H: So it’s we, the parents and teachers, who are responsible for “kids at risk”?
RH: I don’t think the issue is “kids at risk.” That expression is used because it makes us feel good. It implies that it’s the kids’ fault, that something is wrong with them. The underlying assumption is that the system is okay, just something went wrong with this or that kid who “fell through the cracks.” Really, the opposite is true. They are being pushed through, not cracks, but gaping ditches and huge holes. We have to decide if we’re willing to lose them.
H: You make it sound as if we were making a conscious decision of some kind to send them away…
RH: That’s right. They are lost by design. Our educational system is elitist. It caters to the brightest students. Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students. Those who do not excel academically are offered no option. Everything is stigmatized. To tell a kid to get vocational training is tantamount to calling him mentally retarded. Or in Israel to serve in the army, is like telling him he’s a failure. The kids understand this and feel rejected. They say to themselves, “I don’t see myself in this system, so I’ll find my own way.” They find their way on the streetcorners of Har Nof and Ben Yehuda.
H: How did this elitism come about?
RH: There was a decision made after the Holocaust that Yiddishkeit in the U.S. and Israel has to be rebuilt. And that meant producing gedolim, the next Rabbi Akiva Eiger, the next Brisker Rav. And I’ve heard it said that it was understood, perhaps even stated at the time, that since not everybody is going to be a gadol b’Torah, “we are going to have to lose a few.”
What took place over the next forty years was the rise of an elitist system. When I was growing up and went to school, the teachers would speak to the average student, trying to involve and reach everyone in the class. But in an educational system geared to the elite, the teacher cares primarily about the geniuses, certainly not the slower students.
Tuesday, December 16, 2008
Gedolim Or Bust...
...an interesting interview with Rabbi Yaakov Haber of Congregation Bais Torah in Monsey, NY and Torah Lab about the state of jewish education today, how we got here and were he thinks we need to go:
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Very interesting. (FWIW, Ser's family is close with R' Haber.)
ReplyDeleteNot sure I agree on the term - at-risk kids to me sounds like someone placed them at risk. But I hear...
It caters to the brightest students. Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students.
Was not my experience growing up. The catering was to the average, ignoring the people on either end. But agree very much with the next lines:
Those who do not excel academically are offered no option. Everything is stigmatized. To tell a kid to get vocational training is tantamount to calling him mentally retarded. Or in Israel to serve in the army, is like telling him he’s a failure. The kids understand this and feel rejected.
I'd say that's true not just academically, but socially or even hashkafically.
And I’ve heard it said that it was understood, perhaps even stated at the time, that since not everybody is going to be a gadol b’Torah, “we are going to have to lose a few.”
Go check out the letters between R' Hirsch and R' Dessler from way back when; pretty sure R' Dessler says this, and that's before the war. (Though even R' Dessler's interpretation of this, as demonstrated by his family, is not nearly as extreme.)
There is a problem of elitism at Orthodox schools, but I don't think that's the major factor in kids going OTD. The major factor is all-or-nothing thinking. Either you're 100% Orthodox or you're treated like a "bad" kid.
ReplyDeleteWant to talk to girls and date like a normal teenager? You're a bad kid. Might as well drop out and become a drug addict.
Come to different theological conclusions than the standard Orthodox ones? You kofer. You goy. You're not one of us. Either shut up or get the hell out.
My impression is that the sephardi community is much better at accepting a wide range of beliefs and practices. You're just Jewish. If you drive on shabbos and think gemara is boring, you can still be part of the community.
Orthodox people need to accept that they can't force everybody to fit the same mold. Either you broaden what's allowed or you lose the ones who don't fit. You've got to choose one or the other.
When I hear the term "at risk kids" I wonder what they are at risk of. Is it that they're going to use drugs, drop out of school, not be religious, not be as religious as their parents. Please clarify.
ReplyDelete>And I’ve heard it said that it was understood, perhaps even stated at the time, that since not everybody is going to be a gadol b’Torah, “we are going to have to lose a few.”
ReplyDeleteI believe this was stated earlier than the holocaust by R' Dessler in Mictav M'eliyahu
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ReplyDelete>My impression is that the sephardi community is much better at accepting a wide range of beliefs and practices.
ReplyDeleteMaybe in Israel, and maybe in previous generations. Nowadays, particularly the Persians, they have become "Vus Vusized" since they also rely on the ashkenazi schools
Formerly of beis torah. Not in monsey anymore- he now resides in and runs a yeshivah, in Israel affiliated with R Schneinberg's yeshivah.,
ReplyDeleteWhile there may be some merit to his theory and overall idea, I must take exception with some of the points quoted.
ReplyDelete"Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students."
This is a disgraceful, baseless accusation. I have been in many classrooms (besides my own) and talked with many teachers and it is simply untrue. If there are teachers like this, they are the vast minority. While average students are at a bit of a risk of being overlooked because they seem to be fine generally, the below average students certainly get attention and it isn't all negative -- it's caring and helpfulness. Then you say, well then what about the average ones. First, I think most teachers do not neglect ANY of their students, although their attention does need to be divided and it won't always be equally. Secondly, I believe that the majority of "at-risk" kids do not fall into the average category. They are generally exceptional in some way. We may then say that our system has little accommodation for exceptionality in general, which I would not argue unless you backed it up with stupid statements like the one I just quoted.
"Our educational system is elitist."
Stop blaming education so much. Teachers would love to help the kids who are not academically elite. Most teachers truly value each child's qualities and spend enormous amounts of energy trying to instill self-worth and break down elitist values. It is an uphill battle for those teachers because the elitist mentality is coming at them from all angles in every part of society.
"Everything is stigmatized. To tell a kid to get vocational training is tantamount to calling him mentally retarded."
Why is everything phrased in the negative? I don't think it's so much a matter of stigma. I think Torah learning is valued so highly that it is naturally disappointing to realize that your future will probably be more business-oriented. But I will remove my rose-colored lenses for the purposes of this discussion.
I don't think the problem is in considering vocational training "lesser." It is. We value Torah and respect those who devote their lives to learning it. The problem is that our generation is not able to handle having or being less. This applies in all areas, not just education. You have the people who want to launch massive movements against brand-names so their kids won't feel bad for not being able to afford them. You have dramatic novellas written about the depression that ensues when one is not accepted into the seminary of choice. You have rampant depression, biochemical factors notwithstanding. You can't say "no" to a kid because it might damage them forever.
People have to learn that life was never meant to be "ideal." Life is for growing through challenges. In the distant past, it was accepted that there are different stations of life. YES, we believe that people are not created equal. Some people are Jews, some people are non-Jews. Some people are Kohanim, some people are Yisraelim. Some people are rich, some people are poor. AND SOME PEOPLE ARE ILUYIM, AND SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT.
When we can learn (and subsequently transmit to our children) to accept AND APPRECIATE our unique roles in life, we will be able to stop blaming the "system" and the teachers who don't appreciate us enough and all the rest.
Whoops, I didn't even realize how long I went on. Next time you post something I feel strongly about, I should just write my own post so you can link to it and get me more hits ;-)
ReplyDeleteJA - Only somewhat agreed... definitely in places where it IS all or nothing it's a problem.
ReplyDeleteMommy - Certainly drugs/dropping out. Religious, depends who you're asking; different type of "at risk". Religious as parents, not what we're generally referring to here.
HH, Ser - Thanks.
B~M - :)
I think that the higher the grade, the less correct you are. In younger grades, there's a much better/stronger focus on helping out the kids who are struggling; later on, they're "problem" kids that teachers don't wish to deal with.
I think Torah learning is valued so highly that it is naturally disappointing to realize that your future will probably be more business-oriented.
I do think that's his point.
I don't think the problem is in considering vocational training "lesser." It is. We value Torah and respect those who devote their lives to learning it.
And that IS the point. It essentially creates the "subpar" problem, previously discussed here. (Look up the label. Very worthwhile reads/discussions.)
I do agree on the spoiled generation part.
Jewish Atheist makes a great point, this all-or-nothing syndrome.
ReplyDeleteThey may cater to those who excel academically, but only to those who are a) male and b) excel in Torah studies, not secular pursuits.
ReplyDeleteI say this as a female who got a 1520 on her SAT's, now attends an Ivy league phd program, and almost was kicked out of high school.
The Hebrew classes were bundled in with the English ones, so since I didn't speak Hebrew very well and had little interest in Jewish studies, I ended up in the dumbest of the 4 tracks. For all my classes. Including the Secular ones, that turned out to be way below my level.
And no one ever catered to me, except for maybe 5 minutes after my SAT scores came out. Most of the time I was getting in trouble and having my parents called in because I asked too many questions and that meant I was being "Disrespectful" of my teachers. And that got me labeled the "bad kid". I've heard from friends that I was their "bad friend" in high school. Why? I didn't do drugs, I didn't smoke cigarettes, I didn't drink, I didn't cut class, I didn't hang out on street corners in the middle of the night.
But I had a boyfriend, and I questioned my teachers. By any normal standards I would have been an ideal student. And now people wonder why I'm not religious anymore.
Ari - Only somewhat agreed.
ReplyDeleteAE - I agree it's more common among the males and in Torah studies. But in all my schools, which I think are fairly typical Orthodox schools, those who did well did well in both. Moreover, there were different tracks in Hebrew and English. That a specific school did otherwise seems to be the exception more than the rule.
That said, experiences like that need to be corrected for in all schools.
Hmm, well I guess I'm your exception- I failed or almost failed most of my Hebrew classes (in fact they wouldn't let me graduate until I retook a halacha, chumash and hashkafa final my senior year), and got A's and B's in the secular ones. And at least as long as I was there (late 90's) it was divided up that way, although I suppose they might do it differently now.
ReplyDelete(And I went to a supposedly "Modern" orthodox all-girls school in the NYC area)
I think that that's an exception, unless NYC schools are just horrible (which, if you know me, I don't discount out of hand! :) ).
ReplyDeleteI went to the Hebrew Academy of Cleveland, which is right-leaning Orthodox. We had two tracks for secular studies when I was there starting in 7th grade; when I was in 8th, they sent me to the high school for math. The following year (partly because of what they learned from myself and some friends) they expanded starting from 6th grade to three tracks. My HS in Milwaukee (a Chofetz Chaim branch) had multiple tracks in both Hebrew and general studies. I took Calculus as a freshman, but was in the lower shiur in 10th grade (for laziness).
with all due respect...
ReplyDeleteBut I had a boyfriend, and I questioned my teachers. By any normal standards I would have been an ideal student. And now people wonder why I'm not religious anymore....give me a break
I liked this post, but I still can't stand the implication that those who leave, nebach, aren't smart enough: "Our educational system is elitist. It caters to the brightest students. Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students," as if all it takes to enjoy gemara is brains. Patently ridiculous. Many of us had no problem keeping up with gemara, but we hated learning for other reasons. And we got almost no answers to simple questions such as "why are we learning this?" It may be easier for the educators to just apologize for not condescending to "our level" more often, and I definitely wouldn't expect them to take longer, harder looks at what exactly it is they preach overall. It's really nothing new, but aren't they insulting our intelligence?
ReplyDeleteOTD - but I still can't stand the implication that those who leave, nebach, aren't smart enough: "Our educational system is elitist. It caters to the brightest students. Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students," as if all it takes to enjoy gemara is brains
ReplyDeleteThat's overly picky and stupid. He's not saying this is the only issue, he's talking about a major issue. He's not saying that the only reason people don't succeed is lack of brains. He's addressing one of the bigger problems.
I considered picking on the same point that OTD just did, but then I realized that even though many (most?) of the people who go OTD are in fact very smart, they include many "average and below-average students." School performance often does not reflect intelligence.
ReplyDeleteEden -- I also flunked out everything Hebrew while excelling in English! We never had tracked classes, though. (Oh, and they didn't seem to care about that when it came to graduating -- I think they just wanted to get rid of me by then ;-) )
And I definitely agree that the point in this post applies much more to boys' schools.
Bas Melech: Exactly my point. Intelligence is almost irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteBut I find this to be a common misconception among frum people who prefer to insult my intelligence than to question their beliefs.
B~M and OTD - What I objected to in OTD's comment is that it has nothing to do with R' Haber's comment. He wasn't saying that only stupid people are at-risk, but noting a large flaw in the academic system. You can see my comment (#1) which makes a similar contention without twisting R' Haber to be saying something he is not.
ReplyDeleteEzzie:
ReplyDeleteI guess I have nothing to argue about with you then. As long as you agree that that's only a small part of the problem, and there are lots of other, big ones. Again, I find that many frum people like to hide behind only that reason, and ignore all the others, but you're not doing that.
Besides, I'm not all that great at debates.
Yeah, any honest look at the subject has to take account for the significant group of OTDers from the top of their classes. There are a ton of us smart folks who left for intellectual reasons.
ReplyDeleteJA - Smart people also have a harder time with authority (any kind), are more likely to have trouble accepting solutions which work for the majority but are not perfect, and more. They tend to react poorly to school in general unless it's one that caters to people like them. That has little to do with religion, though they'll run into more issues in religious schools for a variety of reasons.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna have to agree with OTD and JA. I really don't think the problem is "catering to the brightest", at least not in my experience. Rather the problem is the "all-or-nothing thinking" JA mentions.
ReplyDeleteI went to a Lubavitch high school and two years of Yeshiva and I did very well academically in both secular and religious studies (no secular studies in Yeshiva). Now I am an atheist in a PhD program in a very prestigious university.
Recently I visited my old shul on shabbos and had a long conversation with one of my chassidus teachers from high school. He couldn't understand how I could have ended up going off the derech when I was "such a good student." He seemed to believe that anyone who doesn't agree with his way of life must be stupid, and he just couldn't fathom that a smart person could disagree with him.
The real problem with orthodoxy is a lack of critical thinking, not "elitism."
I don't understand why ostensibly bright people seem to think that what happened to them is the most common cause. I also don't understand this terming of "the reason" when it is clear there are multiple causes.
ReplyDeleteR' Haber's comment was clearly targeting A major issue that seems to be the cause of much of the "at-risk" youth. By your own testimonials, y'all weren't "at-risk" - bright students who did well. It doesn't sound like you were doing drugs or hanging out with bad crowds.
If you read the whole interview, R' Haber is focusing on one broad problem and all that includes. He wasn't even focused only on people who go "OTD". He also says pretty clearly at the end that we need to create options without stigmas, which is rather similar in concept. I don't think anyone disagrees on this blog that an "all or nothing" approach is not a good one.
While I won't comment on the original post's conclusion that the elitism of the orthodox school systems leads to "off the derech"/"at risk", I have been discussing the elitist attitudes of the schools for a very long time.
ReplyDeleteI have sent five boys through Torah Institute of Baltimore, and I have always been critical of their attitude to the boys of trying to make them the next "Godol". Perhaps it is my Chabad (albeit BT) attitudes, but shouldn't we be focusing on producing frum menschen, and let the potential godolim rise to the top?
I have a boy who excelled at both torah and secular studies, but who socially didn't fit in. He is now in the Yeshiva School of Pittsburgh (for his second year at age 15).
I have two boys who have excelled at secular studies, but fell far behind in torah studies. One now has smicha and is working in a photography studio. The other is in Talmudical Academy of Baltimore, which is slightly better about understanding that some boys are not going to be able to handle the torah studies. Unfortunately, we are having the "at risk" problems with him right now. At 16 his hormones are raging, and he is friendly, helpful and warm to us one minute and antagonistic, lazy, and cold to us another. (Ahhhh, the teenage years.)
I have two boys who did poorly at both. One is nineteen who works occasionally at a waiter and is currently in a drug abuse counseling class (as a judgement for possession). The other (at 14) is in Yeshiva Doresh in Miami, where they specifically cater to boys who did poorly academically, but are not behavioral problems. They try to instill a love of learning at the level of the boy.
In each case where my boys could not keep up, the answer the school gave was to hire tutors. So, in essence, I was forced to have double tuition... One for the school, and one for the tutor.
No one at the school was willing to bend at all in creating a class that instilled a good "feeling" for yiddishkeit while attempting to have the boys learn at their level.
Izzy - I think that sums it up very well, great comment.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I've waited so long to comment. I don't know how much of the post or the comments I agree with.
ReplyDeleteAmong two of the obesrvations that Rabbi Horowitz has made, two are relevant here. One is that when he was a teenager he was at-risk. The second is that the attrition rate in the Frum world is 12%. (I'm working from memory. The exact statements are a bit different, but what I've brought down here, are the gist of each.)
As to the first, I don't think that means that Rabbi Horowitz was at-risk when he was in high school. More likely he means that by today's standards, he'd be considered at-risk. I know that if there was someone like me, in my sons' classes, I'd be wary of my sons' friendships with that classmate. But I also know that a lot has changed in 30 years and what was acceptable or common then, is not as (openly) acceptable or common now.
I would like to know more about the attrition rate then. Is the attrition rate higher now than it was 30 years ago? If it is, then there's a basis for arguing that the demands nowadays are a cause of alienation. If it isn't then I don't think the argument holds water. I have no idea if anyone measured attrition rates of the past, so I'm not certain that anyone can draw a conclusion for certain.
What I do remember is that one Motzei Shabbos, the summer after my brother graduated from a mainstream Yeshiva high school, I saw eight of his classmates. Out of those eight seven were not wearing kippas. (Since then, I believe that all eight went to Yeshivas and all are Shomer Shabbos - ranging from modern to very chareidi.) I was shocked.
While I'm not entirely happy with the "Gedolim or bust ..." approach, I don't know that it can be tied to "at-risk" kids. Perhaps those who leave frumkeit, would have done so anyway even in a less demanding environment and the extra strictures speed up the process but don't necessarily increase the phenomenon.
What Rabbi Haber says makes sense on a superficial level, but I'm not convinced the "Gedolim or bust ..." and "at risk" phenomena are necessarily related.