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Wednesday, December 19, 2007

Kosher Cheeseburgers

I don't get why this is such a shock to people, as I've seen these eaten for years already and it's not like there aren't Kosher Subway restaurants around the country, but okay.
According to an article in the NY Blueprint, a Kosher, Manhattan restaurant (”Talia’s”) is now offering a Kosher cheeseburger - made with soy cheese.

The following are excerpts of the article:

“After many attempts to melt the cheese, they found the right temperature in a 1950 degree (F) broiler. A broiler so hot it can cook a steak in minutes. As the chef placed my burger in the broiler I watched the cheese melt over it. He placed it on a toasted bun topped with lettuce, tomato, red onion and pickles and I walked my burger back to my table.

Like myself, Effie (owner of the restaurant), had never had a cheeseburger before, so he brought some non-Jewish friends to try out his new burger and they loved it. He told me that he’s had some lactose intolerant, non-kosher, customers order the burger.

With my cheeseburger, side of fries and a coke, I felt like I was in a diner of a classic old film, another experience we kosher-eating-Jews don’t have in New York.

While I may not know what a meat and dairy cheeseburger tastes like, I can tell you that Talia’s Steakhouse will serve you a well-prepared kosher cheeseburger with all the looks of the real thing.”

The comments at Yeshiva World are rather humorous (alternatively, depressing) as almost all of them decry this as some kind of shanda. I'm reminded yet again that some mindsets are simply hard to fathom. While I understand why some people would initially make a face at the idea, and perhaps even voice concerns about ma'aras ayin or chinuch if others might think that cheeseburgers made of meat and cheese are kosher as well, I'd presume that it is quite clear the restaurant is using soy products - much as Subway does, much as any kosher place which uses soy or other 'fake' products to replace dairy or meat products that otherwise wouldn't be found with the food being served.

I wonder if the difficulty people have in differentiating between ideas, preconceptions (even logical ones), and how things actually work in the real world is one of the largest causes of problems within the Jewish community. People get so hung up on ideas or 'rules' which make sense in one situation that they completely fail to see how those don't apply in others. It's completely pathetic.

When I was in high school, my class as a whole often had issues with lo plug - 'no differentiation'. In other words, the school had certain rules, and refused to make exceptions regardless of any logic presented against those rules. One can debate whether or not this is good policy for a school, but it is certainly understandable at the least why a school would make such rules for its students in high school. But life is not high school. The concept of lo plug certainly has its applications in life, but these reactions to *kosher* food, common sense ideas, and the like are getting beyond ridiculous.

Priorities*, common sense, logic... where have all of these disappeared to!?

Update: ASJ's Chabakuk Elisha chimes on with a very well-put post.

* loosely related

43 comments:

  1. I'm surprised that the narrow-minded and ignorant people who left those comments have Internet access. After all, the Internet has many "treif" uses.

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  2. I agree. The frum community's automatically negative response to ANY kind of new idea is getting to be ridiculous...

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  3. Sometimes life is like high school. Can I sit at the cool table yet?

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  4. Oh fun, I love it when both sides have knee-jerk over reactions:

    Just bec. one can does not mean that one should

    As someone said elsewhere, "Its just odd to me that Jews need to come up with kosher pepperoni because they SO want to feel as if they are having the real thing but not technically breaking anything."

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  5. If it tastes good why shouldn't we try new things? With that kind of stupidity, we shouldn't eat pasta or chinese food either because they come from different cultures.

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  6. g,

    is it odd to you that Jews come up with things that make life easier, such as "eruv" or "shabos goys"? Who said life has to be dificult.

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  7. I love it when people don't read.

    --I did not use the term odd, "someone" did but not I.

    Now to your point.
    Firstly, there is a difference btwn making life "easier" and making it more "pleasurable" or "available".
    Second, if one would make the argument to me that things like eruv and Shabbos Goy are not appropriate and should be eschewed because they "don't look right", "don't feel right" or "give the wrong impression", I might not agree but I would certainly understand where they are coming from.

    Like I commented above, over reactions by both sides.

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  8. G - As noted in the post, I can understand why people would raise small objections even if I disagree. I do not get the overreaction from people like the commenters at YW.

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  9. I do not get the overreaction from people like the commenters at YW.
    --------
    What would your reaction be to the enabling of cars to be used on Shabbos?

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  10. My family did the same thing years ago, but the flip side--making "cheeseburgers" out of real cheese and soy burgers. I personally dislike american cheese so I wasn't a fan, but I think the overreactions are just ludicrous.

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  11. Cool, but unwise. If people can drive to shul on Shabbos, they don't have to live in one community anymore. That's not good for Jewish communities as a whole...

    (See Conservative Judaism, 20th Century)

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  12. No answer the Q.

    How would you react to the practice?

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  13. Very good points. I find that the people who have these mindsets really don't have a clue how to deal with real life situations. Furthermore, "cheeseburgers" with fake cheese are not a new thing. I don't get why everyone is all up in arms.

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  14. So you would make use of it?

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  15. How about if non-chametz bread becomes available for use on Pesach?
    Same look, same taste but not chametz.

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  16. If people know that such a creation exists? I don't see why not...?

    My mom's chocolate chip cookies look/taste exactly the same on Pesach. I eat those proudly.

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  17. Fair enough, so everything bends its knee at the alter of halacha and whether or not it is mutar/assur.

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  18. I dunno about everything, but I should think so on the face of it.

    No?

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  19. Oh, and cookies made at home are different than a commercial product sold to the masses.

    Not that this would seem to matter given your answer to the car question, which is fine.
    Just saying.

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  20. I dunno about everything, but I should think so on the face of it.
    ----------
    Why not everything?

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  21. Not a fan of absolute statements. (See the post. :) )

    There may always be an exception... right?

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  22. There may always be an exception... right?
    --------

    You tell me, if it's allowed it's allowed right? So what's the exception?

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  23. Ezzie - You eat EVERYTHING proudly.

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  24. Maybe it's just harder to feel superior for abstaining from something when a good substitute is available. You can tell a lot about a person's motives for keeping kosher in this sort of scenario.

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  25. I think I hear Jimmy Buffet in the background :-)
    Gotta have some Shannon Road Ice Cream for dessert with that burger.

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  26. tbh, i find the idea of fake cheese a bit off-putting. however, i may be able to be convinced if i can get back to talia's steakhouse (not as good as an aussie steak but still not bad).

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  27. G- they do have kosher for pesach bread. It's made out of potato something with something. It looks exactly like bread.

    why would anyone want to have bread at their pesach table even if it's technically okay? why are we so eager to be like the goyim? It's what always gets us in trouble. I have no problem trying new things, but I get disgusted when jews bend over backwards in order to feel like they're not missing anything. Hello ppl! we are missing something! that's the point. we also have something amazing that the cheeseburger ppl. don't and I think all the beauty and meaning available everyday from being a jew is way more appetizing and far more lasting than a burger topped with cheese. Besides, all, what happened to spirit of law? Fake crab, fake bacon bits, fake cheeseburgers. It's just food! Stop trying so hard. Plus, it's not even good.

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  28. I'd like to pose a riddle, in light of this post, Ez.

    When is it possible to have a Kosher cheeseburger, and the burger is 100% meat, and the cheese is 100% dairy?

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  29. Answer - If the cow is born dead? I know some case where the calf is born a certain way its not rendered 'flieshig'. Correct?

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  30. When is it possible to have a Kosher cheeseburger, and the burger is 100% meat, and the cheese is 100% dairy?
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    Kosher miD'oreisa or miD'rabanan?

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  31. Rea - That may be an answer, but it's not the one I'm thinking. Try again :)
    G - D'Oraisa, I believe...

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  32. Jewmaican - The Rambam's old example with the baby calf inside a shechted mother? I know you don't then have to shect the calf, but I don't know if that's considered basar or not.

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  33. D'Oraisa? Easy!

    Take a burger, put it on a bun, throw a piece of cheese on top and go to town.

    No cooking, no problem :)

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  34. Okay, okay...
    If, when the cow is slaughtered, she has milk inside her udders, then that milk can be made into cheese that is usable in such a way.

    It's not done very often, though...

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  35. Everything does bend its knee at the altar of halacha....as far as the "spirit of the law"-that's contained within the halacha. On shabbos, there's a concept of "shvus"- aside from not doing melacha, we're supposed to refrain from weekly activities-that's when we have poskim come and draw lines, and sometimes there are disagreements, and that's when people go with their rav.
    Come on, we're not talking about looking for heterim, it's just people looking for alternatives. And sefardi matza is bread- it's basically a big pita.

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  36. And sefardi matza is bread- it's basically a big pita.
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    If you were/are not Sefardi, would you use it?

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  37. sometimes there are disagreements, and that's when people go with their rav.
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    Correct, which was my point. Both sides to this have a valid point. My issue is w/ those, on both sides, who pretend not to understand the other point of view and its validity.

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  38. I'm not sefardi, so the halacha says I'm not allowed to use it-if I could, then sure!Hey, it could be that the original koreich was a lamb shwarma:)
    In these areas I see it more as the value in being able to live without certain things, like bread and cookies for one week, and not being of a mindset where we frantically search to fill every "lack" that we have following the torah. But I'm not opposed to each thing on its own.

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  39. I'm not sefardi, so the halacha says I'm not allowed to use it-if I could, then sure!
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    So I'm confused. You say that Halacha states that you cannot have it, and yet there are those who do. But if you could then you would?? There are those who do!! So what's the problem?

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  40. I don't understand the question. As far as halacha goes, I have to follow the minhag of my husband/family. Same applies to sefardim, whose minhag is different....?

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  41. Now I don't understand, either it's chametz or not, right?
    If it's not, then what's the problem?

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