A friend and I were discussing dating this weekend (what else is new) and we touched on the topic of dating for a "long" period of time (and yes, I know that "long" is a relative term - for my purposes, I will say that a "long" time to date someone is spending three months or upwards dating one person steadily). She posited that doing thorough research on the person eliminates the need to date for longer than, say, a month and a half at most, because if you do a lot of intensive research on the person and find out how they react/behave in different situations, you don't need to experience those situations with said person to see what they do.
On the other side of the coin, I posited that even good research can't really tell you what truly happens when the person encounters situation x, and as such, it's probably a better idea to date longer, so that you can see them in many different situations and experiences and see first-hand how they behave, and make a more informed decision about whether or not you want this person to be your spouse.
I guess a lot of it comes down to trust - how much do you trust the references to give you accurate information that would cancel out the need to experience situations with the person first-hand.
I don't know, though . . . something about her method seems a little off to me.
Your thoughts?
Kinda disagree with both sides on this one, soooo...
ReplyDeleteStart with your side: Where do you draw the line? How many situations and experiences need to be tried out before you can trust that the person handles things in a way that's appropriate to what you need/feel/think/want? It never really ends... and it all changes once you're married and the situations actually come up, anyway.
On the other hand, references eliminate very little in general, unless the person is very honest and willing to say 'bad' things, and/or if they can be truly trusted on the good things to be giving their praise some actual value. That does come down to trust.
References in general pretty much save you a couple things: They help determine if the person is in the basic hashkafic range you're looking for, and they give you a basic idea of personality. These are things you'd probably find out within the first few dates yourself, so they only make those first couple of dates a little faster than if you'd go in not knowing anything. Once you've been going out for a few weeks, you're not generally picking up things that a reference/shadchan would be able to tell you.
Truth is I'd lean more your way, but don't take it too far. At some point, yes, you have to just say "okay, let's go". Everyone has their own comfort level as to what that point is; I like telling friends who ask "whenever you think you're 'sure', give it a drop longer... and then when you're still 'sure', give it another drop. If you're still 'sure' then... probably should go for it."
Agreed. I guess that line is basically the point at which you say: "This relationship will end now - either in an engagement or in a break-up - because I have satisfied my question of whether or not this person is right for me." And obviously you can't expect to know every little thing before you get married to someone . . . otherwise people would just date forever and not get married, because they "haven't seen how they'd react in situation x yet." That's unrealistic.
ReplyDeleteDunno. Guess it also comes down to what you're comfortable with - and that's different for each person. One person may feel secure in getting engaged after only having dated for two weeks, another may need a good four-five months, another may need a year. I'll be honest and admit that I really don't get how anyone can possibly do it in two weeks, but hey, it works for some people (I hope).
I'll be honest and admit that I really don't get how anyone can possibly do it in two weeks, but hey, it works for some people (I hope).
ReplyDeleteI didn't, and still don't love it, but I understood it far better after my cousin did it. They noted that going in, they knew that hashkafically/value-wise/etc. they were perfect matches. The only question was a personality mesh... and to some extent, that's seen within the first few dates. So once they had those and they went well... there wasn't much left.
Right, that's how my madricha in seminary explained it to me as well - they already know 98% of the info about the person, so all they really need to do is see if they get along.
ReplyDeleteStill, though ...!!
Not disagreeing. Just sayin'.
ReplyDeleteThat's different than info about someone's personality, though. I don't think there's a substitute for dating for that.
Hashkafa can be 'looked into' beforehand far more easily when it's in a box. The further you get from one, the harder it is.
I don't think there's a substitute for dating for that.
ReplyDeleteMe neither.
Hashkafa can be 'looked into' beforehand far more easily when it's in a box. The further you get from one, the harder it is.
I agree.
So, basically . . . we are saying the same stuff. :D
I dont know...
ReplyDeleteI cannot, under any set of circumstances, understand how 2 weeks will suffice for anything. that may barely be enough time to just get over any awkwardness.
I hate to make things black and white, but your relationship is either important or it is not. If it is entirely coming down to a similar hashkafa then 1-2 dates should suffice and arrangements can be made after the weekend. Otherwise, I would rank it like piloting classes, where you are judged by the number of hours you have invested.
I also think though, that you have to have enough time to slightly fall OUT of love with the other person. New relationships always have this shiny veneer that only moderately resembles the long-term dynamic.
Two weeks just cant cut it.
I also think though, that you have to have enough time to slightly fall OUT of love with the other person. New relationships always have this shiny veneer that only moderately resembles the long-term dynamic.
ReplyDeleteMhm. Basically what I was saying above with the "whenever you think you're 'sure', give it a drop longer... and then when you're still 'sure', give it another drop."
One parallel is to buying a new car. We read all the specs about the car, we read specs about lots of cars. We choose one out of many based on how well those specs match to what we want. We ask some people who have that particular model how they feel about the car. If the answers are positive we go out for a test drive.
ReplyDeleteSome people buy the car on the basis of 1/2 hour of test driving. Sometimes they really love what has been purchased and sometimes they end up happy with most features but not all. And sometimes it turns out that what would have suited them better would have been another car, despite all the hype they read before. When my car was in the shop I rented a car that we were seriously considering buying. I drove it for three days in all kinds of conditions, not just a 1/2 hour around the block. The car is no longer under consideration because it had two flaws that make it unacceptable to us--someone else might not have a problem with these "flaws."
All that info you get from other people is dating by proxy and it doesn't substitute for getting in the car and driving yourself. How long should you drive the car? Until you are satisfied that the years of usage will justify the initial price.
IMO, the short dating periods only work when both sides are completely committed to making it work. For example, my chassidish cousins do the typical chassidish way of dating; major checking up beforehand and very few actual dates (sit ins). The kids trust their parents completely, and basically, if they are not repulsed by each other, they get engaged. But they are committed to making the marriage work and dealing with each others' flaws. (Obviously if something like abuse is involved, G-d forbid, they can get out)
ReplyDeleteIn "our" circles (most of Ezzie's readers, I presume) there are different amounts of research done and it's more the individual's decision, rather than parents.
My feelings (as others have mentioned as well) research is only as good as the amount of trust you have in the people you are talking to. I can say that I have definitely given a guy more leeway when I saw things that bothered me, because the shidduch came from someone I trusted completely and who knew the guy and his family very well. But if that had not been the case, I would have broken up with him sooner. It also depends on the amount of trust you feel you have for the person you are dating. I can't date a guy who is closed off. And I totally agree with xvi about "falling out of love". Most new relationships are very rosy in the beginning, you need a cooling off period so you can have a better idea of what the person is like "in real life". That's also why I strongly discourage dating while on vacation. I know many people who go off to Israel or anywhere for that matter, and date a guy intensely for 10-14 days and think they are ready to get engaged. That is not real life! I have a friend who B"H saved herself from a broken engagement because her parents insisted she come back to the States before announcing the engagement. The guy couldn't travel on the exact same day she was going back, so they had a "cooling off period". By the time he got back, she realized it wasn't a good idea.
Also, like profk says about buying a new car. You might think you know what qualities you want in a spouse, but when you actually meet the person, you may realize you need different things. You can do all the research in the world, but if those traits you thought you wanted/needed don't "do it for you" then you may need time to realize that.
I agree; whenever I meet new people I like to see how they handle situations, so I push them down stairs.
ReplyDeleteI think you can’t have the discussion about dating time lengths without factoring in the physical aspect. It’s very easy to say that one should date for a long period so that they can get to know the other person better, or date for a short period because they already know so much about the other person. The three different attitudes toward being shomer negiah may very well dictate how long you date someone or how short you date someone. Three attitudes being: people who are shomer negiah without any questions that it will certainly remain that way throughout the entire relationship; people who are shomer negiah, but who may not be superman/woman and feel that they might be susceptible to their yetzer horas; people who are not shomer negiah.
ReplyDeleteNo matter what group anyone falls into, we are all human, and I doubt anyone can deny that certain tests will always exist. However, the bigger the battle a couple might be waging in order to stay shomer negiah, the more that it might sway their decision to make haste with the wedding. There’s probably some correlation or causation study or whatever that you could do to figure out the direct effect of shomer negiah struggle to dating lengths.
That was only factoring attitudes towards shomer negiah as a single separate factor. If you mix it together with general hashkafic views, religious circles, and all that other good stuff that plays a part in ones decision when to get engaged, things can get pretty complicated, and I think it becomes pretty hard to make too many generalizations.
We all know that if you want to discuss dating methods of Chassidim, they come from a completely different universe than the general readership of this blog, and it’s pretty close to irrelevant.
Going down the line, if you want to discuss how yeshivish people date, I always explain it that the reason they can date for two or three weeks is because they actually have much simpler lives than the average college student/career oriented yid. It’s pretty apparent what the hashkafos are of someone who sits in a run of the mill yeshiva all day, who doesn’t attend college, who’s not planning on attending college, who doesn’t work, etc. These people don’t have college schedules, mid-terms, finals, internships, career decisions, resumes, GPA’s and the like. They might not also have as intricate social lives, hobbies, or other interests due to their being rooted to a shtender. As a general rule, it seems to me that our pursuits dictate the complexity of our lives, and the more complex of a life we live, the more complex our dating scene would probably be, since that involves introducing someone to that ever so complex life of ours. Throw hormones in the mix, and things just get infinitely more complicated.
To each their own, i say.
ReplyDeleteJust be sure to keep the other party in the loop as to your approach and where you are in the process. It is the hight of selfishness and rudeness to string someone along.
I think that the short-dating method and the long-dating method both make sense, depending on what level of relationship people expect to have at the point of engagement.
ReplyDeleteYou can see if hashkafos are compatible before you begin dating, if you care to do thorough research, or within a few dates, if you'd rather find out live.
You can find a personality match within a few weeks--or fewer, if lucky. After about a month maximum, if you don't have the personality connection, it might not ever come and it's not worth waiting around for it.
The amount of time that it takes to devleop an emotional connection can vary widely. Similarly, to know how a person reacts in real-life situations, it could take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. To say that 'by x amount of time, these are either there or they're not' would be an inaccurate generalizaiton.
In Yeshivish circles, where the issue of unnecessary kriva l'erva is taken seriously, a lot of people make commitments based on hashkafa and personality alone--and since these two variables can be determined in a pretty uniform amount of time, there can be protocol about how long it is appropriate to date.* In circles where people want emotional connection and vetting in many real-life scenarios, there can be much more of a range of how long it could take to reach commitment, and therefore the protocols are less useful and more pressurizing. So, if a couple is going by the yeshivish system, I can see why some people might begin pressuring couples to decide at a certain point (not that I think it's very vice to pressure people). But in a system where there's an expectation of a more complex relationship before commitment, I think it's unreasonable to expect it to develop along a specific timeline.
Additionally, most non-yeshivish people want to feel 'sure' before committing, and there's no guarantee that a person will feel that by any particular time, if ever. It probably doesn't make sense to wait around indefinitely until one feels sure--at a certain point, more dating might not aid in making a final decision. But you can't make a generalized rule of how long it should take to reach that point because it certainly differs by couple.
*I'm not saying that the protocol of a dating timeline should exist, I'm just saying that it's easy to understand the circumstancecs under which it developed in its source society.
ReplyDeleteI agree; whenever I meet new people I like to see how they handle situations, so I push them down stairs.
ReplyDeleteThat's funny. I usually just dump a bucket of ice cold water on them when they walk in the door.
How do you do research to find out how someone would react in a given situation? What does that even mean?
ReplyDeleteall this dating stuff makes me want a cookie.
ReplyDeleteStam - LOL!!
ReplyDeleteall this dating stuff makes me want a cookie.
ReplyDelete==========
Sorry...the rules state only one per customer.
Sorry...the rules state only one per customer.
ReplyDeleteCan I have stam's cookie, then? I'm hungry.
It is the hight of selfishness
ReplyDeleteHeight.
-all this dating stuff makes me want a cookie.
ReplyDelete--Sorry...the rules state only one per customer.
---Can I have stam's cookie, then? I'm hungry.
===========
Aaaaawkwaaard...
Aaaaawkwaaard...
ReplyDelete:::more awkward!!!:::
"Boundaries be damned" (You may regret that)
ReplyDeleteCan I have stam's cookie, then? I'm hungry.
So many have tried...
Um........?
ReplyDelete*runs away from supposed awkwardness???*
*cries*
I JUST WANTED A COOKIE :(
I JUST WANTED A COOKIE :(
ReplyDelete:::sigh:::
Don't they all... don't they all.
Oh, in all seriousness (what?!), great comments by Jackie.
ReplyDeleteErachet, come to my room, and I will give you a cookie (NOT the metaphorical kind, I don't know where the heck you find those).
ReplyDeleteDuh.
ReplyDeleteV'hamayvin Yavin
My take is that no amount of research and trust in other people's opinions can be a substitute for my own judgment. And while I can use research to eliminate people who are COMPLETELY unsuitable or use advise from people in terms of assessing certain qualities and adjust my own behavior, in the end I have to find a fit for myself, and should know the person well. Not easy, obviously.
ReplyDeleteg said...
ReplyDeleteAaaaawkwaaard...
Ezzie said...
Aaaaawkwaaard...
:::more awkward!!!:::
g & double z, hehehe
Ezzie said
So many have tried...
who!? i got to the cookie before anyone else!!!
Erachet said...
Um........?
*runs away from supposed awkwardness???*
*cries*
I JUST WANTED A COOKIE :(
erechet- well you can't have mine!!!
the apple said...
Erachet, come to my room, and I will give you a cookie (NOT the metaphorical kind, I don't know where the heck you find those).
granny smith, try a wedding
Ezzie said...
Duh.
V'hamayvin Yavin
hilarious! but that cookie is already taken!!!!!
3/31/2008 07:22:00 PM
erechet- well you can't have mine!!!
ReplyDeleteOh yeah? Well, you spelled my name wrong.
*steals not-metaphorical cookies and sticks tongue out*
SO THERE.
Stam - Methinks some people started talking about another cookie... :P
ReplyDeleteok... now i want to know what the cookie is
ReplyDelete