...at the moment to comment on this post. Both because I am too stunned/awed/terrified by its content/position/attitude right now to respond cogently and because it IS just days before the Yemei Din and frankly I can't decide on which side of the ledger anything I might put together would end up falling (although I asssume the second barrier will pass before too long ...which is a good thing because who am I kidding here, I know exactly what side it will fall).
I simply present it for your examination: Voice From The Wilderness (aka FKM) on pictures of women in chareidi publications.
I think people don't understand what it means to be Tzanua
ReplyDeleteHey I actually wrote about this from a semi-serious mostly unserious perspective. How could charedim vote for sarah palin if she doesn't dress tznius? Palin is way hotter then Livni- post.
ReplyDeletePosted this over at FKM and am reposting here based on the comments there and in just about EVERY stupid chareidi bashing post endlessly circulating on blogosphere lately. Readn and enjoy. FEEL FREE TO BASH. I'm in the mood.
ReplyDeleteI have to say I agree with probably all of her reasoning here. I honestly think most people on the blogosphere take issue with anything like this WAAAAAAAAAY too often- it seems like all we like t do is complain and complain about others, what others do, what others think, how others are wrong- them them them them. Why don't we ever take a good look at ourselves? Why don't we have about fifty posts a week all over blogosphere denouncing our faults and our irrationality and our inconsistencies and flaws? Why is it that we don't ever take the time to comment about the awful things that we do? Why is it that it is always others who are more religious than us who get the rap? What I am saying now obviously doesn't hold true for everyone at every time, and certainly there is some level of truth to some of our arguements and it is perfectly accepatable to debate and nitpick over idelogical issues. But honestly, what the * is wrong with us that time after time we bash and slam anyone "frummer" than us? Are we so insecure? Do we have such an inferiority complex? Why are we so veangeful and inaccepting when it comes to a practice or policy that is "more religious"? Why are we so- simply put- *hateful*??? We complain about the lack of unity in klal Yisrael. I hate to break it to you, people, but we who stand on our soapbox and preach about extremism and splits in klal Yisrael and the like have to take a good honest look at ourselves and see whre *WE'RE* going wrong. It's easy to bash so called "chareidim," although frankly, I think that by now the word has only served to create an alien like image and is REALLY in the spirit of brotherly love, fellas, because there are SO FEW OF THEM ON THE WEB (or at least, in the blogs that we frequent- don't go quoting YWN or VIN now). We college eduacted people, we people who interact with the outside world, we people who watch movies, have TV's, follow sports, read People magazine, know all the names of the latest movie stars- WHY THE HECK ARE WE PROUD OF IT??? I come from that world, ok? I do that stuff too. I watch movies. I read books. I know (something) about movie stars. But you know something? I don't put down someone who doesn't want that in his life. I don't denigrate and mock someone who would rather his kids know all the names of our great Torah scholars than the Top Twenty Pop songs! Live, and let live. Why won't you let them be passionate about something which is hopefully the most important thing in our lives? Why won't we let them stand firm on their beliefs and choose the lifestyle they want to live? Stop spouting all that BS about the dangers of extremism and the negative influunces the poor kids are growing up under. Listen- I don't want to raise my kids chareidi either. I will be perfectly pleased if my kids study Rambam, Mishneh, Torah, Nevi'im, Kesubim, and commentaries out on a farm on the Midwest somewhere milking cows all day. You want to go to California, wear long hair, and surf every day? No problem, so long as you're Oved Hashem in your way and doing the best you can. But you know what? If one of my kids - ~voice dripping sarcasm here~ GOD FORBID becomes Chareidi, GEZUNTEHEIT!!! When it comes to accepting the aforementioned beach dude with hair down to his waist and a yarmulke knitted of all seven colors of the rainbow, we react with instant respect, tolerance, and acceptance. But if a guy wants to- horrors!- wear a black hat and jacket and send his kids to Shabbos Pirkei Avos instead of having the kids play hockey in the streets, then there is absolutely NO cause for his "extremism" and "narrow-mindedness." Our hypocrisy is so overwhelming it REEKS. It reeks to the high heavens and smacks of PURE, UNADULTERATED, ***SINAS CHINAM.*** I am sure this scent is just making Hashem SOOOOO happy. Doubtlessly there are many valid points raised in out dicussions. Doubtlessly not all of us are guilty of the unconscious complex I discussed here. Yet half the time when we discuss a certain issue or detail fitting into this picture, we focus on the details and miss the POINT. (and a perfect example, pardon me for being specific, is ProfK's self-admitted "nitpicking" in the spelling of a word written over by, pardon, one of our own bloggers. PUH-LEEZ! What was the point of that? To point out how intelligent and well-educated we are because we can pick up on one spelling error in the whole of a lenghty discussion and pounce upon it like a shark who smells blood?) Where is our TOLERANCE? Where is out ACCEPTANCE? Where is our belief in the Torah tenent, "Shiv'im Panim L'Torah???" Or it is only OUR PAnim which is legitimate?
It's a couple of days before Yom Kippur, folks. I don't know about you, but I personally would prefer to go up there before Hashem with as little against my record as possible. I have plenty to be embarrassed of as it is, I don't need sinas chinam on my list.
Wishing you all the best,
your normally mild-mannered and uncontroversial blogger.
Mindy
I have neither the time, the inclination, nor the patience to repeat my comment from a previous post...just go back and read it again.
ReplyDeleteThere are so many straw men populating that commnet of yours I lost count but assume that you were attempting to make a point in there somewhere.
The upshot - if you honestly think that every issue you raised cannot be turned on its head and used quite pointedly in the opposite religious/communal direction you are flat out blind...either culturally, familialy or willingly I don't know nor care.
I have said it once, will say it again and will continue saying it until people stop missing the point, changing the subject, changing the argument or changing the facts:
Yiddishkeit is a lifestyle not a life sentance.
Do your thing - find your path and be happy. Please, allow others to do the same.
--read your comment again and think, really THINK about where most of the problems you raise lie. If you do that and still feel that one sect is clearly in the right the other in the wrong and that bye and large that system holds true...well, then I don't really have anything left to say to you.
Enjoy life as a leming
G- This isn't worth posting if you don't have the time to respond but I'll try-
ReplyDeleteStraw men. Hmm. I'd be happy if you pointed them out to me, honestly, because I don't understand how I employed that technique. Are you saying that I missed *your* point and went for the larger picture insetad of focusng on this specific issue? Well, that was my intent. I didn't want to get into the specifics of this issue. I wanted to point out what I think is a problem in our attitude a lot of the time.
Second point- aaaaaaahh what did you mean by that? Which issues? Blind stab- if you mean that the frummer communities should be tolerant of us who don't subscribe to the Chumra of the Week club, then of course. That doesn't even need to be state. I just thought the other side needed some airing for once.
Re last paragraph- I never said I thought one sect was more in the right than the other. In fact, that's exactly the opposite of what I think. Of course I'm young and I can't claim to be all-knowledgeable, but I specifically believe that everyopne is allowed to choose the lifestlye they want. I don't think one path is more right than the other. I think everyone has to know for themselves what their right and wrong is and what their obligatons and restrictions should be.
Life as a leming? Eh- if you mean lemele, not really.
I hope I understood wht you were saying. If not, please correct me.
However, I am asking you- putting aside the idea that you have that all people who make chumras demand that everyone follow them and hold in contept all those who don't, which I don't think holds true all the time, do you or do you not agree that people have a right to be "frummer" than you???
I personally object to the idea that someone who keeps more chumrahs is somehow "frummer" than someone who does not.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Ezzie. I think that is an innaccuracy as well. That was why I put "frummer" in quotes. I was using it for the purposes of this discussion, but actually, the way you put it is better. So G- do people have a right to keep more chumras or not? But this arguement is getting repetitive. We discussed this already in a previous post about music, and you said that you can do whatever you want, just don't force it on anyone. So we agree.
ReplyDeleteWhat I was saying is that we unfairly jump on people who want to keep more chumras. In the case of the music committee, they were trying to enforce their sensitivities on others. Here they just want to run their newspaper the way they see fit. What is wrong with that? Is that not a legitimate right? There is enough room in klal Yisrael for more than one newspaper.
Who said anything about a newspaper?
ReplyDeleteI posted on a point of view put forth on another site.
When did I ever say that "all people who make chumras demand that everyone follow them and hold in contept all those who don't,"?
ReplyDeleteThis is part of the problem.
Nuance, people, nuance!
I almost never talk in broad generalities, and certainly not to attribute them to particular people(s).
Re: Chumra
ReplyDeleteIt depends on what it is and how it is presented.
No, one does not have the "right" to simply make things up and call it yiddishkeit.
"I think that is an innaccuracy as well. That was why I put "frummer" in quotes"
ReplyDeleteOkay, so if they are not being "frummer" then what are they being?
GAAAAAA too many points to reply to.
ReplyDelete-a- Newspaper. FKM posted about Hamodia Israel not putting pictures of women or writing their first name. This generated the discussion.
-b- Fine. But obviosly you claim some people do and to this you object. Continue to next point.
-c- I don't think you could say all chumras are made up. I think some are, and some have validity. In what sense? In your personal path to growth, a step you feel in sync with. Do people have a right to impose them on other people and pass them off as essentials as opposed to details? No. And I think we agreed on that already.
What I was commenting on is that this newspaper decides to go according to what it feels proper. It's not forcing you to buy the newspaper. It's not putting out pashkeveilin all over town disclaiming the horrors of printing women's names in newspapers. It's not gathering any asifas or holding any lectures or ANYTHING. It's just printing its newspaper the way it sees fit, in its own unobtrsuive way. You buy into that notion? Buy the newspaper. You don't. SO DON'T. Why did everyone get all heated up when these people have a right to publish their newspaper in whatever way they please? It isn't harming anyone. Maybe you're not guilty of this, but what I was saying was that we seem to be getting all defensive when it comes to people being "frummer" than us. The negative aspects of chumra parties and their subsequent enforcements have already been discussed. Believe me, I agree with you. As a girl who has always stood up up for herself and been on the other side of the arguement, believe me, I KNOW!! I know how disastous it can be when people take chumras to be Lavs and Aseis and miss the whole point. But I think that at least SOME of the time we are jumping ontp the bandwagon and criticising actions which have no such outcomes.
Do you see what I'm saying or do you not see what I'm saying???
"Frummer." Unfortunately, the word frum today has taken the connotation of "more religious", "more devout." Since we are not God and do not know how hard a person has worked to reach where he is etc, the phrase is practically meaningless. But we do need some way of defining external measures of Judaism. I will not say that a person who lives al pi Torah is better than a person who doesn't, but we will say he's frummer. We gotta use something. I don't use the expressions in my personal life, but always have to explain or excuse myself when I talk about these topics.
I think even the few points you'd made earlier in the comment were knocked away by the last paragraph, Mindy.
ReplyDeleteOy what did I say?
ReplyDeleteA. If I wanted to post on that issue I would have linked to the J-Post article. I wantd to post on the attitude/thought process contained in his post, and so I linked to his post.
ReplyDeleteB. Correct and correct.
C. Again, I never said 'all' and specifically stated that it depends.
- Now, if you insist on discussing the paper issue...Does it particularly bother me? No, it does not. Do I understand why it bothers others? Yes, I do. It does bec it is putting forth a picture of Judaism, if you will, that many feel is not accurate and it bothers them.
Now, is that any different than when those on the right get vocal about things that they feel are not true to Judaism, not really. In that sense both sides are very much alike.
I will leave the 'frummer' dialogue to Ez as I this is w/o a doubt NOT the time of year for me to get into this with you or anybody else.
I will close with this:
To say that people just "get defensive" as a reflex to others being 'frummer' than they are is complete and total garbage.
Nobody gets defensive of the person who is devoted to Torah and Mitzvot day in and day out. Nobody gets defensive about the person seriously sitting over a Gemorah for the majority of the day. Nobody gets defensive over the person who spends their day doing chessed. Nobody gets defensive about one who commits themselves more fully to God.
Again, nuance is king, examine why, when and were you observe this 'defensiveness' and you will be that much closer to understanding what the real issue is.
And, if you so desire, you did not answer this question:
ReplyDelete"I think that is an innaccuracy as well. That was why I put "frummer" in quotes"
Okay, so if they are not being "frummer" then what are they being?
G- very well said.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your assessment of getting vocal etc.
I wouldn't say that no one gets defensive, or that defensiveness isn't there in some degree in some people at some times. Nothing is ever black and white. I think it exists at least some of the time.
And I think I answered the last question- I will report it.
~~Frummer." Unfortunately, the word frum today has taken the connotation of "more religious", "more devout." Since we are not God and do not know how hard a person has worked to reach where he is etc, the phrase is practically meaningless. But we do need some way of defining external measures of Judaism. I will not say that a person who lives al pi Torah is better than a person who doesn't, but we will say he's frummer. We gotta use something. I don't use the expressions in my personal life, but always have to explain or excuse myself when I talk about these topics.~~
Tell me if that explains my perspective.
I wouldn't say that no one gets defensive, or that defensiveness isn't there in some degree in some people at some times. Nothing is ever black and white. I think it exists at least some of the time.
ReplyDeleteAgain(!), I never said there is no 'defensiveness' going on. My last statement clearly says that it does go on sometimes. I only asked you to examine more closely the instances where you view it to better understand what the issue is. Perhaps what you simply view as 'reflex defensiveness' to anything 'frummer' is not as simple as you think.
If it doesn't go on in the stated examples and things that are of that like, the when DOES it happen and what are the differences in those cases?
I'm confused.
ReplyDeleteYou said peolpe are being 'frummer'
Ezzie objected to that attestment
You said 'frummer' was innacurate for what said people are being
I asked you to then explain what it is they ARE being
You said they are being 'frummer'
So...which is it? What do you really believe?
What do I believe? I believe that as a human I am limited in my perspective and only see the externals of a person's observance. How hard they work on their Avodas Hashem is not for my mind.
ReplyDeleteHow would you answer that question?
Firat of all I cannot believe that I missed this the firsy time around:
ReplyDeleteBut we do need some way of defining external measures of Judaism.
--Really? Why?
I have no idea how what you wrote answeres my question: I asked that if they are not being "frummer" then what are they being? What do you believe in terms of that question. Do you think they are being frummer or don;t you, and if not then what are they being?
I am limited in my perspective and only see the externals of a person's observance. How hard they work on their Avodas Hashem is not for my mind.
Exactly correct, we all have this same limitation. So then there are a few ways to handle this. A. to assume everyone is doing the best they can B. to assume everyone is trying to get away with the least possible C. to assume nothing at all about others and worry about yourself (and hope others do the same) D. to totally focus on what people do (ALL people) and never mind what is going on inside because nobody knows that anyway so who cares, just make sure you make the outside look 'right' at all costs...oh, and since that is what you deem valuable make sure that everyone else does as well and acts in whatever outside way you have deemed to be the most correct and all other variables be damned.
How would you answer that question?
--what question
"Do I think they're being frummer".
ReplyDeleteI answered that already. How am I supposed to know.
How would you answer that very question.
Good four ways. That should be magnified and hung in large all over Brooklyn. (NUMBER ONE ADVANTAGE OF BEING IN ISRAEL. Whoo Hoo!)
So in your opinion they're being 'something', you just don't know what?
ReplyDeleteOr their actions would certainly allow for them to be seen as being 'frummer' but since you don't know their true selves you just can't say (but if you could say with certainty then it wouldn't even be a question - they would be 'frummer')?
Now - as to Do I think they're being frummer...define 'frummer'
-------------
But we do need some way of defining external measures of Judaism.
--Really? Why?
OOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKK I didn't say ANNNNNNNYYYYTTTTTTHHHHHIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG
ReplyDeleteChatasi Avisi Pashasi I said NOTHING you hear me NOTHING I'm down on my knees I said NOTHING I've repented it was over two whole MONTHS ago I didn't say ANNNNYYYTTTTTHHIIIINNNNGGGG
Can we drop the topic please?
(And if you ask me one more question the answer is NOOOOOOTTTTTTHHHHIIIIINNNNGGGGGGGG) GGgghhhh I can just imagine the gloating...
I wasn't the one who started this up again...
ReplyDeleteHa ha ha. I let you have the last word. I stand (sit) defeated.
ReplyDelete