A few interesting reads for a cold Monday morning:
Check it out.
- Scraps has a really good post on the advantages of going to a small shul.
- Meryl notes the findings by the World Health Organization that Israeli kids are more stressed, then blasts their reasoning for why.
- RafiG writes that R' Elyashiv and others have allowed people to take part in the new Israeli-government sponsored census, noting its usefulness. He also notes that the article (para. 5, in Hebrew) has an interesting paragraph that it was on the condition that the statistics not be reported to places such as the tax authority. That seems strange to him, and to myself...
- It's an odd day when both R' Gil and BeyondBT have posts about Facebook. Gil also discusses his blog's policy on heretical discussion, which is pretty much a good guide in how to approach discussion about Judaism and the community in general, in my opinion.
I haven't read all of the articles yet but I do want to comment on the one about Israeli children's stress. I'd have to disagree with Meryl and agree more with WHO in this case. My children do not think about terrorism. They grow up in a country that deal with terror attacks on a regular basis yet I can assure you that it does not cause stress in their lives. I think I can say the same for most children, unless c"v someone in their family has unfortunately been hurt by terror.
ReplyDeleteWhat WHO is saying is true, unfortunately. Israelis approach chinuch in a completely different way than Americans. Parenting is done in a very hands-off type of approach. Kids spend lots of time on the streets with no parental supervision and are often left to fend for themselves for long periods of time. A few examples: There was a 4 year old in my son's gan who would come home to an empty house every day because both of his parents were at work. He carried a key around his neck and learned how to operate the microwave so he could make himself lunch. He would then watch TV until his mother got home, around an hour after he did. I also know many parents who go out at night and leave their kids alone sleeping in the house. I personally got a ride to the shuk recently with a couple who had left their 2 year old home alone at night. They didnt understand why I thought that was unsafe. I could go on and on.
Sometimes the parent is physically present but they often have no authority over their children. Unfortunately I see this with my neighbors all the time. And I'm sure that all of this does have an effect on the children's level of stress. Children need supervision and clear boundaries and they are sorely lacking both in many cases.
Gil also discusses his blog's policy on heretical discussion, which is pretty much a good guide in how to approach discussion about Judaism and the community in general, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI can't fathom how intelligent people could believe that it's a good thing to limit "heresy." The response to a bad argument is a good argument, not censorship. If Orthodox Judaism were true, it'd be able to defend itself and not have to hide from opposing viewpoints.
I can't fathom how intelligent people could believe that it's a good thing to limit "heresy." The response to a bad argument is a good argument, not censorship. If Orthodox Judaism were true, it'd be able to defend itself and not have to hide from opposing viewpoints.
ReplyDeleteI hear what you're saying (heck, I probably even agree for the most part)- however for the sake of argument, there is also the idea of not being able to un-ring the bell. You can disprove something 100% but the very fact that the discussion was had has brought the other idea into the realm of "possiblity". Do that enough times and the "wrongness" or "incorrectness" starts to dissipate.
G:
ReplyDeleteI'll return the favor and kind of agree with your point. :-) George Lakoff has written about how hearing a negated idea still gets that (un-negated) idea into people's heads. But Gil doesn't purport to be a propagandist, which is what one who consistently censors one point of view is, but a rational, intellectual blogger. Nobody's forcing him to talk about these controversial (to Orthodox people) topics, but to raise them and then censor the other side is dishonest.
Meaning, don't talk about it if you don't want to talk about it - but don't talk about it and then talk about not wanting to talk about the parts of what you're talking about that people may want to talk about...because you don't want to talk about that.
ReplyDeleteI hear.
Israeli Mom - I'm going to both agree and disagree with you at the same time, even if it seems I'm contradicting myself. I probably should write this in a post, but here goes:
ReplyDeleteI've heard and witnessed this argument countless times: They grow up in a country that deal with terror attacks on a regular basis yet I can assure you that it does not cause stress in their lives. I think I can say the same for most children, unless c"v someone in their family has unfortunately been hurt by terror. I don't quite think it's true. It's true from the perspective of a family living there, and it was true for me while there (01-03, when attacks were at their highest). Overall, you barely felt impacted. It didn't seem to add stress. But at the same time, when I'm not in that situation, I don't have to worry/think about things when I walk down the street or onto a bus. It becomes so normal to someone who is living in it that you don't realize it's an added stress. It's like - l'havdil! - living in NYC vs. living anywhere else. There certainly is an added stress, even if it's not a conscious one.
Furthermore, we're at the point where "everyone knows someone who was in an attack" in many areas. It doesn't need to have been a family member to have an effect.
That is not to say that those types of examples aren't problematic (and crazy). Poor parenting is a problem. I'm not sure that those are necessarily stressful, either - I'd think that those change how a kid acts, not how they feel, more. I'd think that running to shelters in places like Sderot or hearing occasional gunfire (as I did in certain places in Yesha), or knowing that within a couple miles are many people who might wish you dead would be more stressful.
I'd also note that there are far too many similar parents in the USA to the ones you described.
JA - To cap G's first comment, just see this post. It's along similar lines: Here.
ReplyDeleteNow, not that it'll add much, but just to say it:
ReplyDeleteThe response to a bad argument is a good argument, not censorship.
Depends how bad the argument is. More importantly, it has less to do with Bad/Good and more to do with what is out of the realm of the discussion and/or how relevant it is.
A quick sports example: Let's say two guys are discussing who was a better pitcher, and they're comparing their ERAs, W-L records, and how many strikeouts they have. It might be relevant for a person to note that Wins are a poor measure, but it would be less likely to be relevant if someone would bring in their respective infields' range factor - *even* if the person might argue that it could be relevant.
If Orthodox Judaism were true, it'd be able to defend itself and not have to hide from opposing viewpoints.
Being able to and feeling like one has to are not the same.
George Lakoff has written about how hearing a negated idea still gets that (un-negated) idea into people's heads.
ReplyDeleteYup.
Nobody's forcing him to talk about these controversial (to Orthodox people) topics, but to raise them and then censor the other side is dishonest.
I think you misrepresent that a bit. He's willing to discuss things within a certain range of differing opinions, but beyond that he is rejecting off the bat.
It's worthwhile to read the whole post he wrote, actually, you may find yourself in agreement with it at the end. :)
I hear.
ReplyDeleteI hear, but not necessarily. As stated just above. :)
Ezzie--I agree with you that during times of extreme tension, there is added stress. We don't live in Sderot but we do live close to the northern border and know what it's like to spend weeks in the miklat while hearing rockets exploding every few minutes. Yes, that was stressful for all of us, adults included. But that lasted a month and it was over. The stress did linger for a few more weeks--I remember jumping every time a door slammed--but eventually that wore off too. Right now, when things are relatively calm, IU really don't think there is added stress in my kids' lives due to terror. We don't live in Yerushalayim or any of the other major target areas. We live in a beautiful, very quiet city up north where when someone honks their horn, everyone goes outside to see what happened. The atmosphere here is very calming and peaceful. We take buses without batting an eyelash and go to malls all the time without worrying about attacks. I think it's fair to say that even subconsciously, we're not looking out for dangerous situations. I've been back to the US several times since we moved here and I don't recall feeling any release of stress while we were there. But then, I was in NYC so maybe that doesn't count. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI do agree that during stressful times, whether it's an actual war or intifada, there is added stress, especially in the targeted places. I just don't think I would expand that to all of Israel all of the time.
Oh, and I also want to add that though there are unfortunately parents like the ones I've mentioned in the US too, I don't think you can compare the situation there to the situation here. Here I'm considered an "Ima tarnigolet" because I don't let my kids cross the street before age 9. Many of their 5 year old friends cross alone. Here, normal parenting is unfortunately the exception, not the norm. I believe that in the US, cases like the ones I've mentioned are still the exception.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that such parenting affects how the child acts but I'm convinced that lack of authority also causes stress. I believe that my children are calmer and more self-confident because they know that they have parents who take care of them, make normal rules, and enforce them. They know what to expect and that their needs will be taken care of. Kids that raise themselves don't have that stability and I'm sure it affects both their emotions and their behavior.
But then, I was in NYC so maybe that doesn't count. ;-)
ReplyDeleteLOL probably not. :)
I hear you on the differentiation between different times, but I'd assume that the study is not so much of a point in time one but one over time, in which case things like attacks and bombings - even if rare - will not only show up in the results, but does have an overall effect.
Here, normal parenting is unfortunately the exception, not the norm. I believe that in the US, cases like the ones I've mentioned are still the exception.
ReplyDeleteNormal is such a relative term... :P
For example, I was walking to school well ahead of my sister by 6, I believe, and was crossing streets probably around the same time. I'm also curious on the ages of the study; while your approach might cause less stress for a child, I've found that Israelis tend to be far more independent (and therefore less likely to stress out about many things) when they are teens. Is this because they're forced when younger to do so on their own? Maybe.
{Personally, I push for reasonable independence for kids, though of course with the caveat that every kid is different.}
G:
ReplyDeleteMeaning, don't talk about it if you don't want to talk about it - but don't talk about it and then talk about not wanting to talk about the parts of what you're talking about that people may want to talk about...because you don't want to talk about that.
Exactly.
Ezzie:
I think you misrepresent that a bit. He's willing to discuss things within a certain range of differing opinions, but beyond that he is rejecting off the bat.
That's what I'm complaining about. He'll specifically raise a topic -- e.g. did the Exodus happen -- and then delete any comments which argue that it didn't! It's a ludicrous way to have a discussion.
Nobody's saying he has to talk about anything or not talk about anything, but if you raise a subject (let's say Biblical authorship) and someone writes a comment which merely summarizes the mainstream view of experts on the topic, it's ridiculous to delete that comment and then pretend that you have any interest at all in having a conversation.
That's what I'm complaining about.
ReplyDeleteI know. :)
Again, I can hear both sides of that. Depends how far he wants to extend the range or not.
but if you raise a subject (let's say Biblical authorship)
OTOH, when Gil raises anything in the Torah's meaning, people will always bring in authorship into the equation when he clearly doesn't mean to include those views. He's asking within the range that believe it to be a certain way.
and someone writes a comment which merely summarizes the mainstream view of experts on the topic
Note that your emphasis there pretty much proves the point I was making from the link above. :) It's a clear attempt to move the mainstream toward a specific viewpoint (whether it's true or not).
Jewish Atheist: Hirhurim is NOT and has never pretended to be a place where atheists and skeptics can feel free to proselytize. It is intended to be a place for Orthodox discussion, but where the non-Orthodox are welcome if they behave respectfully.
ReplyDeleteWhen skeptics come and dominate discussions by posting skeptical comments incessantly they are undermining the very purpose of the discussion area. If you want to filibuster, do it on your own blog.
Respectful non-Orthodox comments are NOT deleted, nor are respectful challenges to Judaism. Just don't ruin the environment for everyone else there by turning it into the non-stop free-for-all you are used to at other blogs.
They're at it again-
ReplyDeleteThe BIG ban of the LITTLE event.
http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=2575
GS:
ReplyDeleteIt is intended to be a place for Orthodox discussion, but where the non-Orthodox are welcome if they behave respectfully.
Your actions do not live up to your words. I have written perfectly respectful comments that you have deleted. Yes, sometimes you have done so after many comments, but you've also deleted my first comment so often that I gave up even trying.
What drives me crazy is you are about as open-minded as it gets out there among Orthodox rabbis, and yet you can't allow respectful intellectual discussion outside the boundaries of Orthodoxy. Don't pretend it's about respectfulness when it's about censorship. You believe halakha requires censorship of kefira? Fine, then say so, and don't try to sell us on this "respectfulness" idea. At least be honest about that. And when you delete comments, you don't generally leave a marking indicating that you have done so, so you create a (deliberately?) misleading appearance of consensus which does not exist.
One other point. Do you think those who are on the fence don't notice this? That they don't see that the skeptic blogs are full of comments ranging from the most hardened atheist to the most traditionally Orthodox while the Orthodox ones feel it necessary to censor entire (again, I stress it) mainstream points of view? Practically the entire non-Orthodox scholarly world recognizes the DH as the most probable origin of the chumash and yet we can't even discuss it with one of the few Orthodox rabbis open-minded enough to even have a blog.
What if I'd had a rabbi willing to honestly debate these issues with me when I was a teen? I doubt they could have convinced me, but that's because I really think OJ is false. But if I'm wrong and OJ really could win on the merits, shouldn't you guys be trying to convince us?
But you don't even try. You'll make an argument but not allow it to be challenged. You'll be evasive and disingenuous and tell us one thing in private and say something else in public. The whole enterprise just reeks of intellectual dishonesty.
Are you even honest about your own views? Is what you believe in your heart identical to what you'll write on your blog? Or do you censor even yourself, as I suspect?
Gil - Thanks.
ReplyDeleteJA - I think you missed the point. Gil said: It is intended to be a place for Orthodox discussion, yet you counter with and yet you can't allow respectful intellectual discussion outside the boundaries of Orthodoxy.
Being respectful does not mean a person needs to cater to every opinion, particularly ones outside the range he wishes to discuss, especially if he believes them to be false and/or a waste of time and/or irrelevant to the discussion which is within a certain framework.
JA: You can say it but that doesn't make it true. Maybe you just don't recognize your own ability to dominate a discussion and repeat the same point over and over.
ReplyDeleteAs to your point about censoring mainstream views, I have no idea what you are talking about.
None of these arguments are won on merits. It's said but true. They are mainly never-ending, and therefore time-draining and exhausting. Personally, I'm just bored with these arguments. They were great for a few years but it's the same thing over and over again.
Israeli Mom: I have to disagree with you. While we learn to live with and around the whole terrorism thing, leave the country for a week and go someplace where you really aren't scared of being targeted as a Jew, and you'll see that there's a certain de-compression that occurs.
ReplyDeleteAdd in the fact that drivers are a whole separate flavor of terrorism that we experience in Israel pretty much daily...
Yes, the laissez-faire version of parenting that I see often is upsetting to me. I also wonder if children in Israel are more stressed because many are sleep-deprived... (I've never seen an American parent think it was ok for their 2-year-old to have an 11pm bedtime).
I just don't think it's fair to write off the fact that you have segments of the population that are dealing with frequent missile attacks, the (new?) threat of the people on construction sites suddenly turning their heavy machinery on you...
I remember when I was a kid, my big fear was being stabbed in the back by an Arab. (the wonderful, glorious 80's) Once, there was an Arab standing behind me on a bus. My own hair brushed my back and I almost screamed.
also wifey as bronchitis- but is NOT at home- instead isat work:((((( and very tired!
ReplyDeletetriLcat--I don't disagree with you. I think my comment was largely based on the specific city that we live in and the situation here. To illustrate that, on the rare occasions that we travel to Yerushalayim or other major cities, I definitely do sense an increase in stress level. In the 12 years that we've lived in this city, I don't think I've ever even seen a bulldozer. So I agree with you that in many places, the threat of terror does have an impact, though not necessarily everywhere and at all times.
ReplyDeleteYeah, sleep deprivation probably is a factor too. My older kids are always telling me that they go to bed the earliest in their classes--most of their friends go to bed at 10. My neighbor told me that she goes to bed at 11 and her 3 elementary school sons all stay up way later than her. You're probably right that that does affect their stress level too.
Serach and Elianna--Refuah shelaima!
triLcat--I don't disagree with you. I think my comment was largely based on the specific city that we live in and the situation here. To illustrate that, on the rare occasions that we travel to Yerushalayim or other major cities, I definitely do sense an increase in stress level. In the 12 years that we've lived in this city, I don't think I've ever even seen a bulldozer. So I agree with you that in many places, the threat of terror does have an impact, though not necessarily everywhere and at all times.
ReplyDeleteYeah, sleep deprivation probably is a factor too. My older kids are always telling me that they go to bed the earliest in their classes--most of their friends go to bed at 10. My neighbor told me that she goes to bed at 11 and her 3 elementary school sons all stay up way later than her. You're probably right that that does affect their stress level too.
Serach and Elianna--Refuah shelaima!