So, now we've come to the point where if you dare to compliment your date on how nice she looks, if you even think to acknowledge and appreciate the effort that she puts into looking nice, if you have even a single thought as to her physical appearence, you must be a "sick, one-track-minded pervert."The issue at hand is a couple of dates who were broken up with immediately after complimenting their dates (on date number four) on their appearance. Now, we've had friends who have noted discomfort with dates commenting on appearance earlier on in the process, but that was when a guy talked a bit too much about her clothes/appearance on a second date, for example. A simple "you look very nice" generally should be okay, certainly after a few dates. Dating is not a cold business transaction (or at least, it shouldn't be), and showing feelings, caring, and appreciation for one another should be encouraged, not shunned. Of course, every date needs to try and be aware of where the other person is in the relationship, and understand that perhaps the person they're dating might not yet be quite as comfortable as they are. And they might not appreciate an overly specific compliment too early on, particularly about how they look. However, a reasonably given, not overly specific comment that someone looks nice should be taken as it is meant - as a nice compliment and gesture of appreciation for how the person is dressed, not as the musings of a pervert.
At this point, I'm beginning to wonder what the point of shidduch dating is anymore. After all, everyone is expected to follow a script. Don't do this before the second date. Don't say that before the third date. Wear this. Don't wear that. The only acceptable places to go are a lounge, airport or other similarly boring place. Anything that uniquely shows you to be an individual is to be discouraged. In short, if you don't follow the script, you're toast.
So, what does that leave? Why even date?
Sunday, June 01, 2008
Don't Compliment Dates
I actually have mixed feelings on this post by Wolf, but I lean his way.
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The only acceptable places to go are a lounge, airport or other similarly boring place.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that last sentiment there...BOOOOORIIIIING.
Do people really date in airports??? I've never heard that before.
a date in an airport? like watching airplanes take off and land?
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who thinks that is fun?
So much religious "morality" can be summed up in the idea that a man who notices a woman's appearance is a "pervert."
ReplyDeleteDon't get me started, this entire process is a joke. People are paired up for the most idiotic reasons. They are scared into following the most moronic stereotypes and directives.
ReplyDeleteI council people all the time to go wherever they want and say whatever they think is appropriate.
If a girl or guy is offended or shocked by a comment they say or a place they chose to go then they shouldn't be together in the first place.
People need to show as much individuality and personality as possible on a shiduch date, because otherwise if you act like a robot and follow a script after the wedding its like you are married to a different person. Which is a recipe for disaster.
90 percent of all the Shiduch dates I went on were wastes of time. I hate to say this but I met my wife in a very informal shiduch situation. The more hard line the shadchun I used the more ridiculous the people they suggested.
I once went on an airport date. It was about as much fun as a lobby.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOk, everyone- I posted this on Wolfish Musings. It's about all the things we complain about about shidduchim in general, and also about society's rules as well. I actually never thought of it in this perspective- it formed itself as I was writing and I must say I think it is very cool. :) I am very gratefu for it too- Thanks, God!- since it is an effective answer (I think) to a lot of the differing opinions we argue with- "Rules are true!" "But rules are stupid!" (the side that most of blogoosphere, with venting on their minds, tend to take... :) ), and is si simple I don't know why we never thought of it before. So I submit my theory to the Committee of Academic Standing (no, I was never involved with those kind of guys.. ;) ) with the hopes that it will be thoughtfully read and reviewed. Feedback is appreciated! Thanks!
ReplyDelete(and I *know* that the italics won't come through but listen- at least I'll show you I tried.. :) )
Jack- separation of the sexes really does not neccessarily cause this. I can see what would make you think so, but really the same thing could happen in a co-ed environment. The factors involved in creating this sort of scenario are rigidity in following rules that while may be generally applicable, are meant to be taken as a GENERAL RULE and not as Torah M'Sinai. What will create this silly date-breaking and superficiality is not going by one's own common sense WITHIN the rules, which as a general outline, are sensible. I think this theory makes sense- since there definitely are certain structures and conventions that apply everywhere- and this is with all rules in life and society- what we have to take care not to do is not see the forest for all the trees and temper basic rules of society with a lot bit of common sense and binah.
OMG! It worked! Hashem I love You!
ReplyDeleteSecurity is making airport dating harder to achieve but I remember being taken to watch the planes take off and land. At least there was something to see while drinking my coke instead of the four walls of a lounge. And I gaurantee you won't run into any of your friends there.
ReplyDeleteRe the complimenting--why not? A well composed compliment says I find something nice about you and I would like you to know that. It says thank you for making an effort when you go out with me. It says I've noticed you and I'm appreciative of you and what you are. And ladies, the only answer required to a compliment is "thank you." Boys who never get practice in complimenting when they are single are going to find it awfully rought going when they get married and compliments are a requirement.
I don't think a guy is a pervert for commenting on a girl's looks, but it is not always appropriate. One guy I dated told me on our second or third date that he thought I was pretty and it distracted him. I thought it was totally inappropriate and that was one factor in our break-up. His comment made me VERY uncomfortable. I didn't like him enough or felt close to him to accept that comment.
ReplyDeleteA guy can say "cool outfit" etc. but should hesitate before he says something more personal.
Re: Complimenting
ReplyDeleteI don't see what the big issue is.
Some people are okay with it and some are not. It is as good a criteria as any to see if two people are compatible with each other.
Grr.. Nobody said anything about my genius invention....
ReplyDeleteHis comment made me VERY uncomfortable. I didn't like him enough or felt close to him to accept that comment.
ReplyDeleteI get the first part, but am totally at a loss with the second part
As a guy...please explain this to me.
This discussing is rather amazing. Rare is the marriage where the wife doesn't expect for her efforts to be noticed, appreciated, and complimented, regularly! Yet, this same behavior on a date is ... unacceptable?
ReplyDeleteThere is no wonder the process has become so painful for almost everyone who goes through it. No longer to be looked forward to by family and single, now to be dreaded by all.
Root canal or shidduch date? All those in favor of root canal, I.
This doesn't have to be, it's not healthy, it's not right.
If women would simply wear burkas on shidduch dates, this problem wouldn't exist.
ReplyDeleteEzzie - can you PLEASE tone down your posts? Next thing you know my work's site blocker will have your blog added to their list of perverted sites.
Erachet; Boring places for dates are important -- if the place were exciting, then you would spend more time paying attention to the place than to your date! And whats the point of THAT? Leitzanus!
It's all very baffling, particularly when the shadchan are so insistent that we should go through a lot of effort to look pretty. A shadchan had told me so that I should wear more makeup, so I spent twenty minutes applying the stuff and then asked her approval. She sent me back for more lipstick. Twice. Then she told me not to eat or drink anything before my date (nearly an hour later) so as to not mess up the lipstick.
ReplyDeleteAll this-- and then the guy will tell the *shadchan* if he thinks I am attractive enough.
I cannot understand why a girl would not want to be complimented after all the effort she puts in to getting ready for a date. Although a guy does need to know how to be tasteful and not make the girl feel like she is an object. I think a genuine "You look really nice" would be appreciated.
ReplyDeletethough a guy does need to know how to be tasteful and not make the girl feel like she is an object.
ReplyDeleteThat dress you are wearing compliments your human form.
Guys, learn how to politely pay a compliment.
ReplyDeleteGirls, learn how to graciously accept a compliment.
His comment made me VERY uncomfortable. I didn't like him enough or felt close to him to accept that comment.
ReplyDeleteI get the first part, but am totally at a loss with the second part
As a guy...please explain this to me.
She wasn't so into him (and she didn't feel like there was enough of a "relationship" for him to be complimenting her looks at that stage) --> she didn't want to hear him say that he thought she was pretty --> he did --> discomfort.
Basically, certain levels of attention (or any level of attention) from a guy you are "eh" about is not always pleasant and is also somewhat unwanted.
Buuuut . . . in the words of LWY, "Bottom line is that people like to be complimented by people they like. I'm sure your wife likes it when you tell her she's pretty. I don't think she likes it when a creep says it. These girls were just looking for an excuse to say no."
Erachet; Boring places for dates are important -- if the place were exciting, then you would spend more time paying attention to the place than to your date! And whats the point of THAT? Leitzanus!
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily! You could go walking somewhere a little more interesting than an airport or find a place to hang out a little more exciting (and less cliche) than a hotel lobby. But that doesn't mean it has to be somewhere so crazy that you forget about your date, ya know?
Some guys do say it in a perverted way, by the way.
ReplyDeletecertain levels of attention (or any level of attention) from a guy you are "eh" about is not always pleasant and is also somewhat unwanted
ReplyDeleteGranted...what does that have to do with the ability to simply accept a compliment from the average date?
This was not about him being obscene of corse.
You have to achieve a certain level of "feeling" to take a compliment?
G - To some extent, I think yes.
ReplyDeleteYou have to achieve a certain level of "feeling" to take a compliment?
ReplyDeleteYeah - otherwise it's a little too forward for my taste. You have to like the guy to a certain extent to feel comfortable with him saying things about your appearance. Otherwise it just feels sorta icky, even if that is not at all what he intended.
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ReplyDeleteFair warning:
ReplyDeleteShould I drop this or cross the line?
(because I'm fairly sure that's where my next question is headed)
I think the problem is that, in the frum world, a compliment on physical appearance implies a level of intimacy. Men aren't supposed to notice the way a woman looks, so telling a woman she looks attractive is as close as a lot of these guys are going to get to telling a date that he might be thinking about sleeping with her.
ReplyDeleteIt's absurd from a secular viewpoint-- or even a newly-minted BT standpoint, but I'm guessing it makes sense to women who have been told that they should cover up lest they cause men to sin, yadda yadda.
Uhhhhhhh . . . do we want to know?
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that this is fair or nice or rational; I'm saying this is how a person can feel.
>Yeah - otherwise it's a little too forward for my taste. You have to like the guy to a certain extent to feel comfortable with him saying things about your appearance. Otherwise it just feels sorta icky, even if that is not at all what he intended.
ReplyDeleteWhat does this have to do with rejecting someone for a compliment? You are rejecting him for other things, not the compiment itself.
What does this have to do with rejecting someone for a compliment? You are rejecting him for other things, not the compliment itself.
ReplyDeleteAnd the compliment is just another straw on the camel's back. You're looking for more and more reasons to say no, once you decide you don't like a guy.
For sure. I'm just saying how/why a compliment could make someone feel uncomfortable, not saying it's a legitimate basis for saying no. People use it as an excuse, I suppose. Not every compliment is going to be misconstrued! Just saying that there are reasons for why someone might not appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteOn advice from counsel, I'm not gonna pursue this.
ReplyDeletesince when do I take good advice anyway...
ReplyDeleteAfter reading manny of the comments her and the original post by wolfishmusings I can't help but wonder what the real issue is.
Is the problem so much about the boy recognizing the beauty/femininity in the young lady or the young lady recognizing it in herself?
Um - could you expound upon the question? Meaning the girl isn't supposed to realize that after primping for an hour she looks pretty and (she hopes) attractive?
ReplyDeleteWait, from whose POV? From the original girl's POV, it is the boy recognizing it in her.
ReplyDeleteFrom the POV of the more normal women here and there, there's no issue in the boy recognizing it, but saying it aloud in certain ways or particularly early on in the "relationship" makes the girl feel uncomfortable. (A simple possible reason for this is it feels like the boy is putting a heavy emphasis on her looks and nothing else, whereas after a few dates, it's clear he's interested in *her* and not just her appearance.)
She's grown up presumably without interaction with boys who might be interested in her, so it feels like a sexual advance. That feeling being utterly new to her, it's scary unless she feels very comfortable with the guy.
ReplyDeleteIt's basically the same thing "normal" kids go through at the beginning of puberty. Orthodoxy Jews just push it off as far as possible, because they're more scared of premarital sex than they are of marriages entered into by sexual adults.
That last sentence should read:
ReplyDeleteOrthodoxy Jews just push it off as far as possible, because they're more scared of premarital sex than they are of marriages entered into by sexual CHILDREN.
She's grown up presumably without interaction with boys who might be interested in her, so it feels like a sexual advance. That feeling being utterly new to her, it's scary unless she feels very comfortable with the guy.
ReplyDeleteIt's basically the same thing "normal" kids go through at the beginning of puberty. Orthodoxy Jews just push it off as far as possible, because they're more scared of premarital sex than they are of marriages entered into by sexual adults.
Ridiculous assertion. Note that most of the people on this and Wolf's thread also think it's ridiculous despite mostly growing up the same way. It's a matter of a skewed subgroup within Orthodoxy, not Orthodoxy itself.
Moreover, JA, women all over are put off by comments from men too early on in relationships or where they're not particularly interested.
ReplyDeleteEzzie,
ReplyDeleteI don't think that it's true that women all over are put off by compliments too early in the relationship. Before I became religious, it was *expected* that the man would compliment my appearance, just as it was expected that I would give him a hug at the end of the date (unless something had gone hideously wrong). A woman would be put off by something really blunt like "that dress makes me want to take you home tonight" too early in the relationship, but "you/your dress/your hair looks really pretty" was a part of the standard dating script. No one I knew ever took offense at it whether or not they liked they guy because the compliment was obligatory.
Ahuva - I should have differentiated between types of comments. I'm noting that off-putting comments exist everywhere; and I agree that a simple "you look nice" is almost always okay. I could *see* even a very nice and normal compliment like that coming off wrong if it's one of the first things in the frum world, but not because of the reasoning JA says.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. Why do you see even a nice and normal compliment coming off wrong in the frum world if it's one of the first things? I actually agree with JA that it comes across as a sexual advance because frum sexuality is so restricted. What's another/better explanation?
ReplyDeleteI actually agree with JA that it comes across as a sexual advance because frum sexuality is so restricted. What's another/better explanation?
ReplyDeleteI think that when you've been set up with someone you've never met before, you feel like a stranger at first and it would be weird for a stranger to tell you that you look nice. It isn't the same as someone you've met before and now you're going out. Complimenting someone on their looks shows a certain familiarity with the person, so if you've never ever met before, a girl might feel kinda uncomfortable with that.
I think it's more of a measure of focus. If it's one of the first things someone is mentioning upon meeting someone, it can be taken as an implication of a shallow person, when people are generally taught that it should be a portion of what you look for in a spouse, not a primary focus. I'm not saying the person means it as such, but that that is how it could be taken when you have nothing else to go with that early on. It's not like someone asked someone out after meeting casually and knowing something about them; this is essentially a blind date.
ReplyDeleteErachet, but *why* is it considered weird for a stranger to tell a woman that she looks nice? It isn't in the secular world. I used to know people who would measure the success of a haircut by whether or not strangers told her her hair was pretty as she passed by. I'm not talking about catcalls, just some random person walking up and saying "I just wanted to tell you that you/your hair looks really pretty" and then walking away (so that it wouldn't be mistaken as a come-on).
ReplyDeleteEzzie, but my question is what is causing this sensitivity in the religious world? I went on blind dates in the secular world-- the guy was still expected to tell me that I looked nice and my friends thought he was rude if he didn't.
A man would only be considered shallow if he excessively focused on his date's looks with too many compliments or more than one very explicit compliment. Why is this not the norm in the frum world? Why is it considered a sign of familiarity?
I wouldn't dream of letting a date go by without paying a compliment -- assuming I'm interested. And I've been on blind dates. I think this is about the lack of sexual experience.
ReplyDeleteOf course I recognize this is only a subgroup of Orthodoxy. I should have referred to them in particular instead of Orthodoxy as a whole. However, the subgroup of Orthodoxy that doesn't allow opposite-sex fraternization during adolescence is quite substantial.
JA - However, the subgroup of Orthodoxy that doesn't allow opposite-sex fraternization during adolescence is quite substantial.
ReplyDelete...and yet, as noted, most of those still think it's fine to pay a reasonable compliment after a short period of time.
I think this is about the lack of sexual experience.
What does that mean? It's not about sex, it's about whether it's considered proper or not to pay a compliment on looks very early on.
Ahuva - Ezzie, but my question is what is causing this sensitivity in the religious world? I went on blind dates in the secular world-- the guy was still expected to tell me that I looked nice and my friends thought he was rude if he didn't.
Fair question. I think it stems from the idea that a person shouldn't be overly noticing other people's beauty beyond their spouse; not in the extreme way that people think they can't look nice or look away from the opposite sex, but I think the extremes show where the original point comes from: The idea that a person's physical attributes are meant to be appreciated by themselves and the person with whom they are in a relationship. Saving it until there *is* a relationship therefore makes a bit more sense.
What does that mean? It's not about sex, it's about whether it's considered proper or not to pay a compliment on looks very early on.
ReplyDeleteNot sex per se, but "sexual experience" in the more general sense. A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.
Erachet, but *why* is it considered weird for a stranger to tell a woman that she looks nice? It isn't in the secular world. I used to know people who would measure the success of a haircut by whether or not strangers told her her hair was pretty as she passed by. I'm not talking about catcalls, just some random person walking up and saying "I just wanted to tell you that you/your hair looks really pretty" and then walking away (so that it wouldn't be mistaken as a come-on).
ReplyDelete...I would find it really creepy if a stranger in the street just walked up to me and told me I looked nice. I suppose I can't explain why. Maybe it has to do with modesty. Maybe it has to do with being a little overprotected. I don't really know. But I know for certain that I would find it really creepy.
I think this is about the lack of sexual experience
Huh? Why is it about that? And why is that a problem, anyway?
Live by a set of rules yourself, but don't insist that everybody else live by the same set. For example, I prefer monogamous relationships, and I think they're generally a superior idea. However, if someone else wants to be polygamous, that's up to them. I don't smoke crack, but if someone else wants to, that's his business.
ReplyDeleteOy, wrong thread, sorry.
ReplyDeleteHuh? Why is it about that? And why is that a problem, anyway?
ReplyDeleteBecause in some ways, the people deciding whether to get married are as muddled in the head as adolescents are.
A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.
ReplyDeleteIt's not overwhelming! Sheesh. It's just not appropriate.
Dating, as we would like it to be, is two people discussing their future compatibility based on the rational. Therefore, they should both be able to show up with paper bags over their heads and proceed just fine. However, we dress up to show respect for our dating partner and yes, also to not turn them off by being visually unappealing. But he still should not be paying undue attention to appearances - which is an emotional more than rational basis for a decision, certainly not telling us about it until we've proceeded far enough in the relationship that it's worthy of consideration.
Hope that isn't as muddled as I'm afraid it might be.
My point is, she wasn't turned off because she was overwhelmed by any sexual advance. She just thought he shouldn't be looking at her very carefully yet.
Dating, as we would like it to be, is two people discussing their future compatibility based on the rational.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think that's a terrible idea. The rational mind cannot tell you if you are a good match, it can just tell you if you are a good match on paper. I've had relationships where everything was perfect "on paper," but we just didn't have the chemistry or whatever. Under the shidduch system, I would not have figured that out until after the wedding.
And of course, sometimes we are attracted to people who would be horrible matches for us, so the rational part is important, too. But if anything, it's hard to think rationally if this is the first time you've really talked to a person you're attracted to in your whole life. Maybe that's what the guy meant when he said he found her prettiness "distracting."
She just thought he shouldn't be looking at her very carefully yet.
You don't have to look at someone even a little carefully to know you're attracted to him/her or that they are "pretty."
A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.
ReplyDeleteI grew up going to a co-ed summer camp since I was nine and lasting until the summer after my year in Israel. I would still find it kinda weird for a guy I barely knew to compliment me on my looks on, say, the first date. I don't know about after that.
I agree that it doesn't really take much studying or scrutinizing to decide whether or not your find your date attractive - at least enough to say, "you look nice." Still, I still see it as a sign of familiarity. In any kind of relationship, including regular friendship, there are always things that you can say once you're closer to someone but not really before. You don't have to be practically engaged in order to compliment each other on looks, I don't think, but I do think it should wait until you're at least familiar enough with each other.
Well, at least, this is only my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
Hope that isn't as muddled as I'm afraid it might be.
ReplyDeleteMuddled, no.
Frightening, yes.
Public question:
Is this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?
Public question:
ReplyDeleteIs this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?
I don't think so. I don't know. What do you consider the "frum world?" As far as I know, we can't generalize. One person feels one way, one feels another. I disagree with bad4 on this one, I don't think dating would be successful if we all did it with paper bags over our heads. I think there needs to be a healthy balance of rational and emotional compatibility. But that's just me. Am I the norm? Am I not the norm? I don't know. I have no idea. I can only speak for myself, not for all frum girls. I think all of us can really only speak for ourselves.
the idea that a man who notices a woman's appearance is a "pervert."
ReplyDeletethe question here is not whether or not he notices. it's whether he says something to her when he notices.
I can only speak for myself, not for all frum girls. I think all of us can really only speak for ourselves.
ReplyDeleteDear Lord...ya think?
My apologies for not categorically asking each individual person for their particular opinion or qualifying that any forthcoming answer would not be taken as a testimony on behalf of all peoples within the purposely left broad demographic labeled "young women in the frum world".
Geez...see, this is another part of the larger issue of which this whole compliment thing is just another example.
STOP OVER-THINKING SO MUCH.
Because in some ways, the people deciding whether to get married are as muddled in the head as adolescents are.
ReplyDeleteCheap shot, nothing to do with the subject at hand.
A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.
It's not overwhelming! Sheesh. It's just not appropriate.
Agreed more with Bad4 on the point, Erachet on the reasoning.
Therefore, they should both be able to show up with paper bags over their heads and proceed just fine. However, we dress up to show respect for our dating partner and yes, also to not turn them off by being visually unappealing.
Disagree. You do need to be attracted to your spouse, and it's quite an important factor. Just not THE important factor.
But he still should not be paying undue attention to appearances - which is an emotional more than rational basis for a decision
Agreed with that part, emphasis mine.
And I think that's a terrible idea. The rational mind cannot tell you if you are a good match, it can just tell you if you are a good match on paper. I've had relationships where everything was perfect "on paper," but we just didn't have the chemistry or whatever. Under the shidduch system, I would not have figured that out until after the wedding.
That's just not true whatsoever. Paper is only good up until the moment you meet. The reason people still date in the Orthodox world, despite pretty much knowing they're compatible in many other ways, is specifically to gauge chemistry and the like. You'd have to be claiming that Orthodox marriages are disasters on a far greater level than others to say that.
And of course, sometimes we are attracted to people who would be horrible matches for us, so the rational part is important, too. But if anything, it's hard to think rationally if this is the first time you've really talked to a person you're attracted to in your whole life. Maybe that's what the guy meant when he said he found her prettiness "distracting."
Which is essentially the argument most of the Orthodox world often uses against those who take an extreme view in this regard. But I think that you'll find people who see pretty women all their lives thinking less rationally when dating one. The idea is to have the focus on the rational *first* before trying the emotional aspects.
In any kind of relationship, including regular friendship, there are always things that you can say once you're closer to someone but not really before.
Absolutely agreed with Erachet.
Public question:
Is this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?
What do you mean by the question?
STOP OVER-THINKING SO MUCH.
Stop over-responding. She was giving her personal answer and noting she can't say if it's the common one.
My apologies for not categorically asking each individual person for their particular opinion or qualifying that any forthcoming answer would not be taken as a testimony on behalf of all peoples within the purposely left broad demographic labeled "young women in the frum world".
ReplyDeleteWell, you did ask about "young women in the frum world" based on Bad4's response, implying that you were wondering if her answer is true for everyone. So my answer was, essentially, no, of course not, it's different for everyone.
And yes, a lot of it is over-thinking. Some of it is just comfort level. It's different for every person. Do I think it's crazy to break up with a guy after a fourth date because he said you look nice? Yes.
Cheap shot, nothing to do with the subject at hand.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary. I think that very "muddleness" is at the heart of beind completely shocked by a simple compliment.
It's not overwhelming! Sheesh. It's just not appropriate.
The comment made her "VERY uncomfortable." You're splitting hairs.
You'd have to be claiming that Orthodox marriages are disasters on a far greater level than others to say that.
Yeah, this gets to an interesting point, in that it's hard to know for sure what's better. Certainly the non-Orthodox world has a higher divorce rate, but 1) that could be due to reasons unrelated to premarital dating and 2) lack of divorce is not the only indicator of a good marriage.
The idea is to have the focus on the rational *first* before trying the emotional aspects.
It's an interesting idea, and maybe even a good one, but I'm still skeptical that you can "try" the emotional aspects or even some of the rational ones without actually having a relationship.
>Public question:
ReplyDeleteIs this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?
>>What do you mean by the question?
I don't know...what do you think I mean by the question?
Come on, I'm asking a direct question in this (and to this) forum related to another comment made in this forum that was part of a discussion in this forum.
---------
No, no- of course you are both correct.
After re-reading the question it is obvious that what I intended to get back in the comments was a one singular answer meant to convey the feelings of numerous individuals a.k.a. the public.
Yes, it's quite clear now that what I was requesting was for some great correspondence to take place off-line and then one agreed upon answer to be placed in the comment thread to stand as the unequivocal stance of all "young women in the frum world" as it relates to their stance on dating vis a vis a compliment from a young man.
Give me a break!
"She was giving her personal answer and noting she can't say if it's the common one.'
Well...duh! That was why I asked in the first place, to see if that was a common view. Hence the "public question".
I think that much of the frum community (including myself) understandably feels uncomfortable dealing with issues of sexuality in dating, because there is a fine line between what is normal and healthy and what is inappropriate. It certainly differs on an individual--and community--basis, but I think that overall, Orthodox society needs to become more comfortable dealing with and discussing these issues--of course, with the proper mindset and in the right context.
ReplyDeleteG - What do you want? The nature of your question implied you were asking for "what frum girls do." I gave you my opinion, clarifying that there is no such thing as "how the young women in the frum world view dating" - "the young women" implies a collective whole. If you had asked, "are there really young women in the frum world who view dating this way?" it would have been something else. The way you asked the question required clarification in my answer. I'm sorry if that offended you in any way.
ReplyDeleteLike I said, over-thinking.
ReplyDelete--I'm not offended, just frustrated.
"how the young women in the frum world view dating" vs. "are there really young women in the frum world who view dating this way?"
My fault, I should have known better.
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ReplyDeleteG, I think people (read, in this case, Erachet) are just worried about offending others who disagree with their opinion. Especially in our j-blogging community, where online personas can suddenly become real people (especially if one is a frequenter of la casa SerandEz), some may try to be sensitive (maybe sometimes too sensitive) about how they phrase their repsonses, so as not to offend those they disagree with.
ReplyDeleteClearly, though, this isn't your approach. :)
I disagree with bad4 on this one, I don't think dating would be successful if we all did it with paper bags over our heads.
ReplyDeleteOK, it was muddled. I was eager to leave work.
I'm talking about the first two dates. You show up to find out if the stuff that it says on paper is right (it usually isn't), and if you can stand to spend two hours with the guy (a personality thing, not a chemistry thing). You could do that easily with a paper bag over your head. With a mouth-hole, of course. Especially if it's a dinner date.
After that, when it gets more personal, you are testing personal chemistry, and that's around when personal comments become more appropriate.
I seem to be in the minority, but I usually like that :)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, i completely agree with G and JA. This is entirely an issue of someone being uncomfortable around someone of the opposite sex. Its been said again, but I'll repeat; it is ENTIRELY standard and accepted to make a perfunctory compliment at the beginning of a date. It is NOT similar to being complimented by a stranger. You got dressed and made-up FOR THIS PERSON! The only reason it feels too intimate is because to most orthodox jewish girls it is a completely alien experience.
Thats what was being said before about being "sexually experienced." Its exactly like talking to a boy or girl right after hitting puberty. Suddenly everything becomes over-sexualized and every harmless comment is a clue to some significantly deeper sentiment.
Of course it is only my opinion, but being turned off by a compliment on a first date is a tremendous sign of being over-protected.
Xvi, JA -
ReplyDeleteJust for the record, bec nobody will see this anyway:
In a deleted betrothal scene from Mulan, the title character slaps her intended husband for complimenting her appearance the first time they meet.
Unless Mulan was written by orthodox female daters, women in general object to thinking that their appearance is among the first thing a guy takes note of when deciding to marry her.
In a deleted betrothal scene from Mulan, the title character slaps her intended husband for complimenting her appearance the first time they meet.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think the scene was deleted? Perhaps because the screenwriter was looking for an old family value character (like Old China) which would have thought it was rude to compliment appearance? "Old Values" are certainly in line with tzniut.
I'm more curious why the scene was removed -- perhaps because the producers thought it was ridiculous that a woman would be offended by such a compliment on a first date?
:-)
It was one of three unused introductory scene.
ReplyDeleteNo - ancient China was big on pretty women. Foot binding, makeup, shapely clothing... women weren't good for much else in that society. Looking pretty and popping children. And the scene smacks of modern influence because
1. she slaps him and
2. he regrets offending her
though no Chinese husband of the time would have cared less what his wife thought, and no woman would dare raise a hand to any man.