them all an out. As soon as individuals start facing up to it and demanding contracts, and even one school starts doing so, it places pressure on the others to do it too.
The comments you make about my statement regarding principal as Rabbi and boss are naive because you don't realize how it works in many Yeshivos/day schools. You may have teachers in your family, but there are different subcultures within the day school system. Out of town is not the same as in NY. Chareidi is not the same as Modern Orthodox. Public School is most definately not the same as Yeshivos. Male teachers are not the same as female. Rebbes not the same as non-Rebbes. The list goes on and on.
Of course, and I know people who run the gamut from MO to RW, both in town and out. I realize perfectly well how it (doesn't) work, and I'm noting where some of the changes need to start.
b. they can ask for a contract, but many schools just don't give them. Many. Even a MO school--well-regarded--that I used to work for did not give out contracts until June or thereabouts and that was even with fire and brimstone from the staff.
Agreed. And it's why more and more of these young teachers are starting to go to public schools - starting with the special ed teachers and OT/PT ones and spreading. They can't justify the difference in money to themselves, particularly when they aren't getting paid. But again - it's up to the teachers to stand up and demand payment, or (a) will always hold true, which is exactly my point.
These girls go on model lessons at a number of schools, get a few offers. Until they have a contract in hand from their top choice, they shouldn't say "no thanks" to the others.
ProfK - Completely separate subject.
Big sigh. The entire Chareidi system stinks. That's the truth. (Not the people, the system). The middle of the road MO is hopelessly drifting to the right off the edge into the Chareidi rapids and I am too old and too busy to think it will change. This money/contract issue is just part of the sickness that plagues Orthodoxy today. The lack of Yashrus, the complete misplacing of priorities, the decline of the Yeshivos...And I will stop commenting now. It doesn't help anything. I am just old, I guess, and I've seen too much.
ReplyDelete