Is the motive of those who currently oppose Kollel, utilizing the Rambam as their model, that they just can’t bear that people are taking money for its study? Such an attitude can, virtually by definition, only come from someone who is exceedingly meticulous not to waste a spare moment available for Torah study. I think it safe to surmise that the percentage of people in this category, who did not spend at least a portion of their married life learning in Kollel, is infinitesimal.Let me add to that something I touched on during my presentation: The problem is not kollel. My brother is 34 years old and still learning - married, 4th kid on the way iyH. He also has zero dollars in debt, and doesn't take any tzedakah. One of the most interesting comments both people I spoke to from Mesila said was that as they discussed opening up in Lakewood, someone argued that they can't come into Lakewood and tell guys who are making $30k between their wives' jobs and their kollel checks that they aren't making enough to support their lifestyles: You'd be basically telling them to leave kollel and get a job, and that simply wouldn't fly there. They responded simply that those people are missing the point: The problem isn't learning, it's people who earn $30,000 spending $70,000 - and it's the exact same problem as someone who makes $150,000 and spends $300,000. If you show people that they simply need to understand their finances and live within their means, those who truly wish to learn will find a way to do so on less money - much like my brother has done. Those who are there merely to live an easy life will likely leave and start working, which is better for everyone.
?! More likely, those who oppose Kollel oppose it on the grounds that many of the people who are taking the money are NOT reluctant to "take the money". Moreover, they likely oppose Kollel on the grounds that it IS an imposition on the public.
To create a false choice of "opposition must come from someone meticulous not to waste a spare moment" to learn and then make another gross assumption that such people are few and far between is disgusting.
The undercurrent of the ideological gripe against Kollel is invariably the placing of the burden on the community to support it - and yet the Rambam writes that if the multitudes were asked at the time of the Tannaim to support Torah they would have gladly showered the Talmidei Chachamim with the greatest wealth!
This is also a horrible argument. There's a far cry from a poor man clearly dedicated to his learning not asking for anything, who, if he did ask, people would have no qualms giving versus a lifestyle which asks for the money upfront to live a rather comfortable lifestyle. Moreover, those same people back then - despite their complete trust that the poor man was in fact learning seriously - did NOT give the money anyway!
Based on the Rambam himself, in light of the consensus among the Halachic decisors from the time of Rambam and on, one would expect that there would be a communal sigh of relief, that we are able to fulfill our most fervent wish which is to increase Torah study and need not be concerned about the problem of the Kollel learners accepting funds, since Kollel has become universally accepted as legitimate.
This is just silly.
Has any one of those saying it is a burden recommended pro bono investment on behalf of the learners (they do often have wedding money!), which the Rambam (Avos ibid.) considers meritorious? Have they agreed to pay taxes on their behalf, which is obligatory for people engaged in full time Torah study?
Why don't they use that wedding money to cover their bills? Wedding money is not worth risking on short-term investments usually. What taxes, exactly?
It is meant to underscore the idea that we must sometimes examine what lies at the root of opposition to a particular system of widespread Torah study, and be certain that it does not stem from begrudging accomplishments of others.
...and we must be extremely careful when doing so to not only understand that not only does it serve nobody to make up or focus on negative arguments which serve no purpose, but to address the primary issues which are legitimate reasons to oppose. Nowhere does R' Beckerman address any of the legitimate reasons people are opposed to kollel, merely dismissing it as something people can place in the comments. He only not-so-subtly hints that those who are against kollel are "begrudging accomplishments", should "breathe a communal sigh of relief" that nobody looks twice at people taking money for being in Kollel, or should be coming up with more ways of handling their financial responsibilities.
Perhaps it is not "begrudging accomplishments" which upsets those who are against kollel, but the actual facts on the ground. What does not help, however, is the seeming attitude of those who are for kollel that implies that not only is what exists now wonderful - while ignoring and dismissing its drawbacks - but that everyone else should be doing even more to make it easier on them.
One of the primary arguments against kollel is the financial burden it creates on the community at large. R' Beckerman does absolutely nothing to lessen that argument, instead choosing to imply that those who are against kollel must be jealous God-haters. He is in essence fostering the hate he's claiming to wish to diffuse. A better approach to the subject would be helping to determine what can be done to alleviate the burden perceived by those who are not in or who are against kollel, by minimizing waste within the kollel community and by ensuring that those who are there wish to be there and are willing to sacrifice to do so. By doing this, it would remove the primary qualms people have with kollel and will both reduce the amount needed while increasing the likelihood that people can - and are willing to - support it.
Ezzie-
ReplyDeleteI seem to think that there are very few people against the idea of kollel. I think the issue lies, and what I personally feel, is that many of those learning in kollel do not belong there, and are only learning since that is what their surrounding community expects of them, and to stray from that path (going to college/getting a job) is akin to leaving their frum society.
To those who are still learning b'hasmada, keep learning, but to those who need to work and do not, they are where the problem lies.
(BTW, I was in R' Beckerman's shiur for 3 years, 2 of those years learning Ta'anis and Sukkah under his tutelage.)
AStudent - Agreed, basically, which is why I simply don't get his piece. I see no positive purpose gained from it whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteEzzie, I don't think your brother is such an exception. My husband is 38 and our 8th child is on the way and he's still in kollel. We don't get support from our parents or from anyone else. We live on the kollel check and my paycheck. We owe money only to the bank (and I think that most working people have a mortgage to pay too). We don't have a car, we don't go out to eat, and I hardly ever buy new clothes. Somehow we're making it and our children's needs are met. I don't think this is atypical--on the contrary, I think that there are many, many families like us and that the ones that are living like working people are missing the point.
ReplyDeleteKW - I didn't mean to imply he is the exception; rather that there are simply plenty of people who are not living as you or he are.
ReplyDeleteThe question is why so much money is supposedly needed to keep kollelim afloat if they should *all* be living as you are; my brother doesn't even get a real kollel check, I believe (Chofetz Chaim has an interesting system) - they're living on primarily her salary and odd jobs he does (like small catering type things).
Yiasher Kochachem to you and your husband for being willing to sacrifice.
Ezzie,
ReplyDeleteFor your brother and for Kollel Wife who take no money from anyone and who are making it by their own efforts, kol hakavod. However, they aren't making it all on their own efforts. Two families: 11 children and one on the way. Shall we talk 12 yeshiva tuitions? Unless both wives are mega earners they are receiving funds by way of tuition reductions or free tuition. That money has to be made up somewhere by yeshivas, and that is where non-kollel families are supporting kollel families. And that is one reason for tuition problems in yeshivas: too few people carrying the whole burden of keeping the school afloat. Yes, yes, yeshivas need to practice economy as well. But when tuition is $15K per child and I pay $45K for my three, when it could be only $18K if everyone actually paid full tuition, I am sending two other children to yeshiva full tuition or 4 children on 1/2 tuition on my cheshbon. And then we get labeled as God-haters if we complain?
Oh, and sorry for the two parts, those kollel checks are funded just how? By donations to the yeshiva? Unless the kollel is printing money in its basement, someone is giving it money to disburse to its learners. And that someone is not kollel leit, since they don't have the money, so it must be the God-haters.
ReplyDeleteProfK--We don't get any tuition reduction. We live in EY where tuition is much, much cheaper than in the US and we pay full price, just like everyone else.
ReplyDeleteRe: Kollel checks--My husband learns in a Wolfson kollel. The check comes mostly from Wolfson plus a bit from the Israeli government. The kollel does not ask for donations. Wolfson, on his own initiative, decided to open this kollel because this is what he chose to do with some of his money. Nobody else is being inconvenienced by this.
I stand corrected in your specific case Kollel Wife. However, my comments still apply to the vast majority of those in the kollelim that are not supported by one man with the money to do so, and certainly not here in the US and other parts of the world outside of Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteProfK - I was actually going to mention reduced tuitions and their costs, and the kollel checks themselves. Like I said, in my brother's case he isn't really getting a kollel check. In addition, my SIL works in the school and they get reduced tuition because of that.
ReplyDeleteI actually brought up that point to my brother a couple of days ago - that even those without debt may still essentially be taking money via scholarships.
It's why I wouldn't be shocked to see more schools switch to a flat-rate tuition system - pay or go home.
why is beckerman still on the sweatshirt?
ReplyDeleteNYF - Which one?
ReplyDeleteI just saw to this now.
ReplyDeleteThe positive purpose of my piece, I felt, was in pointing out that Kollel per se is not bad, and that people who oppose it ON PRINCIPLE on grounds of the Rambam (which comes up again and again on debates on blogs as the basis for PRINCIPLED ANTAGONISM TOWARD KOLLEL) are both factually wrong, and should introspect as to their motives.
I emphasized in the piece, and did so again and again in the comments section, that current implementation has significant drawbacks. That is a message that has been delivered many many times on the blogs. Perhaps I should have spent more time on it - but: a) I had to cut down on my piece as it is, and b) it was not the focus of it.
I am sorry that you were "completely disgusted" by a piece that was meant as a call for personal Mussar reflection - I mentioned that Yeshiva boys can fall into G-d hatred too due to jealousy at others' accomplishments, and in the comments I mentioned that Kollel people can fall into this vis-a-vis those who do not learn full time for any of their accomplishments. No one is immune to it - anyone who feels a twinge of distress at another's elongated Shemone Esrei must ask himself why he feels it.
It may be a style of Mussar that the blogosphere is unaccustomed to, which is why I prefaced it with Rabbi Yechezkel Levenstein's willingness to label the students of Rabbi Akiva (when they died the world was desolate of Torah so they were very great people), and it was too harshly stated. I sincerely regret any negativity it generated.
All the best.
Firstly, I appreciate your responding.
ReplyDeletewhich comes up again and again on debates on blogs as the basis for PRINCIPLED ANTAGONISM TOWARD KOLLEL
Where? Certainly on most level-headed blogs there is little if any "antagonism" toward Kollel, and what there is is not "based on the Rambam" so much as a critique on the financial viability of frum communities in general.
It feels strongly as if you created a false strawman, which you then proceeded to blast.
This was written well before the comments section on the piece. That you had to keep emphasizing it in the comments is probably demonstrative of the lack of clarity of this point within the piece.
Perhaps I should have spent more time on it - but: a) I had to cut down on my piece as it is, and b) it was not the focus of it.
I would agree that you likely should have spent more time on it, and typically, size does not matter when it comes to a blog post. Moreover, in writing any piece, focusing only on slamming others because of a lack of space will not come across well.
I am sorry that you were "completely disgusted" by a piece that was meant as a call for personal Mussar reflection
That's not how Mussar was ever given in any place I have learned, including OJ, but particularly in Mussar Yeshivos.
I mentioned that Yeshiva boys can fall into G-d hatred too due to jealousy at others' accomplishments, and in the comments I mentioned that Kollel people can fall into this vis-a-vis those who do not learn full time for any of their accomplishments.
Agreed - but again, it is only in the comments where you are attempting to show any sort of balance. This is unacceptable given the topic and how it comes across.
It may be a style of Mussar that the blogosphere is unaccustomed to
I think it's a "style of Mussar" that we shy away from even in Yeshivos today. It seems as if it's meant to be Nevardik, except failed even in that. It certainly is not something that should be published to a greater audience.
and it was too harshly stated. I sincerely regret any negativity it generated.
Agreed, and Yiasher Kochacha.
Where? Certainly on most level-headed blogs there is little if any "antagonism" toward Kollel, and what there is is not "based on the Rambam" so much as a critique on the financial viability of frum communities in general.
ReplyDeleteI have seen it (i.e. the Rambam) brought up on Hirhurim comment sections, on my own defunct blog (I posted a whole collection of sources at the time in opposition to the Rambam's position. It was only subsequently that I realized that there was actually some distortion of the Rambam going on) and I have engaged in these debates on Areivim (not archived).
This was written well before the comments section on the piece. That you had to keep emphasizing it in the comments is probably demonstrative of the lack of clarity of this point within the piece.
True. See below - I was explicitly told by the blog-owner to cut out the fat, and so it got swallowed up in the brevity.
size does not matter when it comes to a blog post.
Apparently it is when submitted as a guest post.
Moreover, in writing any piece, focusing only on slamming others because of a lack of space will not come across well.
I did say in the body of the post: a) that I emphasize that the piece should not be construed as a blanket endorsement of the current system. b) That this happened to the greats (RA's students) and happens to Yeshiva boys too - it happens to everyone. The focus was meant to be remonstrative of principled opposition to Kollel, yes.
That's not how Mussar was ever given in any place I have learned, including OJ, but particularly in Mussar Yeshivos.
R' Moshe Shmuel Shapiro z"l wrote that Mussar similar to this can be misconstrued by the young. Rav Shach z"l, though, would often caution in his Yeshiva of jealousy of others' achievements being a manifestation of the Rabbeinu Yonah.
Agreed - but again, it is only in the comments where you are attempting to show any sort of balance.
See above - it was in the post itself.
"Agreed, and Yiasher Kochacha."
Thank you. I am happy that I seem to have somewhat cleared the air. I think that there was some truth to my post in the sense that introspection was necessary, and I recongnize that the truth sometimes hurts - but apparently I made it more painful than necessary.
BYedidus,
Doron