In the course of conversation, I referenced a conversation I'd had with another friend (B) recently at a wedding, which also touched on this issue of growth. He'd noted that he has a hard time explaining to other people 'what he wants', but I'd understand, having grown up [all too] similar: He wants a *normal* frum Jewish girl. The basic gist was that we know what we need to do, what we're supposed to do, etc.; it's really not all that complicated. It tied in with previous conversations I've had with many people including him about growth and the like - people are who they are, and don't see a special need to be constantly 'growing' the way many people term it. Growth doesn't (necessarily) require change - but when one person says they want someone who is looking to grow, and the other is pretty content overall with how they are now, they each think the other has a very different mindset. Another friend (C) who recently got his semicha and is planning on being a rav said something similar: "I am who I am. I need a normal Jewish girl, not some hashkafa-spouting rebbetzin. If when I ask a girl how things are and hear 'Boruch Hashem yom yom' one more time, I'm going to go nuts."
Perhaps I'm being charitable, but as I said to A on Friday, I believe B meant/would agree with the following: There is a marked difference between a person who feels a need to constantly find something new [e.g. a chumra, though not limited to that], and a person who stumbles upon something and decides that this is something they need. A put it well:
i would agree (mostly) - especially w/ the last part -if there is something extra that will particularly help you, then i think it is beneficial to take it on - as long as you understand why you're doing it and how it helps you.I think that this is something just about everyone agrees with. The difference becomes those people and the rest, whom I think A termed perfectly: Anxious. As in,
"I don't think it's good for someone to be very anxious about their Judaism. You should be happy with yourself, but also looking to improve if you learn that you're doing something wrong or could be doing something better." [Ez: depending on the definition of 'could be better'; A: Agreed]The problem often is that people feel anxious that they aren't 'doing enough', so they try to do more - and while some of it is nice, much of it is unnecessary. It's not normative Judaism. When someone like B or C says they're looking for someone normal, I think they're nailing this problem on the head. Whatever happened to just being normal? To working on yourself without feeling anxious that you have to do something 'more'?
Particularly in light of the upcoming Yomim Na'ora'im, I think it's important to remember that there are different aspects to a cheshbon hanefesh; concentrating on what one can do better, and concentrating on what more he or she can do. While for some the latter may apply, the former seems more proper and more in line with what we should be doing. We should not feel a special need to search out ways in which we can 'change'; we should not have this anxiety over our Judaism. We should be honest with ourselves about who we are and what we do, and fix that which we feel needs fixing.
Shana Tova U'mesuka - may this be a year of sweetness, happiness, joy... and normalcy.
Thanks to B and C, who put a number of the thoughts involved in this post in my mind; more importantly, thank you very much to A for all the comments and quotes that led to it being written, and of course for reminding me to actually write it. :)
Glossary
semicha - ordination as a Rabbi
rav - Rabbi, generally of a synagogue
hashkafa - [loosely] ideals/philosophy
Rebbetzin - Rabbi's wife
Baruch Hashem yom yom - Bless/Thank God day by day/every day
Yomim Na'ora'im - High Holidays, including Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur
Cheshbon Hanefesh - self-reckoning or self-evaluation (of the soul)
Shana Tova U'mesuka - Have a happy, sweet new year
Nice job with the boxes - I read everything this time.
ReplyDeleteOk, now for a real comment...
ReplyDeleteFor me, growth is about knowing yourself better and knowing what is the right path for you, rather than keeping up with the Goldbergs or wearing thicker stockings. To me, even if you become "less frum" but it fits you better, that can really be growth, whether others approve or not. Because when you really own something, and you do it for yourself, rather than doing it because other people want you to, you learn so much more and you become stronger. When you know WHY you are doing something and can defend it to others, it really becomes part of you. And that's real growth.
I also hear this a lot (usually coming from the pulpit). We have to keep "growing", we should never be satisfied with where we are, we should never be complacent in our yiddishkeit.
ReplyDeleteMakes me feel there's something wrong with me because, on the whole, I feel pretty good about myself.
I don't believe change for the sake of change is a good thing. Sometimes you need to appreciate what you're doing right and stick to it.
On the other hand, I've encountered a certain rigidity amongst people and I think that's unhealthy.
A healthy person is flexible. And honest. Honest enough to say, "I really could be doing better" and flexible enough that when he/she realizes that they've been doing something wrong, that they are willing to make a change.
About that "baruch hashem yom yom" stuff. It annoys me too. It's like a little cop out.
I asked how you were doing! Either answer me or don't, but blow me off with a little catchphrase.
BTW I like the little glossary idea.
Ksiva Vechasima Tova
It also bothers me when people are anxious about their Judaism (great way to put it, btw). Being Jewish should make you happy; not guilty over not doing enough. Excellent points, Shoshana, as well. I think that when you hear about a new chumra or something like that, you should really think about WHY you would be taking it on; not just deciding on the spot that this will make you a better Jew. Even when you find out you are doing something wrong, like Hilchos Shabbas or Kashrus, maybe, you should understand how to do it correctly and don't beat yourself up if you forget.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, it very much bothers me when people do things very wrong (I'm not talking about chumras here) and feel perfectly comfortable in their watered down "brand" of Judaism. All Jews should be trying to do the best they can.
Ezzie, pass on some guys to me who are looking for a normal girl; I think I qualify ;)
I completely agree with this post. I have a friend who is engaged right now and my mom asked him what guys are generally looking for in girls and his response was: Guys are looking for normal girls while a lot of girls are looking for kolel guys, aka guys who will spend all their time in Yeshiva learning. But a lot of guys don't actually want that.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how accurate that statement is (I've never actually paid a ton of attention or taken a survey or anything), but the thing is, I completely understand about guys wanting "normal" girls (however we interpret normal). There aren't enough of us.
Shoshana - :P
ReplyDeleteAgreed, strongly. One of the best things I ever heard was from a number of people (across the 'spectrum') advising me to leave what some consider a more "frum" place to go to another. [In reality it was simply more "yeshivish", not more "frum".] They all told me that I needed to not worry about how other people would perceive it, but what was best for me and what fit me. My charedi cousins specifically said "you were much happier there and need to go back".
Anyway, amen.
PT - I don't believe change for the sake of change is a good thing. Sometimes you need to appreciate what you're doing right and stick to it.
ReplyDeleteExactly.
I agree with you completely on the honesty and flexibility as well. The most important part of that is the honesty; a person needs to be honest about who they are and where their faults lie... and of course, flexible enough to change their ways if needed.
K'siva V'chasima Tova!
SaraK - The anxious term was what I loved; thank "A", who came up with it.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest, I have little to say but "exactly". As with everything, balance is of utter importance.
Heh - you're one of the people I thought of who'd really appreciate those parts... :)
Erachet - Guys are looking for normal girls while a lot of girls are looking for kolel guys, aka guys who will spend all their time in Yeshiva learning. But a lot of guys don't actually want that.
ReplyDeleteI think that's true to an extent. I think that that may be because it's easier to see what's best for you than to see what's a *fit* for you. While both guys and girls are taught "oh, learning is the highest level" etc. in yeshivas and seminaries, guys might sooner realize that maybe it's not for them individually, while a girl might have to wait until she's dated a number of learning boys before she'd realize that perhaps it's not for her. Even then, she might not think it's not for her; just that she needs to find the 'right one'.
There aren't enough of us.
I wonder about that, actually. Sometimes I think it's true, and sometimes I think there are plenty. I guess it's more of a problem of people assuming what individual guys and girls want, and they're not matching up the normal with the normal.
I would definitely say that being a good Jew requires the constant desire to "grow." This does not necessarily mean taking on new chumras, because pretty much no one (except maybe the greatest gadol) has totally mastered the basics yet. It doesn't mean changing your lifestyle to fit with a more right wing hashkafa. It isn't about doing things for show, but about consistently working on the things that can always be improved, like treating others kindly, not judging others, learning more, kevana in tefilah, etc. We all have room to grow in these areas, and being aware that you can improve doesn't mean being unhappy with who you are. Constantly working to make these things *better,* as Ezzie said, is more meaningful and more important than taking on more and more to convince others how frum you are. The growth should be constant, but it should be subtle. In all likelihood, no one will know how hard you're working. But it is the expression of a basic desire to improve, and an unwillinglness to reamin stagnant. I believe that this is what Hashem desires of us as Jews: a slow but constant movement forward.
ReplyDeleteSJ - Great comment.
ReplyDeletebeing aware that you can improve doesn't mean being unhappy with who you are.
Exactly!
to convince others how frum you are
I think a lot of people are actually not even doing it for this show, but to convince *themselves* how frum they are. They're insecure and - well, anxious about their frumkeit.
In all likelihood, no one will know how hard you're working.
I think that's the biggest point. People often look at others to see if they're growing and think "well, it doesn't look like he/she has changed all that much"; in reality, however, they've changed tremendously - just not in ways that people can necessarily tell.
I believe that this is what Hashem desires of us as Jews: a slow but constant movement forward.
Amen.
Great post.
ReplyDeleteI think that taking things (mitzvos)a little more seriously helps to keep on rooted in ones personality.
Anxious is a good term.
Who is this B person that was so willing to bestow such insight and wisdom. Would that I should come across such a person in my travels, I would soak up all that he was willing to impart.
ReplyDeleteTruly it would seem that this noble fellow has obtained a clarity of thought seldom seen and even rarer met. Lucky have you been dear Ez to have had the opportunity to spend time with this swami, this...Yoda.
I hope you realize, I hope you are aware...
"I'd understand, having grown up [all too] similar"
ReplyDeleteHAH!!! You wish, ***hightser :p***
This is relatively funny. A guy with semicha looking to be a rav doesn't want a girl who's rebbitzen-ish. Someone answering 'Baruch Hashem' bothers others.
ReplyDelete[On that note, I'd say I've tried 'Baruch Hashem, you know, really lousy, the kids are making me crazy and one's trying to get thrown out of school, my boss is an ass, and my wife's being a real ....', but someone people just get this funny look on their face and quickly wander away from you, so "Baruch Hashem yom yom seems to work real well instead. I tried "Baruch Hashem, the Shabbos chulunt gave me diarrhea" once, but that person has been sitting on the other side of shul from me every since then.]
And no one wants to grow, they all want to wither?
What the conversation really says is this, 'we're sick of the standard platitudes of our society, but feel too constrained given our age/role/shidduch prospects to say anything except when speaking quietly with a friend.'
So go, break out of the mold, next time someone asks how you are, answer, "Baruch Hashem, I had bad diarrhea yesterday, how about you?"
For real now:
ReplyDelete'what he wants' - I never like the way this sounds, not that it prevents me from saying it. More like "looking for" or "prefer".
Growth. The only quicker dial-tone inducing word is "conform". Growth, right, like I have my current situation/level/abilities/madregah figured out so much that I can worry about creating new ones. Growth, because I am so sure of who I am that I have time to sit and figure who I want to become.
Growth, the kind where I need to leave behing what I was in some glorious attempt to be attain a preconceived notion of "better".
Space, the final front...woops, sorry.
Growth, but only when it's something tangible like a new seder or giving up something "mundane".
Growth, for the sake of what...growth itself?
Liste, growth is greta and for all those who actively seek it and plan it, more power to you. However, there is something to be said for improving upon yourself in normal course of things. Life presents many opportunities and situations, usually at a dizzying pace if we're paying attention. All of these allow for personal growth w/o it being written in you daily planner or palm pilot.
As someone said, I like me (not in Terrel Owens sort of way, more of a my parents knew what they were doing sort of way).
That doesn't mean I'm perfect, (although I've been told...), and it doesn't mean I don't hope to become a better person/man/jew/son/friend and hopefully in the near future husband/father. It just means I choose to try and figre out the best way to be who I AM, through improving on my essentials.
Not wither.
ReplyDeleteHow about this. If you are always growing...when will you bloom?
G1 - LOL. I knew that was coming, and STILL cracked up.
ReplyDeleteG2 - Haha! But doesn't count unless YOU lived there growin' up. Sorry, you don't get to be a snob.
Akiva - I think you missed the point a bit. The point here is NOT that people don't want to grow, but that growth is not something that should be measured by trivialities. It's not the "Boruch Hashem" part, it's the 'yom yom' part, which he feels is something people are saying because they think it's "more frum". People shouldn't have this anxiety that they constantly need to find something to change or they're somehow lacking. That's not what it's all about.
ReplyDeleteAnd no one wants to grow, they all want to wither?
Absolutely not. Again, there are different ways of growing. One is healthy, the other unnecessary.
What the conversation really says is this, 'we're sick of the standard platitudes of our society, but feel too constrained given our age/role/shidduch prospects to say anything except when speaking quietly with a friend.'
Not at all. This is questioning the standards of our society. Wasn't it always assumed that people are trying to grow? What is this new "growth" people are speaking of? Is that good? [A: Should have been; external/superficial/extra; No.] And it's not just in quiet conversations, it's becoming every Shabbos table or stam shmoozing that somehow gets onto these subjects. Whatever happened to just being a good, normal Jew?!
FWIW - I've done "Baruch Hashem, sick." and the like. :)
G3 - I never like the way this sounds, not that it prevents me from saying it. More like "looking for" or "prefer".
ReplyDeleteI hear ya.
As to all the rest, I could not say any of it better. Perfectly put.
G4 - If you are always growing...when will you bloom?
Interesting. I like that.
Anyone else find it funny that it's strange or evasive to say you are looking for someone who is "growing" or to say "Baruch Hashem yom yom" but it's genius to say that you are looking for someone who is "normal"?
ReplyDeleteThis whole concept really resonates with me. Like many commenters, I've heard that we can never rest and be content with who we are, and personally, it very nearly almost sent me running for the hills of 'I don't think Orthodoxy is for me'-land.
ReplyDeleteI think it may be one of those things where it's intended in a positive way by the teachers/rebbeim, but when it gets disemminated, people tend to overdo it and think that they've got to have this attitude/appearance of having a terrible load to bear and berating themselves internally, or assuming that whatever they feel must be wrong.
I know some martyr types, and to me, they seem to be borrowing a page from another religion - which is why I think that to some extent the problem is misinterpretation.
I struggled with this as a teenager, and also when RaggedyDad and I first got married and I was unsure about how we defined ourselves. It took a little time to figure out, and to have the confidence, to just be me.
Ezzie--
ReplyDeleteA few things:
I totally agree with your post. Espectially the end, "I think it's important to remember that there are different aspects to a cheshbon hanefesh; concentrating on what one can do better, and concentrating on what more he or she can do. While for some the latter may apply, the former seems more proper and more in line with what we should be doing. We should not feel a special need to search out ways in which we can 'change'; we should not have this anxiety over our Judaism. We should be honest with ourselves about who we are and what we do, and fix that which we feel needs fixing."
We should try to improve ourselves and areas that we feel need improvement. No one is perfect. I have noticed that some people, especially with regard to dating and breaking off a shidduch, think that it always is because of the other person, but maybe it is something that both people can change. It is never just because of one person because no one is perfect. Am I making sense? I hope you understand what I am trying to say...Either way, great post!!!
P.S. Keep your friends in LA in mind when thinking of all of these guy friends!
Your point is exactly what we were discussing with Scraps over dinner tonight -- and came to the same conclusion!
ReplyDelete(Also agree with Shoshana's point about growth_)
great post, i think my thoughts on the matter have been mentioned in the comments already!
ReplyDeletewhere are all these 'normal' guys though?! ;)
(i do, however, think that there must be a better word than 'normal' when discussing needs for shidduchim. 'normal' is all well and good but there has to be a better descriptive word or words out there that can be used...)
Anyone else find it funny that it's strange or evasive to say you are looking for someone who is "growing" or to say "Baruch Hashem yom yom" but it's genius to say that you are looking for someone who is "normal"?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to split this into two and address the latter part first. I sent this post to a number of people via e-mail, thinking they might get something out of it; as I said in that email, there's nothing particularly original in the post. It's not genius, it's a comment on some of the frustrations we see, particularly among friends who are dating but not limited to dating whatsoever.
I don't think anyone said or implied it was evasive, and I don't even think the intention was to make it 'strange' as opposed to 'normal'; that's not what the term normal is intended to convey here. It's more of a questioning as to where these terms and so-called ideals came from.
I'm noticing that the most surprised commenters here (David, Akiva) are also the oldest, which may be playing a role. [Not an attack; I just wonder if things have changed since y'all had more frequent close dealings with people who are saying things like this.] I can only speak from my own POV well, so I'll do that: I get to hear pretty often from people who are dating or looking to date. A *constant* question/request/etc. is "I need a guy/girl who is looking to grow."
Well, what does that mean looking to grow? If it's just the general idea of someone looking to improve, I'd like to think that almost all people fit into that category. But what they generally seem to be referring to (after some prodding) is change. They want someone who is going to keep on taking on more things, etc., though they usually couch it in different terms; and often, they probably don't even realize the end result of what they're asking about. I don't know if you saw G's comment above (the one that starts with "for real now"), but I think it was excellent.
Perhaps a good way to understand this is in terms of one's self. If I were to ask you "How are you growing now?", what would you answer? I'm guessing that you might or might not have an answer, but if you did, it likely would be in regards to something you feel that you can do better than you do now - not something "new". And I think that's how it should be, too. The problem here seems to be this anxiousness that people have that they must always be finding something "new" to do.
RM - I think it may be one of those things where it's intended in a positive way by the teachers/rebbeim, but when it gets disemminated, people tend to overdo it and think that they've got to have this attitude/appearance of having a terrible load to bear and berating themselves internally, or assuming that whatever they feel must be wrong.
ReplyDeleteI agree on both the positive intentions and how it affects the students. Part of how this conversation with "A" got started was from a shiur A was listening to from high school, where the Rebbe was essentially using a guilt technique on the students to get them to do something. It was emphasized that if they didn't, their actions would have a tremendous negative effect. Now, while I'm not a fan of this technique in general, I understand that he presented it well, and I actually believe that it was probably a good technique for most of the students there, particularly at that time. The problem is that people internalize this approach: I *need* to take this on or be over-careful with this just in case, because chas v'shalom I slip up and have a negative effect.
I know some martyr types, and to me, they seem to be borrowing a page from another religion - which is why I think that to some extent the problem is misinterpretation.
Agreed.
And no one wants to grow, they all want to wither?
ReplyDeleteNot that exactly. I think we all want to grow - it's only natural for human beings to want to succeed in whatever venue in life they're supposed to. But there's a difference between growing and obsessively putting on some sort of act or show in order to convince someone - either others or yourself - that you're 100% frum, there's no way anyone can say you're not, you meet everyone's standard of frumkeit, etc. I think that's the point Ezzie's trying to make here. Be comfortable with who you are. Try to grow, yes, but in ways you feel are really necessary in order to make you a better Jew, not just in order to give you a better image. Like the saying, "know thyself." Know yourself. Know your limitations, your capabilities. Know where you need to improve and what negative qualities you want to work on. But it shouldn't be this whole song and dance that the whole world needs to see. It should be internal and private, as any strong relationship is (the relationship here being with Hashem, or with Judaism itself). And taking on chumra upon chumra upon chumra does not mean you're becoming a better Jew. I strongly believe that we're supposed to live in this world in the best way possible and that we were never meant to restrict ourselves more than what we were commanded by the Torah and by the Rabbanim. Chumras are good when there is doubt, but at a certain point, how many chumras are you going to take? A chumra for the chumra for the chumra for the chumra? I mean, it starts to get a bit over the top, don't you think?
No one is perfect. I have noticed that some people, especially with regard to dating and breaking off a shidduch, think that it always is because of the other person, but maybe it is something that both people can change. It is never just because of one person because no one is perfect.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Slightly off-topic, but you reminded me: A friend of mine had been dating a while and was frustrated that he didn't seem to be getting anywhere. I commented that he doesn't give people enough time - as soon as he finds a "flaw", that's it. He should spend more time dating them and see if those things are important; he needed to learn that he can get past some things. (That doesn't mean ignore problems, just take time to recognize what actually is important.) He heard what I had to say, agreed, and applied it. He told me "You were right, nothing gets past me." He had to learn to be patient and see if some of these things were important. It's now about 3 months later, and he just got engaged. :)
Irina - :) Ahh, the irony...
ReplyDelete~Sarah~ - America, duh. Come visit! :P
I agree on the use of the word normal; however, I think that's part of the point. All the definitions and characterizations have really taken away from just... being normal.
Erachet - Excellent comment again.
ReplyDeleteBut there's a difference between growing and obsessively putting on some sort of act or show in order to convince someone - either others or yourself - that you're 100% frum
Exactly. Or as my friend used to jokingly refer to himself when he did certain chumros, [think superhero] "I'm SUPERfrum."
I think that's the point Ezzie's trying to make here. Be comfortable with who you are. Try to grow, yes, but in ways you feel are really necessary in order to make you a better Jew, not just in order to give you a better image. Like the saying, "know thyself." Know yourself. Know your limitations, your capabilities. Know where you need to improve and what negative qualities you want to work on. But it shouldn't be this whole song and dance that the whole world needs to see. It should be internal and private, as any strong relationship is (the relationship here being with Hashem, or with Judaism itself). And taking on chumra upon chumra upon chumra does not mean you're becoming a better Jew.
Exactly! Want to be my speech writer? :)
I strongly believe that we're supposed to live in this world in the best way possible and that we were never meant to restrict ourselves more than what we were commanded by the Torah and by the Rabbanim. Chumras are good when there is doubt
Agreed, and somewhat agreed. If anything, it's more of a reminder how much we need to improve our learning. My FIL likes to say, "Anyone can be machmir. It takes someone who knows what they're talking about to be meikel."
"Don't be normal, be yourself."
ReplyDeleteThis time at least I can say I am coming to America!
People can look at themselves honestly to become aware of their midos that need correction or reinforcement. Whether that correction or reinforcement means adopting new thought patterns, new practices, new life goals, or something else, depends on the situation. You have to be aware of the ways your personal changes can affect others around you.
ReplyDeleteIn taking stock, don't ignore your good points! Knowing those makes it easier to deal with improvement. At any rate, we're Jews, which is certainly a major good point.
Sarah - That's a great line. :) And I know, we're excited!
ReplyDeleteBob M - Agreed. That's part of the point: First figure out what you need, then do whatever needs to be done. Not the other way around.
And amen on the good points. Applicable in many walks of life.
One more:
ReplyDeleteThis is a hard idea to verbalize w/o it sometimes coming off as a cop-out or simply self justification. I understand the comments that seem to be wondering what the issue here is at all.
For me it comes down to growing being about finding opportunities when they arise in hopes of ultimately becoming a better version of me, kind of like G 4.0, while during the other times trying to do what I think is right as best and as often as I can. Is it good to pick something every so often to focus on and choose as a goal, no question.
Yet, I feel that sometimes it is good to stop and tighten up the ship a little and reign in the sails before seeing if there are any new bells and whistles that can be added. Kind of like doing 10 things at 85% as apposed to 20 at 70.(Okay that's enough imagry for one comment)
As was said above, I don't think about it in terms of being able to answer the question "So, what are you currently working on as a way of growing as a person?". It works for some but not for all (this is important to remember as I read some comments that are wrapping this into a different discussion, that of the active push to move "right", it will and does work for some).
Here is a powerful story told by the Divrei Chaim of Sanz ZY"A on this topic:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/print_shiur.asp?id=3888
Thank G-d, I've been married now for almost 11 years. However, I must have had this conversation with my friends dozens of times when I was dating. I was the typical "normal" post-seminary girl in that I wanted a guy who was working (as opposed to learning or being in chinuch) but someone who would also be "koveah itim l'torah." It’s now 13 years later, and my perspective has changed accordingly.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to be a bad guy (or gal) here, and I have a feeling that I may be attacked for this. For everyone out there that is dating now, I'm going to offer you a bit of a reality check. It's all fine and dandy to say NOW that you want to marry someone who will continue "growing" with you, but the truth of the matter is that after you are married for a while, the daily grind becomes the norm. You will, G-d willing, have children running around, jobs to go to, a mortgage to pay, and you may even volunteer your time to various organizations.
Just going to minyan each day becomes a task, and if you don’t work in an area that has a daily mincha minyan, you can forget about davening with a minyan three times daily. How many of you in the dating population now would NEVER even consider marrying someone/being someone that would miss minyan daily? And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Something else you may not realize is that being koveah itim l'torah may mean one thing now, but it could mean something else entirely 10—or even 5—years from now.
Which brings me to the topic of “growing.” I like what Ezzie said a few comments ago when he asked how each of you is growing right now. Because I think that’s really important.
To me, as a happily married mother of two, growing doesn’t just mean taking on new chumrot or attending more shiurim. Growing means that you have the ability to look around you and figure out what needs to be done within your marriage and within your family to ensure that your home is full of kedusha and that your spouse and children are happy. Growing means that you know the difference between right and wrong, and that even when things are tough, you still try to do the right thing.
That doesn’t mean that I’m discounting going to minyan or setting more time aside each week to learn with a chavruta. I think that growing means that you continually try to gain maturity and wisdom in order to balance your life and be a frum Jew in this day and age.
In my opinion, every family is going to achieve this goal by using a different method.
Sadly the dating scene is mostly external. I was just speaking with someone I knew when I was single (we were almost set up at one point but it didn't pan out) at a multi-family BBQ last Sunday about the fact that if I was single today I probably wouldn't get a shidduch b/c my growth at this stage is way more internal than external (occasionally I have my 'uber BT' moments, as my wife calls them).
ReplyDeleteBeing 'normal' with growth attached could be simply taking 3 seconds before making a bracha.
I see the external influnces of yiddishkeit even with my almost 8 yr old son. He's totally into the idea of growing his peyos out behind his ears. A few kids in his class rock the look, but I do not. It's not something I took on. Again and again my wife and I tell him that the measurement his of peyos has no relation to measurement of his closeness to Hashem.
This focus on externals starts way before dating.
G - Another great comment.
ReplyDeleteBob - That was great, thanks.
JStein - Awesome comment.
It's all fine and dandy to say NOW that you want to marry someone who will continue "growing" with you, but the truth of the matter is that after you are married for a while, the daily grind becomes the norm.
Very true. Psychotoddler and AidelMaidel have both written great posts about this, IIRC.
How many of you in the dating population now would NEVER even consider marrying someone/being someone that would miss minyan daily? And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Something else you may not realize is that being koveah itim l'torah may mean one thing now, but it could mean something else entirely 10—or even 5—years from now.
[nodding repeatedly]
Growing means that you have the ability to look around you and figure out what needs to be done within your marriage and within your family to ensure that your home is full of kedusha and that your spouse and children are happy. Growing means that you know the difference between right and wrong, and that even when things are tough, you still try to do the right thing.
Exactly.
In my opinion, every family is going to achieve this goal by using a different method.
Yep.
if I was single today I probably wouldn't get a shidduch b/c my growth at this stage is way more internal than external
ReplyDeleteI think that's true for most people.
This focus on externals starts way before dating.
Agreed. I actually intended the post to be far more general; these just happened to be good, recent examples to use.
Indeed, food for though as I get ready to pick up my external garment known as a kittel from the dry cleaners. :)
ReplyDeleteHe's totally into the idea of growing his peyos out behind his ears. A few kids in his class rock the look, but I do not
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Rocking the peyos!
Nice!
I'm a little late joining this discussion, but I was just discussing the phenomena of describing a single as "growing" or looking for someone "growing" with my husband.
ReplyDeleteUnless this is code language (which I believe it might be), it is a fairly undescriptive way to describe a single (or describe yourself). I'll try to write more later at my blog because I'm so frustrated by this adjective that leaves me with nothing concrete. Does it mean a person is trying to move from one spectrum of Orthodoxy to another? Does it mean that they are working hard on fighting a specific negative midda?
As a dabbling, amateurish shadchan, my preference is to hear about how a person envisions their daily grind (thank you jstein for a great comment!).
To sephardilady - You're quite welcome, and I look forward to reading about this topic on your [brilliant] blog in the near future.
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, I hope that I provided some good food for thought for all the singles out there.
Well, I've been debating whether or not I should "out" myself, but as my wise words (heh) have generated such a good discussion, I think it's safe to tell you all that A is for Apple (did any of you figure it out? Although, Ezzie, I'm assuming that was a happy coinkidink).
ReplyDeleteShoshana - self-awareness is absolutely key. I have struggled with that a bit lately (and probably the struggle isn't over), but as I come closer to getting more comfortable with myself, I realize what is important for me to concentrate on improving at this stage in my life.
PT - flexible is a very good word. To me, being anxious stems from a lack of flexibility (except being overly willing to change every single behavior when told to do so by a higher-up, however you wish to interpret that).
SaraK - I couldn't have put it better myself: On the other hand, it very much bothers me when people do things very wrong (I'm not talking about chumras here) and feel perfectly comfortable in their watered down "brand" of Judaism. All Jews should be trying to do the best they can. Totally, 100% agree! And thank you on the "anxious" nod.
SJ - It doesn't mean changing your lifestyle to fit with a more right wing hashkafa. Very good point. In my personal opinion, no matter what your hashkafos are, everybody is bound to the same halacha, and just being more "modern" in your hashkafa doesn't exempt you from following halacha very closely.
Neil Harris - agreed. And thanks.
G1 - *applause* may I echo your sentiments?
Akiva - What the conversation really says is this, 'we're sick of the standard platitudes of our society, but feel too constrained given our age/role/shidduch prospects to say anything except when speaking quietly with a friend.' I don't know if you're specifically referring to my conversation with Ezzie, or the comment thread, but I, for one, generally state my opinions to just about anyone, and I frankly don't think that it's going to hinder my shidduch prospects, G-d willing.
G3/G4 - excellently put. I think you're articulating what people don't always want to admit to themselves - that they have way more to work on that is actually halacha before jumping to the chumras.
Okay, I want to respond to more of these comments, but I've got to run, so iy"H I'll be back soon to leave you more of my wise words.
(And for all those who were wondering, no, I am *not* a guy.)
"that they have way more to work on that is actually halacha before jumping to the chumras."
ReplyDeleteMaybe, maybe not. I really don't think this is as connected to the chumra trend/fad so much. Not sure how but it just feels different, more sincere perhaps.
"G1 - *applause* may I echo your sentiments?"
-no, you may not :P (too easy)
"G3/G4"
-when did I turn into spaces on a battleship board?
Actually, the A *was* for Apple. :) But then I figured I'd use B & C for the others...
ReplyDeleteEz,
ReplyDeleteThanks for making me feel old! :)
I think that perhaps Akiva and I seem to be the most put off by the post not only because we are alter kakers but also because we may be more to the right of things then most of the other commentors. Now, you know me so you know I'm not what most might consider haredi and of the more well known yeshivas, the one that you and I mostly associate with certainly falls to the left within the yeshiva world. That yeshiva also happens to be a mussar yeshiva and I think that part of my take on the post and the comment thread comes from there.
To me, it seems more than a little judgmental of those that are choosing to "grow" in ways that are different than the way it seems has been set down here as the "right way" to grow. It seems to say that someone that is taking on more as opposed to perfecteing, so to speak, those things they are already doing is disingenous or trying to show off their frumkeit. Sure, there are people that are doing that. No question. But the post set it up as if everyone who is "growing" that way is doing that. I also think, especially for BTs, that therre are things that a person is bot yet ready to take on at one point but is ready for later. Ex. wearing a yarmulke to work.
Another problem that I have with the post is that such an approach often leads to a feeling of "this is as good as I get and that's fine". IMHO, that's not a good place. Of course, one has to have self-esteem and take pride and what they have done to become the person that they are right here and right now. But, that does not preclude introspection and self-analysis of areas where growth (there's that word again) is possible and positive.
Peyos Rocking Note: When my son, Aryeh was eight or so, he said he wanted to grow out his peyos mostl because, I think, many of the boys in his class had done so. My wife was against it. I said: of all of the fights we should choose, this shouldn't be the one. She reluctantly agreed. After a few months, about the time when the peyos were rockin just right, Aryeh came to shul. After a few minutes, my Rov came over to me and recommended that we cut the peyos. He mentioned that since peyos are not my minhag and I don't have them, it is likely just an outward show that the rov didn't think was healthy. When I told my wife, she was thrilled. Since I agreed with the rov, I had to tell my son. The rov knew that Aryeh was sensitive to this so he recommended cutting them after the summer so it wouldn't be a hair one day gone tomorrow thing that all of his peyos rocking friends would pick up on.
Thanks for making me feel old! :)
ReplyDeleteIt's okay, I owed you. :)
I think that perhaps Akiva and I seem to be the most put off by the post not only because we are alter kakers but also because we may be more to the right of things then most of the other commentors.
I figured you'd say that, and while you are of the more right end, there are actually plenty among the commenters who are in the same circle as you. (The advantages of knowing who's who!)
That yeshiva also happens to be a mussar yeshiva and I think that part of my take on the post and the comment thread comes from there.
Funnily enough, that's where I get my side from too. The emphasis on cheshbon hanefesh and internal growth was big in my HS, as you can probably imagine.
To me, it seems more than a little judgmental of those that are choosing to "grow" in ways that are different than the way it seems has been set down here as the "right way" to grow. It seems to say that someone that is taking on more as opposed to perfecteing, so to speak, those things they are already doing is disingenous or trying to show off their frumkeit.
Not at all. I think it was emphasized well that people *should* take on things if they thing that it's best for them; it's the approach that really matters. Is there an anxiousness that leads them to take on more stuff, or are they making genuine self-measurements? One can argue which is more common in general, but in the context of someone asking about a shidduch, for example, the question is more likely about the latter. Regardless, the post was trying to emphasize one side while still showing the validity of the other in the right context.
I also think, especially for BTs, that therre are things that a person is bot yet ready to take on at one point but is ready for later. Ex. wearing a yarmulke to work.
100%.
Another problem that I have with the post is that such an approach often leads to a feeling of "this is as good as I get and that's fine". IMHO, that's not a good place.
Agreed, and that was emphasized as well.
Of course, one has to have self-esteem and take pride and what they have done to become the person that they are right here and right now. But, that does not preclude introspection and self-analysis of areas where growth (there's that word again) is possible and positive.
Absolutely - I think that's what the post was saying. The problem is not with growth at all: It's the assumption that growth requires some kind of large "change" (and often external).
Hehe on the peyos. My SIL in Israel is having a similar issue with her now 11-year old... for a few years now. :)
Neil - Hehe. :)
ReplyDeleteSL - Looking forward!
G - Agree that it's not primarily about the chumra fad; I think it's just an easy example to use.
A/Apple - You're *not* a guy!? Woah, that makes so much more sense. I was wondering why you were wearing women's clothes. Good responses, looking forward to the rest. :)
David: I also have felt that longer peyos are not the biggest deal in the world, but we keep telling our son that when he's older will see what happens.
ReplyDeleteHe, however, has used the "well, Abba, you had crazy hair when you were younger" line as well (and I was pretty impressed with this one)telling me "you call into R Moshe Weinberger's shiurim and always listen to his tapes, and he has peyos." Kids, go figure!
Frumkeit, I observed awhile ago, has unfortunately become more of a competition than an expression of one's actual religiousity and relationship with G-d. Everyone tries to out-frum their neighbors...and if that gets to be less challenging than hoped, they try to out-frum themselves! (Thus the "anxious Judaism" syndrome.) Of course, since it is a competition, appearances count--because how else is one supposed to measure how frum a person is other than by how frum one looks? So people take on halachot and chumrot that make them look more frum, as opposed to working on improving themselves in ways that will actually make them be more frum.
ReplyDelete(Ezzie, are you happy now? I finally added my $.02.)
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