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Tuesday, August 21, 2012

Walking Away From Judaism

The last few months - perhaps years, but in particular the recent months - have been very trying for the average Orthodox Jew. Depending on one's views, a person may have spent the recent months justifying the massive expense for a gathering about an undoubtedly serious issue, defending the views expressed at said gathering and/or reconciling them with other serious conflicts, commenting on the sad article by a divorced man and his ex-wife whose dedication to his learning over working ultimately led to their divorce, and perhaps defending the stance of a major Jewish organization regarding how they feel molestation accusations should be handled - or criticizing all of the above. Or, perhaps some balance of both. No matter what one's opinions, there is no way to get around that these are the major topics of discussion in today's Orthodox world, and to argue any of these points is difficult, tiring, and perhaps most of all, depressing.

My mother was in a few months ago to visit my grandparents, and we discussed briefly how some Rabbonim feel that molestation cases should first be reported to Rabbonim before seeking out the secular authorities. My mother (who is a ba'alas teshuva from the 60's) was moderately aghast, and said something along the lines of "If a Rabbi would get up and say to me that I should report my kid being molested to him instead of the police, I'd hang my hat on the whole religion and walk away." I didn't have the heart to note that it was the spokesperson of one of the largest Orthodox organizations, the Agudah, which made this statement as an official Agudah edict, though she will upon reading this piece.

Her comment, however, makes a person wonder: Why, indeed, are we still clinging to Judaism?

A friend commented recently that she hates it when people say not to judge Judaism by the Jews: "A huge part of Orthodox life is the society we create around ourselves. We are meant to be part of the community." As such, it is impossible to just ignore everything that goes on and pretend as if it doesn't exist, as if it doesn't affect our day-to-day lives. Our children's schools are shaped by these issues, our home lives are shaped by them, and each of these issues ultimately shape how our communities are structured and how we interact with one another and with the world at large. Molestation is not merely an issue of children being horribly abused; it is an issue of what our priorities are as a community vis-a-vis interaction with secular authorities, how to balance protection of children from a suspected molester with the protection of adults from false accusations, how we weigh status, how we interact with our own communities, how we view someone who has committed horrible acts in the past moving forward, and how we view safety in general.

It is not enough to say that we should concentrate on worrying about ourselves while ignoring the actions of others. While understandable as an individual viewpoint, this passive approach has been a quiet failure for the Jewish community as a whole, as the actions of others do affect us. When a molester is protected for whatever sake, what does that show about how we value life, innocence, and our children? When dishonesty and theft are ignored, their actors praised - even at supposedly 'insignificant' levels - what message does that send to the hard-working majority, or to the next generation? When people hear about the latest wrong and simply shrug their shoulders, resigned to the idea that "well that's how it goes", without making a conscious effort to avoid patronizing, socializing, and rewarding those who act contrary to what is right, what does it say about us as a community?

What does it say about us as a people, as a religion, when we seem to spend more time justifying all we do that is wrong than being able to point to anything we do that is right?

It is easy to say that it is Elul, and a perfect time for a plea for action. But we shouldn't need Elul to wake up to what we're doing, to see where this is heading! We shouldn't need a special reason or push to do what we're supposed to be doing already. It's appalling that we don't speak out against all the issues that plague us as a community. It's despicable that we shrug off dishonesty like it's common, even if it is - especially if it is! - and it's pathetic that we still have sizable groups in the community who defend molesters; who don't care how they get something so long as it's a good deal for them, or who don't care about how a store acts or how a person made their money; and though we're decades into discussing the subject, who don't understand why so many kids are running off the derech. Maybe if we turned our backs on the people doing wrong, instead of on those trying to do what's right, we'll find that our community returns to one of happiness, of greatness, and of Godliness. Let's get it together for the simple reason that that's what we're supposed to do.

Otherwise, what are we clinging to?

79 comments:

  1. I agree with your friend's frustration at the nonsensical saying "don't confuse Jews with Judaism".
    Orthodox Jews spend their entire lives convincing themselves and anyone they can that they represent God and they've got the most authentic form of Judaism but as soon as they're caught with their pants down we're supposed to forget their own claim to Judaism and say that they don't represent it?

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    1. Right, sort of. I think it's reasonable to say that we have our bad apples and that they don't represent Judaism as a whole. But when the community at large isn't willing to stop the bad apples or treat them as bad apples, then are they really bad apples? Or only if there's a major news story about it? Or only if there's a major story and we aren't getting something from the person?

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  2. I disagree - I think they are talking about something general and do not thin that everyone is perfect

    I too have come across things that appalled me - but I still think that the society as a whole is a better one - and the values are higher

    Each person has to give there own DIn VeCheshbon in the next world and even in this world - especially about molesters - most molesters who don't really change end up in jail at a later date (and if they had been put in jail before would they have come out any safer?)

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    1. What can we point to to say that the society as a whole is better, though? What about the Orthodox community today is looked upon positively from any reasonable perspective? What higher standards and values do we truly hold ourselves to? It's not honesty, it's not how we protect our children, it's not really much of anything, it seems. That's what is so troubling. (FWIW I feel that this is more true in concentrated Jewish areas than it is in other places, but isn't that worse?)

      Molesters don't change. I'm not sure I followed your point, but statistically they don't tend to change at all. Even if they sometimes did, or even if they often did, would that excuse not having put them in jail? I think not.

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    2. I think honesty is one of the values and also being loyal to a spouse - there are more - and yes there r those who fail in the areas - but there are many more who succeed - and in the secular world these are barely values

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    3. Honesty? In the Orthodox community? I haven't seen it in years, sadly. Dishonesty is hailed, bragged about. Being loyal to a spouse? Sadly, again not nearly at the level we would expect. We know too many stories and too many who have been hurt.

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  3. I think it is right to look as Judaism and what it stands for and if someone fails to live up to the values of the religion - that doesn't mean - logically - that there is somthing wron with Torah, Chas VeShalom - it means that that person is either not living up to Toeah values or that there might be something I am missing that would make it look different

    THe fact the the 3rd Beis HaAMikdash has not been rebuilt yet (BeMeHara BeYameinu..) shows that we have not reached the level yet

    As to molesters, the system of putting them in jail has many flaws (if someone is out of jail and really works on recovery - he will probably be doing better than the one who sat in jail and did nothing towards recovery...)

    It is hard when someone who is a Rav or maybe even someone who gave you Mussar is caught doing something against TOrah values - but that is what it is - the person did not live according to what how he was supposed to (and may have even lectured other people in this way) - do we, as adults, turn against everythibg because of that??? I WOULD SAY _ NO!!!!

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    1. I'm not sure you understood my point in the post; while your point re: an individual could be true, when the community as a whole has no issue with people not living up to basic moral values, let alone Torah ones, we have a major issue.

      I don't know what you're talking about re: molesters, but there is no flaw in putting a molester in jail!! The issue is not how well the molester may progress, but how to protect people from being molested!!

      bH my Rabbeim (to my knowledge) aren't the ones going against the Torah values, but the issue is that the community as a whole seems to care little for some of the most basic and important Torah values for values which are not important if they exist at all.

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    2. How long will the molester be in jail - and if he soesn't get treated - how will u protect your child after he is released?

      HE will be caught again - probably - or hust be careful not to be caught

      THere is no way to keep them in jail forever - so what happens after they are out and not treated?

      This is an addiction which by definition means that the person knows it is disatorous for HIM - the molester and he still does it

      Yes, he knows he will be put back in jail - but this doesn't stop him


      (Just like someone who can't stop smoking - or any other kind of addiction

      I do not think these guys should be hidden and promise they will get help - there must be a way to insure that the poerson is getting REAL help and working on it
      - I just don't thjink that a jail sentence solves the problem!

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    3. The jail sentence at least keeps him from other victims! The longer, the better. And afterward, having to declare he's a molester and not being allowed areas where he'd have easy access etc. all will help to limit the risk - and hopefully better educated parents and kids can help avoid the situation in the first place.

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  4. If we measure ourselves and our society against other selves and societies, we look comparatively OK even now despite our faults. However, the Elul imperative is to look at what we are and what we've done compared to HaShem's high expectations and make the needed adjustments.

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    1. Right now, I don't know that that's true. You have the advantage of living in a smaller town, so perhaps that helps; I noted in another comment that I believe it does. That said, as a whole, I don't know that we look so great - and I agree that above all, we should be striving to meet higher expectations.

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  5. The fundamental problem is unsolvable. That problem is that Orthodox Judaism values halakha, tradition, and rabbinic authority over morality and truth.

    There are many situations in which halakha and morality are at odds, from reporting molestors (depending on the posek) to agunahs to gay rights to women's rights etc. etc. etc. It takes years and sometimes generations to come up with enough rationalizations to effectively bring halakha up to date with modern morality, so Orthodox Judaism will always be way behind.

    This is also why you see the tendency for the more modern, more secularly educated, people and communities to be leading the way on morality in the Orthodox world, while the less-modern, less-secular branches constantly try to push them out of the Orthodox umbrella. You see it happening right now with YCT, for example.

    This is also of course one of the main reasons that so many sensitive and/or intelligent people are going off the derekh in droves. You just can't grow up in the modern world as a sensitive or intelligent person and believe that the almighty creator of the universe thinks that gay sex is an abomination worthy of stoning to death (even if the penalty has since been rationalized away in long-previous iterations of the process I alluded to above) or that it's fair or reasonable that women can't be rabbis or that the rabbis indeed have any more moral authority than Catholic priests or the Pat Robertsons of the world.

    As long as religiosity and fealty to halakha is valued over clear-eyed truth-seeking and morality, the problem is unsolvable. Progress will continue to be made, as it has been made for centuries, but it will continue to lag at least a generation or two behind the rest of the culture.

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    1. Winner for most predictable comment of the day...!! (I think I figured out your comment word-for-word before you wrote it.) :)

      Firstly, you're barking up the wrong tree. The issue I'm addressing is that Orthodoxy isn't living up to its *own* standards. This has nothing to do with homosexuality or modern morality or anything of the sort. It has to do with issues which are not a matter of debate between societies - honesty, morality, treating people properly, using sechel [common sense], and just doing what is right in general. That all of the issues I mentioned are discussed so often within Orthodoxy show that it is not the "Orthodoxy" that is the problem at all. In fact, I'd argue that if you actually spent time within the Orthodox world, it is the people who are the most careful about the religion who are the most positive in terms of their relationship with the world at large and within the community.

      This is also of course one of the main reasons that so many sensitive and/or intelligent people are going off the derekh in droves.

      That's just not the case, as you've even admitted in the past. None of those are why people are going off. It's far more often from Jews behaving badly and their kids/students/et al seeing this hypocrisy that causes people to go off. They view the values as fake and hollow, so why bother with the rules?

      You've also made a complete false choice by continuously asserting that fealty to halacha and religiosity are contrary to clear-eyed truth seeking and morality, when in fact - when done right - they actually coincide quite well. But we know that this argument will just go in circles.

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  6. No atheist has a clue about truth or morality except what he/she may have absorbed from contact with religious thought.

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  7. Bob Miller, I subject you and your outlandish comment to the Hitchens Morality Test:
    Please name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer in the name of faith that couldn't have been done by an infidel.
    And name, if you can, a wicked action that could only have been mandated by faith (this is easy).

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  8. Interesting article. I just have one fundamental disagreement regarding judging Judaism based on the Jews and the subsequent question- "what are we clinging to?". There are many beautiful societies in the world. Buddhists, for example, sit in their temples and calmly meditate. It's admirable, calming, relaxing, and they probably even report child molesters!

    We aren't supposed to be Torah-Observant because it's a nice community or because we enjoy the association that it offers. It is either a true religion or it isn't. People are (should be) Torah-Observant because they believe that the Torah is a divinely given document, written by G-d, that we are meant to follow. With that viewpoint, such a life can offer a community and joy as well but that should be the underlying principle behind such a life.

    Given that we are part of such a group, it is obviously natural to feel ashamed when certain rabbis make illogical declarations and certain issues go unnoticed, but if that offers a reason to just walk away then we should question ourselves first by answering this question: why are we Observant? If we find the answer to be our belief in the truth of the system, then no other issue should counter that. If, however, we are not Observant for that reason, then that would call for serious re-evaluation of the lives we lead and what we believe in.

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    1. While all true, that is somewhat the point of the post, too. Community is central to Judaism, period. But if the community is doing all the wrong things, then it doesn't make sense to be a part of it, if one wants to be Torah observant. But to be Torah observant, you cling to that community, since the community is so necessary to Torah observance. But the community is doing all the wrong things... and it goes on and on. So if it doesn't work, then what are we clinging to? It's almost easier to lead a life in line with the most important aspects of Torah observance by just leaving it. Isn't that sad? What's better - a good frei Jew or a horrible frum one?

      The point of the post wasn't to say "OK, time to pack it in." The point is to say "look how sad it's gotten, that this is the internal debate people have."

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    2. While all true, you seem to be ignoring one fact.

      Jews today don't have ONE community. If Mashiach was here and we were all living happily in Israel, and there were people getting away with child molestation, then you can complain about THE community doing the wrong thing.

      Today though, Jews are all spread out. We are ALL over the place with SO many different rabbis and SO many different views. I'm sure you don't identify with every Jew as being part of YOUR community but if a rabbi in the US enabled a molestation to go unpunished then its your communities problem? You would probably agree that most people in that rabbis community aren't part of your community.. right?

      The point is, there are many rabbis with many opinions. The best we can do is just lead our lives. There are many things to be upset about today. Modern Orthodoxy has transformed into something else and most really Modern orthodox kids today can't pick up a gemara and learn it on their own. Frankly, I'm also more upset about the fact that an orthodox person can go ahead and molest a child, rather than the fact that a rabbi mishandled the situation.

      These are just the realities of today's world. It's a spiritual Galus. Our individual goals should be to try to lead by example!

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    3. Sure, but what community is setting a positive example? I can surround myself as much as I want with positive people, but the overwhelming thrust of the community as a whole (made up of all of the above) simply is not living up to anything even close to greatness.

      (I'm not sure what the MO bashing was necessary for, let alone whether it's true. I also don't know that the Yeshivish world is doing much better in that facet, and it has its own drawbacks.)

      I'm of the first to say that we should all live our lives individually to the best of our abilities (not sure if you have read here in the past, but my oft-quoted favorite is R' Salanter's). But that's not enough.

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    4. There are many communities setting very positive examples.. (unfortunately most are out of town)

      Also, I'm a big fan of MO.. in its true form. Today, there are so many people who view themselves as "MO", who barely keep Shabbos or Kosher, and their kids are even further away.

      That is the particular form of MO that I was referring to, and it has become all too common. I obviously would agree that there are many great fundamentally MO communities.

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    5. Agreed on out of town communities (as noted in other comments), and it's quite possible that this is just NY grating on me as always. :)

      Understood and agreed on the rest.

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    6. So EZ - why dont u move out of tawn already - or maybe come on ALiyah!!!

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    7. Or you could just make aliya to Beachwood :)

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    8. I think the Beachwood (OHIO) I suppose is still out of town and dpsen't compare to Eretz Yisrael!!!

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    9. Would love to move to either...!! (sigh)

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  9. Bob Miller and Anonymous have helpfully provided examples of the mindset I'm talking about. If you raise a generation of people to believe that what the rabbis and tradition say is by definition true and moral, then they are not equipped to recognize that things are wrong.

    They have been raised to distrust empiricism, reason (outside of the heavily-constrained Talmudic and halakhic reason), moral intuition, utilitarianism, pragmatism, really anything except dogmatism.

    They cannot be wrong by definition, you see. Even if you try to argue from within the framework, you are just offering another opinion and who are you to argue with the gedolim? Best case, it's elu v'elu divrei Elokim chaim.

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    1. That was contradictory, actually. Elu v'elu is a perfect reply to you - I don't know where you've gotten your education, but the idea behind elu v'elu is that there will be constant debates within the religion itself (in fact, the name Israel is meant to mean internal struggle). Dogma was never supposed to be part of Judaism. That this has happened in some circles in recent history is a major issue which is being heavily argued itself, as you know. In terms of the rest, what you've said is just false.

      Ironically, JA, I can always count on you to push me back toward realizing the good side of Judaism. :)

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    2. But we do believe that leaders have Siyata DeShmaya to Poskin correctly - and we on the one hand are supposed to listen to the Navi or Wise Man of the generation and also to keep on asking

      There is a concept of Da'as Torah - amd there is the Pasuk of listening even though it seems that they are telling you that right is left, etc. Tho not yet Orthodox have problems with Mistvos that they think are wrong as well -

      That doesn't mean we can't question and if it really bothers someone I am sure at least some Rav will answer why he thinks the molester should be kept out of jail (I am sure that he doesn't think all molesters should never be put in jail - ) so why not go and speak with them. But of course, you may not agree and you can decide what u think of this Rav and if y0u want to aceept his Psak

      The question here also is if someone is looking to bash Charedi or all Rabbonim and therefore can't accept that they have a different way of looking at things

      (It is interesting how this intolerance always seems to get "mean" about people who are more conservative - suddenly all the respect for human rights and accepting and respecting people as human beings - suddenly disappears - much to anti-Semitism by Goyim)

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  10. JA, under what principle do you see a given action to be good or bad, as opposed to seemingly useful or seemingly not useful?

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  11. Anon1, that is a big question that cannot be adequately addressed in the comments section of a blog, but has been addressed thousands of times by great thinkers. If you're really curious about atheist morality, do some googling. Atheists hold a variety of moral views just as religious people do. You may start here if you wish.

    That's sort of a diversion, though, from the topic at hand, because Ezzie's post takes it as a given that the things he's complaining about are wrong.

    My point can be summed up in this idea: Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you are told. Fundamentalist religion (e.g. Orthodox Judaism) is doing what you are told regardless of what's right.

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    1. Dear Jewish Atheist,

      Your posts are as confusing as your religious beliefs (no offense). If you think orthodox Jews simply do what they are told, you are misguided and ignorant. We are driven to question. After all, us Jews are know as a stubborn and obnoxious bunch! Please re-read my earlier post because i believe that you had a reading comprehension issue the first time around.

      On a side note (replying to your latest post), real orthodox Jews logically believe that the Torah (5 books of Moses and the Talmud) are divinely ordained and reflective of a lifestyle filled with 'truth'. We therefore strive to find a Halachic authority (respected Rabbi) trustworthy enough to know what the Torah's opinion is in any given situation. It is the belief of the orthodox world that when a person spends all of his time immersed in the study of Torah, it becomes a part of that person and that person's ruling would thus be reflective of the truth.

      Therefore, Morality is doing what is true! Being an atheist, who are you to say what is right?! ("Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you are told"). It's simply your opinion of what is right. If you wish to say that right can be defined as society's consensus of what is right, then that is likely to change at any given moment. Nazi Germany believed that is was right to kill Jews, would you have agreed with that? My right and your right are different... who's really right?

      To me, and others, the Torah gives us a clear moral compass which comes from an above human source. i believe that and that is why I choose to follow it. i don't pretend to know more than G-d, but unlike your assumption, orthodox Jews are not meant to take another humans words (even a rabbi) as truth unless they truly believe that it is reflective of the Torah's objective opinion in that scenario.

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    2. Very well said.

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    3. You are driven to question within certain narrow boundaries and conditioned to only accept certain answers.

      Have you ever questioned who wrote the chumash and sincerely considered the answers of non-Orthodox Jews, for example?

      "To me, and others, the Torah gives us a clear moral compass which comes from an above human source."

      Your moral compass is clear, alright, it just points in the wrong direction. It comes not from an above human source, but from centuries of rabbis making stuff up.

      You are abdicating your responsibility as a human being to seek out the truth and to make intelligent moral decisions by turning it over to dogma and superstition.

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    4. Anon, well said.

      JA - That's just not true. As for the rest, that's your opinion.

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    5. That's very silly Jewish Non-Believer (I don't believe in the ability to be an atheist).

      You don't know my background at all so to assume that I've never questioned or considered alternatives is presumptuous and false. With your mindset, I'd either assume that you grew up very very Modern Orthodox without much of a taste for a deeper Yeshiva Orthodoxy, orrr you grew up Chasidish and had a very bad experience. Either way, it is clear that you have a bone to pick.

      I, however, was just looking for a logical argument. I haven't found one in your last post!

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    6. I am a Kollel member and on my way towards Rabbanus, and I agree with JA in a certain sense. As a society we do tend to only question in a very limited sense, and answer in an even more limited sense. How many answers could really be given, by most people, to hashkafa questions? If you put one toe out of line in questioning, you are considered ehhhh. This is a mistake. We need to be more open to questioning, as we have real answers, not just apologetics. Our morality and ideas are quite well thought out and have been built up over many generations. Yes, sometimes we need to remove the excess "fat" from the ideas to get to the meat of it, but it is hard to make a real argument that they aren't moral.

      The issues that JA is finding immoral, I believe, need to be explored further to understand which of the many objections he is bringing up. There are many avenues, of which many are fruitless when carried further.

      Regarding your last statement that "Fundamentalist religion (e.g. Orthodox Judaism) is doing what you are told regardless of what's right." -- It depends which religion. Yes, at times, in certain sects this is a very true statement, even elevated to an ideal. This is not true, in all respects, in all sects, however.

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  12. JA, I take issue with the final line of your comment: "Fundamentalist religion (e.g. Orthodox Judaism) is doing what you are told regardless of what's right."

    As religious, Orthodox Jews, our belief is that what we are told IS, by definition, absolutely right. Now, I am not touching the molestation issue with a ten foot pole because I cannot pretend to understand the depth of the issues at hand. The problem I have is that so many people, like yourself, seem to think that Judaism needs to adapt to deal with the "modern" world. No it doesn't! There is a reason why halachos were given. Just because the world has become so "enlightened" (or I would say, so openminded that their brains fall out), does not mean that we should abandon our faith.

    Religion, at its core is blind faith. Some of us have it, you obviously don't.

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    1. Our religion is not blind faith at its core sir. I advise you to listen to some Aish classes to refresh your opinion

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    2. That wasn't really what I meant, perhaps a poor choice of words. I apologize, it just seemed easier to put it that way than to try to convince someone who calls himself an atheist that Hashem exists.

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    3. There's no need to convince anyone of anything haha. Even the most renowned atheists believe in a higher power!they would just tell you that it isn't a 'personal' g-d.

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    4. Blind faith was a very poor choice of words, sorry...

      I don't think JA needs to be 'convinced' that God exists. He does not believe He does, which is a choice he made. But saying broad claims about atheism (particularly untrue ones) accomplish little good and sometimes much harm.

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  13. Let's examine the great atheist movements of recent centuries that took control of countries. Mass murder and theft by government seems to be a recurring theme.

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  14. OK this is seriously getting out of hand.

    Anon 1:44PM - you and Anon 12:27 PM have the same problem. Obviously one isn't suggesting that people follow Torah because "it looks good on TV", you are 100% right. Either one believes in Torah or doesn't.

    However, this does not absolve the community of the responsiblity to take a serious look at itself and admit that it is failing in some very key areas. The number of Jews going OTD/away from Judaism is increasing, almost exponentially. The media is filled with story after story of molester after molester. Rabbis selling organs. A dude getting set on fire. (And I'm sure me & Matis didn't help either.)

    This simply has to stop being accepted as reality. Until there is a mass outcry from people that "yes, we want all Jews to be included in k'lal Yisrael", Jews are going to continue to turn their backs on Judaism.

    The halachic frameworks for things like dealing with molesters exists - but the debate needs to begin with "how do we get this molester away from kids" not "how do we keep the cops out of this". The Orthodox community is having the wrong conversations -- apparently. Let's stop putting the "community" on a pedestal. Until people say "things have to change", there will always be people who tearfully swallow their belief in Torah and leave, because there simply is no place for them.

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    1. Y-Love - actually one of the best comments I've read in a while. (Ironic, because on FB I find myself mostly completely disagreeing with a lot of what you write. :) )

      Thank you - very well put, particularly the bold points.

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  15. Anonymous at 1:49pm says:
    "Nazi Germany believed that is was right to kill Jews, would you have agreed with that?... To me, and others, the Torah gives us a clear moral compass which comes from an above human source."
    LOL - and you think that the Nazis were somehow very different than you? OF COURSE they believed that their beliefs were utterly true and that THEIR concepts of moral compass certainly came from a higher source than mere mortals. Who are you kidding?
    You too have no problem with killing an entire nation - man, woman, and child - if it can be clearly shown as part of your beliefs. Morals only exist to you in relation to what you believe a higher power has informed you.
    There is literally no difference between you and a Nazi, other than what YOU claim as a longer chain of tradition (which the Nazi would certainly deny). But as for claims of "ultimate truth" and moral right, you are the same.

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  16. Anonymi: Your belief in morality is no more objective than an atheist's. If your God would tell you to kill babies, would you do it? Would you consider doing so? My guess is your answer to at least one of the above questions is "no". So much for your objective morality. Welcome to the real world.

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    1. While your point is well made, I would submit that the Anonymi simply made theirs poorly. It is unfair to make up an "if God says to do X, would you do it" question, because the argument in response would be that "God wouldn't do so". In fact, that's what many say the message of the Akeidah was - while a test, ultimately the point was that [perhaps contrary to religions of the time] God would never call on Avraham to act in such a fashion. The religion is based on fair and just values, etc. etc. The discussion could go on forever in circles.

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    2. The argument Anonymi are trying to advance is that morality for an atheist is subjective while it is objective for a theist. I'm pointing out that it is also subjective for a theist, because, as you've pointed out, the Akeida was just a test, and God would never expect Avraham to kill his son. The obvious question would be, why not? Why is murder evil unless God says so? If God says that murder is okay (whether in general or in a specific case), it would be moral by definition. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that morality is decided down here and is then attributed to up high.

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  17. Why would an atheist value any human life above that of a gerbil or a dandelion? If that happens, it's only because they run on the fumes of religions long since left. We don't have guess about what atheists run amok would do. Many tens of millions murdered in the 20th Century attest to it. This mania goes back to the French Revolution.

    Of course religious Jews can improve, and this is the time to do it seriously. However, we also have much to be proud of, our loyalty to HaShem through thick and thin included.

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    1. I see the 21st century being full of genocide by Islam run amok, the 15th century by Christians, and both of them were taught by their Jewish predecessors in Canaan.

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    2. Good thing Hitler was not an atheist. Otherwise, you might have had a somewhat-unpathetic point (albeit hysterical and idiotic).

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    3. Hitler yemach shemo was an atheist with pagan sympathies. Tally up the total genocide toll to date to get an idea of my point.

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    4. Was he? Does this sound like it was said by an atheist: “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
      Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.” See link for more quotes. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/17/list-of-hitler-quotes-in-honor/

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    5. Many people feign religiosity to get where they want to go. Hitler wanted to get the religious antisemites on his side, too.

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    6. You're right. Moshe Rabbenu was probably feigning religiosity, too.

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    7. You mean I should take seriously your unsubstantiated claim that Hitler was an atheist? Do you have any evidence at all besides for the fact that it makes you sleep better at night?

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  18. Well. This conversation has taken an interesting direction! I will comment on the post itself: Thank you for writing it. It is honest, heartfelt, and may come from a place of struggle and I'd even say pain with the challenges that Orthodoxy faces in the modern era. Your honesty and introspection is refreshing and admirable.

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    1. Thank you, and thank you for understanding the post! I think many of the comments above got a bit sidetracked...

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    2. Ya think? ;-) I have a loooooong email in my gmail drafts that I've been composing to you since your "Honesty and the Orthodox Community" posts. This post touches on what I'm writing as well. You've hit SO many points that resonate with me. And while I am not Orthodox, I live and work in the Orthodox community (well, I no longer work in the community - I have my own biz now), and have many friends and family in same community and well, you know. So yeah. This resonates. That email will get to you at some point :)

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    3. Ezzie, since you've been thinking about community problems for a while---

      What is the action plan?

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    4. I think first we need a community who cares enough to solve them.

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  19. I am a Kollel member and on my way towards Rabbanus, and I agree with JA in a certain sense. As a society we do tend to only question in a very limited sense, and answer in an even more limited sense. How many answers could really be given, by most people, to hashkafa questions? If you put one toe out of line in questioning, you are considered ehhhh. This is a mistake. We need to be more open to questioning, as we have real answers, not just apologetics. Our morality and ideas are quite well thought out and have been built up over many generations. Yes, sometimes we need to remove the excess "fat" from the ideas to get to the meat of it, but it is hard to make a real argument that they aren't moral.

    The issues that JA is finding immoral, I believe, need to be explored further to understand which of the many objections he is bringing up. There are many avenues, of which many are fruitless when carried further.

    Regarding your last statement that "Fundamentalist religion (e.g. Orthodox Judaism) is doing what you are told regardless of what's right." -- It depends which religion. Yes, at times, in certain sects this is a very true statement, even elevated to an ideal. This is not true, in all respects, in all sects, however.

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  20. The fact is that "don't judge Judaism by the Jews" is a pretty fair statement, after all very little of what we do today has anything to do with the Judaism of the times of Kabalat Hatorah, or either of the Temple periods. It is the evolution of 2000 years of Jews without the ability to actually fulfill the entire Torah. We have put on a pedestal those few traditions that we were able to keep during the exile, along with whatever creative ways we had invented to keep from totally assimilating into the surrounding culture. The fact is that historical Torah true Judaism and the actual fulfillment of the Torah was lost long ago, and our current practice is far from what G-D commanded us to to.

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    1. So if we were all Karaites we would be better human beings? That's possible, but we're not Karaites. Therefore there's so much judging to be done.

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  21. http://harpers.org/archive/2012/07/hbc-90008707
    Only Rosenberg—a philosopher at Duke with a predictable commitment to rigor—insists that doing away with religion means doing away with most of what comes with it: a sense of order in the universe, the hope that life has some inherent meaning, even the belief in free will. If it’s true, as Rosenberg insists in contradiction of Harris and Botton, that we can’t have the benefits of belief without belief itself, this raises another question. Setting aside matters of truth and falsehood, are we not better off believing? Broadly speaking, atheists seem to fall into two camps on this matter. There are disappointed disbelievers, those who would like to believe in God but find themselves unable. Then there are those who find the very idea of such a being to be an outrage. Among the latter camp, Christopher Hitchens famously compared God to Kim Jong Il, ruling the universe like his own North Korea. We ought to count ourselves lucky, Hitchens said, that such an entity does not exist outside the human imagination, because the only appropriate response to it would be fury and rebellion.

    I happen to count myself among the disappointed disbelievers, which is why I was interested in the attempts of Harris and Botton to salvage some religious splendor for the secularists. So I was only more disappointed to find Rosenberg’s insistence that such efforts were hopeless far more convincing than the efforts themselves. During an email exchange with Rosenberg, I asked him which camp of atheists he fell into. His response acknowledged my impulse: “There is . . . in us all the hankering for a satisfactory narrative to make ‘life, the universe and everything’ (in Douglas Adams’s words) hang together in a meaningful way. When people disbelieve in God and see no alternative, they often find themselves wishing they could believe, since now they have an itch and no way to scratch it.”


    The Whole article is fascinating.
    KT
    Joel Rich

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  22. I grew up in California, away from a big city. I never understood New York Jews and I still don't. Nothing they do reminds me of Judaism. It isn't. It's old school Cathlolism.

    I moved to Israel... I still stay away from New York style Jews. There are 13 million Jews in the world. 700,000 of them are Charedi. Charedi Judaism and Agudah are NOT representatives of Judaism. Just Galut Catholicism pretending to be Jewish.

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  23. >Galut Catholicism pretending to be Jewish.

    :-)

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  24. Without reading all the comments, it seems to your post is fundamentally flawed. Either the founding stories of Am Yisroel are true or not. If not true, then why bother no matter how good and moral the community seems to you. If true, then no matter how bad the community seems, it's your obligation, as a believing jew, to roughh it out and improve the system or be frum and go live in a cave. Unless you let your emotions guide you, I don't see room for other options.

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    1. How about this? The founding stories are true, and the founding stories tell us that we have to create a Holy Nation, a Kingdom of priests. If the nation is not holy, if the Kingdom is not a kingdom of priests, what do you do? The founding stories say to give a olah tamid forever. The olah tamid has stopped, perhaps I should stop doing the rest as well?

      Alternatively, the founding stories are not true, but they are still my people, and my self identity. It's a label I like to associate with. It's the sports team I like, and the philosophy I find myself most attracted to.

      To make a long story short, you give a false dichotomy.

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    2. I don't understand your dichotomy either, but you've missed the point of the post. This has nothing to do with true/untrue, but with the seeming lack of interest in the Orthodox community to live up to its own standards whatsoever. If it isn't following the Torah, what is it? Just a random group of people doing whatever it feels like, pretending it's a religion.

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  25. Interesting timing. I just saw today that the gemara yerushalmi has a different understanding than the bavli regarding the "elder's" role in the egla arufa discussion (this week's parsha). The yerushalmi says the elders are proclaiming that they didn't allow the murderer to escape justice, i.e. they didn't know from any previous incident that the guy was guilty, and despite that let him roam freely. In that sense, they are not responsible for this new victim's death...

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    1. Halevai people would take greater responsibility when they do let someone escape justice, and acknowledged their guilt over the next victims...

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  26. I’m glad I stumbled across this discussion. If I may -

    The evolution of Judaism over the past 2300 years has been towards an emphasis on the ritual and the law over the hashkafa. This is an unfortunate by-product of Rabbinic Judaism run amuck (NOT an inherent part of Rabbinic Judaism), where Halacha has become an end in itself, rather than a means to an end. I hope we can all agree that the reason we are here is to do "Tikun Olam B’Malchut Sha-dai”. That is the end goal. The Halacha is merely a means of protecting those tools which God has given us to accomplish that goal. That is not to undermine Halacha at all – it protects our bodies, our environment and our souls so that in our clumsy rush to do Tikun Olam we don’t accidentally destroy the very tools needed to accomplish our task. However, when the details of Halacha become the end in itself we are left with only dry, withering leaves because the trunk and roots of the tree have been left to die and rot.

    To get practical, it appears to me that the only way that the Torah Observant world will be able to fix this problem, is by retooling the Yeshiva curriculum. When three weeks can be spent on a sugyah discussing damages accruing to a groom who did not get the virgin he paid for, while mussar is relegated to 10 minutes a day before Mincha and hashkafa is not studied at all, why are we surprised when the next generation of Rabbanim lack the vision and courage to integrate Halacha and morality? When we are so ignorant of our history that Avraham Avinu is illustrated with a shtreimel, can’t we dedicate some time to learning about our 4000 year old legacy? Furthermore, couldn’t some of the time spent learning Rashi and Tosefot be redirected towards some sort of hands-on Tikkun Olam – whether kiruv, bikkur cholim, working in a gemach or even cleaning up a park?

    The orthodox person who steals or molests children is just the symptom of the underlying disease. Treating the symptom (though necessary) will not cure the disease itself. That the Jewish people will continue is not a question. The question is whether the Rabbi’s will continue to lead us or we will find another derech as we have many times before.

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    1. Mostly agreed. (FWIW I went to a mussar yeshiva for high school, and think it was incredible in that sense. I was dismayed at the attitude toward mussar in another yeshiva I attended.) And agreed that we can't just treat symptoms, which is part of what I was driving at in the post - we have to care that these things are wrong, and we have to care about doing what is right. Without that, we will never solve the issues.

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    2. Very keen (and funny might I add) observation David.

      I've been screaming for years that the Yeshivah curriculum is flawed.

      I remember asking a guy who'd been in yeshivah for years to help me out for a Chumash test and he was totally unable to assist me (fortunately we found an artscorll) :)

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