Situation:
An Orthodox Jewish woman walks into a pharmacy to get a specific vitamin pill which was prescribed for her but is not Kosher. The pharmacist is also Orthodox, and questions her purchase of a non-Kosher pill. The woman replies that she asked a shaila to two different rabbonim and was told that she could do so for this [important] pill, which she only swallows and does not chew. The pharmacist then asks if she'd drink milk without a hechsher, to which she replies - amused - that milk doesn't need a hechsher. The pharmacist replies that he's never heard of such a psak about pills, and begrudgingly fills the prescription... but refuses to check the woman out at the pharmacy counter because of it, forcing her to go to the regular lines which take fifteen minutes.
Question:
Do you think the pharmacist was right or wrong for doing so, and why? What do you think the issues might be?
Note: I think this is slightly different from the cases in the courts regarding those unwilling to fulfill birth control or 'morning after' prescriptions; he
is filling the prescription. He's simply not performing the actual 'sale' of the item.
woman behind the counter is an idiot. tell her to ask RHS what he thinks (hint- not like her)
ReplyDeleteNote: It was a man behind the counter... do you mean the woman who asked or the guy behind the counter?
ReplyDeleteW/o the line about the milk I might give him the benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDeleteI think it depends on whether he is the owner or an employee. If he's the owner, there's less of a problem, because he can decide what to sell to whom (subject to the Civil Rights Acts of course). But if he's an employee I doubt he has such discretion written into his contract.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the analysis changes much because he's only not doing the sale. If it's his job to make the sale, he has to do it.
woman behind the counter is an idiot. tell her to ask RHS what he thinks (hint- not like her)
ReplyDeleteRHS doesn't think any milk is kosher if I understand him properly. I assume the woman holds like the vast majority of poskim who disagree.
G - Funny, because I think that swayed my own opinion slightly as well.
ReplyDeleteN - I should have mentioned that the case I'm referring to happened in a large chain; he's certainly an employee and not an owner.
He specifically said "but I'm not going to ring you up", which implies this would normally be something he does. I don't know if that's required per se.
ok let me rephrase- i thought the pharmasicts was a woman.- the pharmasicst is an idiot- tell him to ask RHS about swallowing pills that aren't kosher.
ReplyDeleteRe: RHS and milk- if you read the RJJ article, RHS doesn't say milk isn't kosher, he's just not sure why we are allowed to rely on certain chazakos. furthermore, he doesn't tell anyone they should follow him MSAC the pill he gives as a psak.
I saw someone talking about the milk thing and that was what I gathered as well; of course, that would in theory preclude all milk.
ReplyDeleteHe specifically said "but I'm not going to ring you up", which implies this would normally be something he does. I don't know if that's required per se.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about specific chains, but I'm pretty sure the pharmacist doesn't do the sale; that's usually the tech's job. Either way if it's something he normally does, he's wrong in this case.
Re: RHS and milk- if you read the RJJ article, RHS doesn't say milk isn't kosher, he's just not sure why we are allowed to rely on certain chazakos. furthermore, he doesn't tell anyone they should follow him MSAC the pill he gives as a psak.
You're right, and that's why he doesn't drink milk personally. He seems to oppose relying on those chazakos based on changed metzius.
I saw someone talking about the milk thing and that was what I gathered as well; of course, that would in theory preclude all milk.
ReplyDeleteYep, which is why we should thank G-d he didn't get a chance to explain himself to Rav Eliyashuv when they met last year. Can you imagine a milk ban?
It's possible that he was only a tech, though the person was under the impression he was a pharmacist.
ReplyDeleteAnd LOL on the milk ban, though it's not so funny. Oy. It'd be crazy.
And LOL on the milk ban, though it's not so funny. Oy. It'd be crazy.
ReplyDeleteI'm not joking. Apparently Rav Schacter wanted to speak to Rav Eliyashuv about the milk issue, but their time was cut short because the latter had to go to a bris. They never got to the crux of the issue, but if they had, who knows what would have happened?
I can understand the pharmacist's concern about selling something not kosher to an obviously Orthodox woman, but his comment on drinking milk without a hechsher just makes him look ignorant. Not to mention that it's not really his business what kind of medication she is buying.
ReplyDeleteThey never got to the crux of the issue, but if they had, who knows what would have happened?
ReplyDeleteNo, I know you're not joking. Apparently he didn't feel it was important enough to follow up on, though; I'd assume he can contact him if he felt it were that important. No?
If the woman asked a shaila and got the ok for the vitamin then it's really no business of the pharmacists other than to be a professional pharmacist.
ReplyDeletethis is no different than that awful story of the religious (christian) pharmacist who refused to fill the prescription for the girl who needed contraception.
ReplyDeletePersonal religious ideals of the pharmacist of the pharmacist should be irrelevent and imposing them on the customers are not his busness and he should not be in that line of work if he cant handle it. worst part is, the yenta stuck his nose where it didnt belong, she gave him the courrtesy of of an explanation and rabbinic response (which she was under no obligation to do0 and he still acts like a jerk?
Personal religious ideals of the pharmacist of the pharmacist should be irrelevent and imposing them on the customers are not his busness and he should not be in that line of work if he cant handle it.
ReplyDeleteI disagree if he's the owner of the store. He has every right not to sell contraception.
No, I know you're not joking. Apparently he didn't feel it was important enough to follow up on, though; I'd assume he can contact him if he felt it were that important. No?
I think he believes it's important but it's hard to get a personal meeting with Rav Eliyashuv. Maybe he also realizes that there could huge negative consequences if they actually speak again.
Hmmm... from my seat in Flyover Country, I'd have to say that the pharmacy employee is no posek. He's done his duty in stating that he believes the medicine to be not kosher, but if she tells him she asked a shaila, he doesn't need to know how many rabbis or why she needs it - he has performed due diligence, so has she, and it's time to ring her up!
ReplyDeleteIf I find out that someone I know is taking birth control, do I ask her if she knows that contraceptives, in general, are against Halacha? No, I judge favorably and assume she has who to rely on. Same thing here.
ReplyDeleteWould anyone who is condoning his actions answer in the affirmative the above question?
i feel the guy is a huge douche-bag and should mind his own business and do his job, which is to fill the prescription and not comment on it. and the woman who responded that she had permission from 2 rabbis should have said "mind your own fucking business, if i give you the prescription i obviously already dealt with the issues with a doctor!"
ReplyDeletei apologize for the language.
typical of some OJ sticking their nose in other people's business. Happened to my wife when we were in Sea World during a fast. My wife did not need to fast since it was close to when she gave birth and some woman approached her, and ofcourse, with an absolutly "lovely" atitude, says "you know its a fast today"
ReplyDeleteI think the pharmacist is sort of butting in where he doesn't belong. The woman said she asked two different rabbis and got permission to take this particular pill, so does he think he knows more than those rabbis? He doesn't know who she asked or what her situation is and when it comes to medicine, it isn't like eating nonkosher food, you know? This is something she NEEDS, maybe even for pikuach nefesh reasons. So if she got permission from TWO different rabbis (which shows how careful she was about it that she seems to have gone for a second opinion, after being told she's allowed to by one rabbi)...
ReplyDeletePlus the milk question was just rather stupid.
The pharmacist has done his duty in GENTLY mentioning this could be an issue. After the woman has noted she's considered that and consulted appropriate authorities, he has a chiyuv to judge the situation well and complete the business.
ReplyDeleteBTW, if he was the store owner, what's he doing selling the non-kosher item???
None of his business. All pharmacists should fill and sell whatever prescriptions doctors prescribe. Vitamins, birth control, morning after pills - whatever.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember learning that Rav Moshe, zt’l dealt with some cases similar to the case you are referring to. Note: the following is just my own thoughts that are coming to me here at work during a brief break – don’t follow anything you see here, and please correct where appropriate…)
ReplyDeleteCase 1: Can a person offer food to someone who will not make a blessing?
Case 2: Can a person send mail on Erev Shabbos when there will be Jewish people handling and processing the mail on Shabbos?
Case 3: Can a person work in a non-kosher restaurant and sell non-kosher food to a Jewish person whom you know will not make a blessing before eating.
I have to check my notes, but I think that:
Case 1: A specific question was posed to Rav Moshe by a person who wanted to set up a “taste test center” (i.e. he was marketing a new product and was trying to raise awareness) in a local supermarket. The person was concerned that people would eat the food and not make a bracha. (This issue also arises during the course of a business meeting, or simply day to day interaction with friends and neighbors). The issues to analyze are: (1) will the customers eat anyway without my help and (2) will not offering the food by a chilul Hashem?
Case 2: I think that there is a response dealing with this issue in the Igros Moshe, and that Rav Moshe held it permissible to mail a letter on erev shabbos since the intention of the mailer is to send a message via the USPS which is not Jewish. The fact that a Jewish person happens to work for them is not my concern (in this issue). Furthermore, if the Jewish person did not process the mail, someone else would.
Case 3: I think that this question was actually posed to Rav Moshe as well, and the response was that (1) if you do not work there, someone else will. Therefore a Jew who walks into a non-kosher restaurant will get the food regardless of who serves it. Again, the fact that a Jew happen to work there has no bearing on the person who wishes to partake in the non-kosher food.
While thinking about the case you mentioned (about the pharmacy), other issues come to mind as well. For example, is a person allowed to cause a loss to his employer (the pharmacy) because of his religious beliefs? In our case, perhaps the pharmacist should have quit his job if he felt so strongly about it. But I wonder, what if he would have succeeded in convincing the woman not purchase there because she felt “uncomfortable” and went somewhere else? Would that be stealing?
He should have minded his own biz.
ReplyDelete%%^&^& off, self righteous p^&k.
HH,
ReplyDeleteYou took a pregnant lady to SEA World?
I think he believes it's important but it's hard to get a personal meeting with Rav Eliyashuv. Maybe he also realizes that there could huge negative consequences if they actually speak again.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Which is a nice lesson if that is part of the delay. :)
BTW, if he was the store owner, what's he doing selling the non-kosher item???
ReplyDeleteHe's not the store owner, but if he were, he could have it simply for anyone else who'd want it.
Reb Abe - You're alive!! :) Great comments, thank you as always. If you get a chance to find them, that's even better... :P
ReplyDeleteI appreciate all the comments so far, and find it all very interesting. I agree with a lot of the points people are making, so I'm just going to present my own thoughts on the matter...
ReplyDeleteThe issue obviously starts with what the woman is buying, which contains non-kosher. The pharmacist/tech could simply assume that perhaps the woman is not aware that it has non-kosher. He also could assume that perhaps she is unaware that she's not supposed to take non-kosher medicine; it is clear that he is under this impression, at the least. This is true whether or not the pharmacist is actually correct; because he *thinks* that that is the halacha, he's warning the woman of it in case she doesn't know.
From my point of view, noting this is not at all a problem. He's trying to do a favor based on his understanding of the halacha. (Akiva put it well with the 'gently' comment.)
It's after that where I think it changes. The lady clearly states that she asked two people the shaila, and was told it was fine. That he has "never heard" of such a psak shouldn't matter, though perhaps one could say it would if he were an expert in the subject. I think that using the milk example - while it likely was just a simple 'pick a basic need' example - shows that the person is not an expert, but very much a layman when it comes to halacha. He didn't question the argument; he brought a case of eating or drinking regular non-kosher, which this clearly is not. That he picked a terrible example of something which doesn't need a hechsher only shows just how much of a layman he is in this, to me.
Even if one *would* assume he is a baki and *sure* that she shouldn't be ingesting this, I don't think he could refuse the sale. Someone argued to me that perhaps he thought he was transgressing lifnei iveir*; by giving the non-kosher to the woman, he was helping her eat the non-kosher. As Reb Abe noted, this likely doesn't apply - not only because someone else would be giving her the product, but because it's not his responsibility.
Once she has given the psak she received, however, I think it's all moot even if he is a baki. Her psak is what she can go by. More importantly, there's a whole host of dina d'malchusa dina issues, and if he's merely an employee as he is in this case, he can't be refusing to serve a customer. True, he is giving her the product, but checking her out would be standard.
In the end, all the pharmacist has accomplished is causing the woman an extra tircha, which is poor derech eretz and due to a poor understanding and application of halacha.
* Interestingly, I asked another friend what they thought, and they understood why the person did it and also stated lifnei iveir. They also stated that they personally would have given it once the lady said she had asked her own shailos; her rav said it's okay, so that's it - in line with a lot of what I'm saying above.
doesn't make sense- lifnei iver- she could easily get this somewhere else, just like the gem. in AZ says.
ReplyDeleteBoth of the people who mentioned it said it kind of parve: More like he doesn't want to 'have a hand' in it, even if she can get it from anyone else.
ReplyDeleteok, but it sounded literally when u 1st wrote it
ReplyDeleteSorry; happens to be I thought the first one meant it literally as well for a bit.
ReplyDeleteWould it be an outgrowth of lifnei iveir if he were correct?
My father has dealt with a bunch of such shaylas. L'halacha, there is no reason to take kosher medicine over non-kosher. Yeah, it might be more "feel good" to take the kosher meds, but you don't have to.
ReplyDeleteI was in a similar situation when I asked my dr. for a generic of the prescription she was giving me. She refused, saying that the generic wasn't know to be kosher. Uh... hello... let me burn if I want- my rav says it's fine and I can't afford the name brand!
My dad is a pharmacist and he used to own his own phramacy in a very Jewish area.
ReplyDeleteAll I'll say is that from time to time the opposite issue happened to him. Namely, patrons of his store would ask him if it was OK to take certain medicine (from a Halachic point of view). He'd always tell them to consult their local Halachic authority. (Sometimes he had to tell them repeatedly since they didn't seem to listen.)
If a halachic authority (in this case TWO of them) has said its ok to take the medicine then the pharmacist should honour that. So, yes, the pharmacist was wrong, IMHO.
Someone argued to me that perhaps he thought he was transgressing lifnei iveir
ReplyDeleteBut it isn't lifnei iveir if she ASKED TWO RABBIS ABOUT IT. You know what I mean? It isn't like she just decided on her own to do this. She was told by two sources (benefit of the doubt, hopefully reliable ones) that she was allowed to take the medicine. So it really doesn't matter what the pharmacist thinks. HE doesn't have to take the medicine, but she is NOT an iveir about it.
So there. :D
P.S. I never get the word verification right! This is my third time! :( Ezzie, your blog doesn't like me.
But it isn't lifnei iveir if she ASKED TWO RABBIS ABOUT IT. You know what I mean? It isn't like she just decided on her own to do this. She was told by two sources (benefit of the doubt, hopefully reliable ones) that she was allowed to take the medicine. So it really doesn't matter what the pharmacist thinks. HE doesn't have to take the medicine, but she is NOT an iveir about it.
ReplyDeleteFrom a Halachic perspective, this is the key point. It's not lifnei iver if the person one is helping has someone to rely on. For example even if I don't drink non-Chalav Yisroel I am allowed to purchase such an item for a friend who relies on Rav Moshe.
This incident is pretty upsetting for me, pretty much for all the reasons everyone has been saying. Also, if he finally filled her prespriction, it was not right for him to punish her further by not allowing her to pay for her medicine with him, and to force her to stand in a new line. The pharmacist already made his point about being bothered about her medication, but who authorized him to harass her even more?
ReplyDeletemilk may need a hechsher. there are vitamins and such which are added to the milk that could be not kosher. This is not a cholov yisroel issue. The ou certifies plenty of different brands of milk that are not cholov yisroel but nonetheless have a hechser.
ReplyDeleteBefore I read ezzie's ultra long comment I was thinking along the same lines.
ReplyDeleteThis case seems to be like a pharmacist not fulfilling contraception orders but it isn't.
The pharmacist happens to be a closed minded moron who thinks that everything is black and white and no other psak matters.
He also seems to be under the assumption that he's transgressing lifnei iver by selling it to her.
Either way if I were his boss I'd put his butt on the sidewalk that night. He clearly failed to perform his job in a satisfactory manner and that is inexcusable.