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Saturday, December 26, 2009

Homosexuality in the Orthodox Jewish World

PERSONAL REQUEST: Please do not read this post prior to reading the full transcript of the Yeshiva University panel Being Gay in the Orthodox World posted on Chana's blog. Please also read her To Deserve and To Sacrifice post and R' Gil Student's The Growing Problem of Post Orthodoxy post as some points that will be attempted to be made below will undoubtedly overlap with some of the points they made in their writings. If you have the time, I recommend skimming through some of the comments on those posts as well - there are some interesting discussions scattered throughout. Thank you in advance.
Last week, Yeshiva University's Wurzweiler graduate school for Social Work hosted a panel whose mission was to share with the public the incredible difficulties faced by homosexuals in the Orthodox community, as halacha (Jewish law) does not allow for them to act upon their desires. As might be expected, it's a strong flash point in the Orthodox world, and discussions have abounded wherever one might step foot, with very interesting and different discussions all over - at work, at home, at Shabbos meals with different crowds, at shul.

According to the organizers and panelists, the primary purposes of the event were to promote discussion [and/that would in turn] evoke sympathy and understanding in the Orthodox world as to the difficulties faced by gays and lesbians in the frum community. The stories themselves are fascinating and in some cases, surprising and eye-opening, and each of the four panelists' stories bring up different aspects of the trials a gay person goes through. There are a number of things that can strike a person upon reading the transcript, but perhaps the most interesting point that sticks out is one that demonstrates just how unnecessary the entire production showed itself to be at this point in history.

The issues regarding homosexuality in the Orthodox community are predominantly different than those faced in the overall American public. The battles are not over gay marriage or civil unions, and based on the statements of the panelists, they never should be: The cause is to help those who are committed to living an Orthodox lifestyle while struggling with a severe test, which by definition a gay marriage could not be. Instead, the issues are more similar to those perhaps of discrimination, or more likely those of social ostracism and other social and familial relationships.

What was particularly interesting, however, was the overall consistency of the responses put forth from all over, with the summary being along the lines of: "That must be incredibly difficult, and we feel horrible for their impossible plight. If they're not acting on it, that's amazing, and good for them - I can't possibly imagine how hard that must be; if they are, it's something that needs to be condemned, not condoned. But did this need to be made into a public issue at all?" This is similar to the letter put out by some of the YU Roshei Yeshiva the morning of the event and also the letter YU's President Richard Joel put out along with the RIETS menahel (principal), R' Yona Reiss, after the event:
[...] Of course, as was indicated in a message issued by our Roshei Yeshiva, those struggling with this issue require due sensitivity, although such sensitivity cannot be allowed to erode the Torah's unequivocal condemnation of such activity. Sadly, as we have discovered, public gatherings addressing these issues, even when well-intentioned, could send the wrong message and obscure the Torah's requirements of halakhic behavior and due modesty. [...] We are committed to providing halakhic guidance and sensitivity with respect to all challenges confronted by individuals within our broader community, including homosexual inclinations, in a discreet, dignified and appropriate fashion.
Perhaps, however, the point was most clearly made by one of the panelists himself, when discussing his friends' reactions:
I told one friend and he was cool with it, but he would say ‘you can’t tell so-and-so because he’s too religious.’ So I went for it, next person I told was him and he was even better about it. And he said, ‘But you can’t tell so-and-so’ where it became this game. If only everybody even today knows how okay with it the next person was- truthfully it really surprised me. My friends are amazing.
It seems that people assume there to be a huge swell of homophobia and lack of tolerance within the Orthodox community to homosexuals - but that in truth, this just is not the case. There is certainly a lack of tolerance to or acceptance of homosexual actions, and anything which seems to condone this will immediately be shunned by the frum world - an appropriate reaction even according to at least some if not all of the panelists and presenters. Such a reaction would likely be similar to the one people would have to those who would openly break Shabbos or otherwise act in a way that was clearly against a major precept of Torah observance; in fact, people who have turned away from observant Judaism can likely confirm this to be true. While there may be eventual acceptance of "this is who he/she is" when a person leaves Orthodox Judaism, no Orthodox person would likely condone actions that are against Orthodox beliefs and imply that they acceptable within the Orthodox camp.

Instead of homophobia, however, it seems that gays and lesbians within the Orthodox world, when it actually comes down to it, are met predominantly with acceptance and usually a quiet sympathy. The assumption of intolerance just does not seem to match the actual reactions people have when faced with the situation. Much like in the outside world, when it comes to practical differences the gay population has with the straight population, there's not really anything there. Much like in the outside world (hat tip: Charlie Hall in the comments on Hirhurim), there's a clear level of acceptance that is particularly there among the younger generation. And much like in the outside world, it's hard to say that additional discussion would advance anything more that is positive for gays and lesbians, particularly as that translates into the Orthodox Jewish world.

In the end, it comes back to what the panelists themselves hoped to accomplish with this event, and that's difficult to say. If it was about understanding and sympathy, it is unclear what was accomplished; it seems that this understanding and sympathy was already there, certainly among the crowd that was drawn to the event and almost assuredly in the crowds that have been discussing it. The panelists seemed to feel that most of the Rabbonim they approached about their struggles reacted surprisingly well, and that the same was true of their peers. Typically it was families who reacted the worst, at least initially, but this is not particularly surprising in a community which prides itself often on its future plans and progeny and suddenly learns that this will not be happening as they may have been imagining it. All in all, it seems doubtful that the panel will have made much of an impact in how people view gays and lesbians in those terms.*

Some of the arguments people have for turning this into a public issue revolve around comparing it to other issues that were taboo or ignored in the Orthodox world until people forced them on the public until they finally started dealing with them. The primary flaw in this argument, however, is that there's extremely little the public can actually do in this case. As opposed to agunos**, publicly discussing homosexuality will not be placing pressure on others to help right a wrong that was committed. As opposed to molestation, discussion will not create awareness of a problem in order to protect children. As opposed to abuse, a public event will not help those who are getting hurt find a place to escape to to avoid that hurt. With homosexuality, it is a private and personal issue which the public cannot well relate to and where the public is almost completely powerless to help beyond what they are already doing at this point in history.

Ten or twenty years ago, this panel would have helped bring about incredible change by speeding up the acceptance of individuals who are gay or lesbian by their friends and relatives by helping them understand what they go through at a time when people really didn't understand well enough what being gay or lesbian meant. In December 2009, however, there doesn't seem to be that fundamental unawareness in the Orthodox community. The creation of such a panel and the promotion of groups that promote additional tolerance seem unlikely to create more tolerance but far more likely to create an impression (whether intended by its creators or not) of an acceptance of homosexuality that perhaps goes beyond just sympathy and understanding. That there was so much confusion as to this point even at YU seems to show an obvious lack of clarity as to where the lines are drawn in Orthodoxy, despite the panel's best efforts to mark those lines. While perhaps R' Student's warning of an upcoming leftward shift are overstated, he is certainly not wrong in seeing how this event can be used as a catapult for such a shift. Moreover, there are undoubtedly those who will use this event as a springboard to accepting homosexuality to a greater level than it should be, despite the best intentions of the planners of this event and the pronouncements of those who appeared.

Ten or twenty years ago, this panel could have been incredibly important and made a positive impact on the Orthodox Jewish community. Now, its potential for change is far more toward paths that most of the panelists and presenters themselves would deem completely unacceptable in Orthodoxy - and that's a shame.

* To preemptively discuss, the argument of "discussion shows positive impact" is a somewhat ridiculous comment in a context such as this, as discussion having a positive impact is true when there is a desire for some type of change to occur. As there is no such change being sought here, it turns into a circular "discussion is good because it's discussion, and that's good" argument.

** The comparisons of homosexuality to issues such as agunos are actually disturbing and somewhat despicable, in that they cheapen the plight faced by the various victims in those situations. Agunos receive public support for two primary reasons: 1) They were hurt by members of the community who are abusing the halachic system to shackle them, and therefore the community feels a responsibility to show the person that the community as a whole cares for them. 2) Publicizing the issue hopefully helps to force the 'husband' to send a get to her that otherwise he would not have. Molestation was made into a public issue to instill greater fear and responsibility in our schools and others to help stop abuse from happening in the first place and to encourage victims to speak up and families to not view it as taboo to do so, in order to punish the perpetrators and protect others from becoming victims as well. To compare situations like these to homosexuality is absurd - there is no unwilling victim and there is no outside factor playing a role that the community can help with.

22 comments:

  1. I don’t mean for this to be a plug, but please read what I had to say on it. Homosexuality is an issue our community should deal with and address. IT is real and people struggle terribly with it. I think that until this past week and the panel many people, including myself, wrote off the issues all together. After reading the transcripts it is clear that these people are suffering. Is this something we wish for anyone in our society. The panel did not condone mishkav zachar, and it should not, it's clear that is assur. However it did bring light to the fact that there exists this issue in our community, one that we have not addressed and one that affects a portion of people. The reaction from some in YU has been (expected) and very questionable, including the letter from Richard Joel. How many of the Roshei Yeshiva who were at this meeting have had students come to them about this problem? I would venture a guess at none. Yet if you speak to a high school rebbe or guidance counselor they can tell you that this is a real issue in our community and one that they see kids struggling with. To deny it exists, which until this panel many did, is living with your head in the sand which YU and the Modern Orthodox community is above.

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  2. i do have sympathy for orthodox people who consider themselves homosexual (at least in theory, not action) but
    1. why are these people heroes? anytime any one of suppress a desire for aveiros that we have, we are doing the same thing they are. i dont mean to be simplistic, and i understand the myriad of different levels that this discussion can go, but i think a public rally makes these people into heroes, when they are not. it does seem, as serandez says, that most people they approached were pretty sypathetic about it, including rabbis. so, a more private setting could have worked.

    2. how about if i start a club where i tell everyone that i have this burning desire to be mechalel shabbos (or insert other aveirah- want another guy's wife etc.) does this make sense? no! in judaism we dont make separate categories of yidden. we all have taivos and the torah expects us to suppress them, however hard that is.

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  3. Honestly Frum - There's a difference between being sympathetic but realizing that there is little the general Jewish Orthodox public can do and denying that there is a problem. No one is saying there are no real Jewish homosexuals, and no one is saying there are no struggles here. However, that also doesn't mean that there's something practical we, as the Orthodox Jewish community, can do. All we can do, really, is be sympathetic, which we already are.

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  4. Erachet, I would not agree that most people are sympathetic. In fact, most are probably not. If this event made more people sympathetic, isn't that a positive result?

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  5. I would say most of the OJs I know, granted they are black hatters, are anti-gay. period.

    In addition, many of them simply say, that the gay inclination is like any other inclination (that many straight people may have) which needs to be CONTROLLED. Just like yankel does not shtup the shiksa he is attracted to, so to, the gay should control his/her urges.

    I am not arguing this, I am telling you what the rank and file frummies feel.

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  6. I think this is a terrible post. Way to belittle the plight these people are going through. Shameful post.

    And for the record, this event was very important. First of all, even if many people were already sympathetic to the issue, it's important for all of us to know that each other is like-minded -- which you agree we didn't know beforehand. Second, you're wrong in thinking that this event doesn't change minds. The best way to win over hearts and minds is through stories such as those shared at this event; stories that speak in the first-person and put a sympathetic and very personal touch to the issue. This type of direct connection goes a very long way towards winning over the silent majority, many of whom still instinctively react negatively to anything involving homosexuality and homosexuals. Third, the YU event has spawned video, transcripts, blog posts, newspaper articles, and other means to disseminate this important information to a broader audience.

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  8. I feel bad that they struggle with such plights, it is unfortunate for anyone to be in pain, but I do not think there should be an open forum...Do people who were observant Jews make a forum on how hard it is now to be around family and friends who are? NO! Again I feel bad they are ostracized and those who become depressed, those who develop identity issues(if they haven't already) and those who develop anxiety disorders, but I do not feel bad for them as a Jew...they are openly doing something antithetical to Torah and its values...

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  9. they are openly doing something antithetical to Torah and its values...

    Well, not if they don't act on it, they're not.

    Still, I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with a public event like that. I would think this is a private issue for those who are homosexual and their family and friends. That's not to say everyone else shouldn't be sympathetic, I just don't see that there's anything practical to do and, therefore, aside from feeling sympathy, I'm not sure I see the point to public events like this one. And the panelists did say that although they were afraid people wouldn't be accepting of them, it turned out that whoever they came out to accepted them, even the ones deemed "too frum" and, if anything, they developed better relationships with some of those people. So I'm not sure there's as much homophobia out there as is believed when it really comes down to it.

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  10. I wish I lived in your Jewish world. In my Jewish world, I hear anti-gay comments all the time, comments that can in no way be construed as "hate the sin love the sinner" but make it clear that someone with an attraction to the same sex is personally a toeivah even if they do not take any actions that are assur. In my Jewish world, a panel about students struggling to keep halacha in the face of an emotional need that halacha cannot accomodate was mocked by posters making a comparison to bestiality.

    Of course the panelists found their friends to be sympathetic (and in some cases rabbis, although some of the panelists told horror stories about rabbis too). There are plenty of people who are decent, tolerant human beings. That doesn't mean everyone is.

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  11. ARGH. I just wrote responses to everyone, and of course my browser crashed. Take two.

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  12. I'm going to try and recall all that I wrote previously; if I don't address an important point someone made, it's likely because I thought I already did. Please don't hesitate to follow up. Thanks.

    HF - However it did bring light to the fact that there exists this issue in our community, one that we have not addressed and one that affects a portion of people.

    Did it really bring anything to light? What do we know now that we did not a week ago? And how exactly should it be addressed? More talking about how we need to "do" something? I fail to see what this added and what it was expected to accomplish.

    How many of the Roshei Yeshiva who were at this meeting have had students come to them about this problem? I would venture a guess at none.

    Why? [Especially in light of the HS Rebbe/guidance counselor comment.]

    To deny it exists, which until this panel many did

    Why do you think anyone did?


    NYF - 1) Agreed. While I don't know that people view them as heroes per se, I don't see how a public setting added anything here.

    2) I'm not sure I agree (or disagree) with what you're saying. While certainly one can argue on one side that nobody can measure anyone else's struggles, and one person's struggle with (say) loshon hara or whatever may be as hard as someone else's with homosexuality, we do compare different struggles all the time and view some as more difficult than others. Not being able to pursue things which are viewed as central pieces to a fulfilling Orthodox life (marriage, family, etc.) can easily be understood as a much more difficult test than 'normal'.


    Erachet - Exactly.

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  13. Tesyaa - I would not agree that most people are sympathetic. In fact, most are probably not.

    Again, what is this based on? Certainly not the experiences of the panelists. Ask around to people you well in a discussion how they'd truly react if a family member or close friend outed themselves. Anyplace I've gone and with anyone I've had a discussion with I've heard nothing but sympathy and lines such as "I can't imagine how hard that must be".


    Bankman - I would say most of the OJs I know, granted they are black hatters, are anti-gay. period.

    Again, based on...? Anti-gay in what way? I offer you the same challenge as tesyaa - ask someone how they would deal with it in such a situation.

    In addition, many of them simply say, that the gay inclination is like any other inclination (that many straight people may have) which needs to be CONTROLLED.

    ...but this is exactly what the panelists themselves said. The purpose of the panel was partially to show how difficult their lives are because of this as it's so central to who a person is. If you're saying it does not need to be, then you're implicitly (or perhaps explicitly) condoning behavior that is antithetical to Orthodoxy.


    Adam - I think this is a terrible post. Way to belittle the plight these people are going through. Shameful post.

    I fail to see any point in this post where anyone or anyone's plight was belittled in any way. Please point out any specific line where you feel this occurred.

    First of all, even if many people were already sympathetic to the issue, it's important for all of us to know that each other is like-minded -- which you agree we didn't know beforehand.

    That's circular: Why does anyone need to know that everyone else is like-minded? What purpose does that serve? What does confirmation of this accomplish other than showing it was unnecessary?

    Second, you're wrong in thinking that this event doesn't change minds. The best way to win over hearts and minds is through stories such as those shared at this event; stories that speak in the first-person and put a sympathetic and very personal touch to the issue. This type of direct connection goes a very long way towards winning over the silent majority, many of whom still instinctively react negatively to anything involving homosexuality and homosexuals.

    ...changing minds? In what way? Winning people over in what way? To react positively to homosexuality? The most proper approach, as clearly stated by the presenters, seems to be a large dose of sympathy - which it seems there already was. To expect positivity seems silly; how can an Orthodox world view homosexuality itself positively by definition? We can only sympathize with their plight. There is nothing practical to "do" - this is not abuse or the like.

    Third, the YU event has spawned video, transcripts, blog posts, newspaper articles, and other means to disseminate this important information to a broader audience.

    That's circular as well: It was right and important because people passed it on? What important information was passed on to the broader audience?

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  14. Anon/Erachet - If we assume as at least a couple of the panelists made clear that we're primarily discussing those who do NOT act upon it, agreed that it still does not make sense that this needed to be a public forum. As Erachet said, there's nothing to "do" other than be sympathetic, and as Anon is hinting at, however sympathetic we may be, openly discussing it can implicitly condone even if the panelists themselves may explicitly condemn.


    LZ - Again, please try the same suggestion I gave other above: How would you handle a gay friend or family member? Why do you say "of course the panelists found their friends to be sympathetic" - why is that an of course? If the assumption is that in the Jewish world people are not accepting or sympathetic, why would these people's friends be the exceptions? And where were the horror stories? I didn't see too many - certainly not in the past ten years.

    There are plenty of people who are decent, tolerant human beings. That doesn't mean everyone is.

    Is there a minority of people who will not ever accept even the idea that someone is gay? Sure. Is a panel even a step on the path to changing their minds, let alone something that itself will do so? Not at all. If anything, it's just the opposite.

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  15. In support of those who feel the panel was extremely important: there were at least two people I noticed who commented in various places online saying that they used to have no sympathy at all for people who were homosexual, and after this event their feelings on the subject have totally changed, that it was so worth going to the event just for that, etc. I saw that in more than one place.

    However, I still feel like the majority of the people at the panel already felt sympathetic. Additionally, if those people were so affected by the panel, then even without having gone to the panel, if they ever became friends with someone who was gay, or if they found out someone they are close to is gay, upon hearing this person's plight, they would probably be just as sympathetic. And that's what's really important - the people close to you. Anonymous others...does it really matter? So long as you don't feel you are ostracized or anything
    by people in authority in various places.

    Because there's nothing practical to be done, it doesn't matter that I, Erachet, who does not know most homosexuals out there, would feel sympathetic to them. My sympathy doesn't really mean much because I don't even know them. Just as long as I don't go making obnoxious comments about gay people. They don't feel my sympathy - they don't even know me or interact with me
    I'm not saying I shouldn't or you shouldn't or anyone shouldn't feel sympathetic.
    I just don't think we need a whole movement of sympathizers who can do nothing except say, "I'm really sorry."

    If I have a difficult struggle in my life, I'm not going to go on the radio and talk about it so that everyone listening can feel sorry for me. I'm going to turn to the people who are actually IN my life.
    That's why it's a private struggle, not a public one.

    The only sort of public thing I can think of - and that's not even really public - that is important
    is for someone who has dealt with being homosexual and found a way to balance that with leading a frum life to talk to others who are suffering the same thing
    as inspiration, guidance, etc. But that would be meant for people actually going through that struggle.

    I do believe it is extremely important for people to be sensitive and sympathetic if someone they know turns out to be gay. However, this is a personal issue, not one the public can actually do anything about.

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  16. Why is it a private issue????!!!! If someone who is gay/homosexual gets married, is it a private issue?? Would anyone here be sympathetic to he gay/homosexual who got married? Would anyone want to be married to/want their daughter/son/sister/brother. etc. to be married to someone like that???

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  17. Anonymous - private does not mean hidden.

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  18. Erachet, and assuming it is private and not hidden (which it usually is, otherwise there would never have been any gathering about it...), how do you think it should be dealt with from within the community?

    In addition, this subject has become popular due to the fact that in the secular world, this has become a very "hot" issue and this lifestyle has become very acceptable and even somewhat endorsed! I think it is very important for ALL Rabbis (and communities) to come out severely against it publicly as it is an explicit Issur in the Torah with a punishment of Skilla!!! (the above has nothing to do with the fact that if someone personally comes over to a Rav and tells them he has a problem, of course the Rabbi should try and help and not just bash him, unless the Rav knows that this way will help the person)

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  19. Erachet, and assuming it is private and not hidden (which it usually is, otherwise there would never have been any gathering about it...), how do you think it should be dealt with from within the community?

    That's just it. I don't think it can be "dealt with" from within the community. We as a larger community don't have any answers for someone dealing with homosexuality. It's a personal issue one should turn to rabbonim, family, and friends for guidance. Each person is different, each situation is difference, and there is much that can't really be allowed according to Halacha. That's why it's a sensitive, personal issue.

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  20. There is a lot to be said for the way the roshei yeshiva handled this.

    The gist (and I encourage everyone to listen to the original, any mistakes here are my own) of the response in the YU Beis yesterday was that we don't celebrate urges that are assur, not do we celebrate people who have these urges. That people have these feelings is not something to be celebrated in public, nor should people identify themselves by the urges that they have in public. This shows not only an acceptance of a categorization of people by the urges for sin that they have, but the acceptance of a lifestyle that is categorized by an urge or action that is counter to halacha. As the roshei yeshiva said, we cannot hold anything against or think differently of people who attended this session, but the holding of this session was a violation of not only a torah view or reality, but showcased a lack of sensitivity to tsnius, a principle of primary importance to torah observance and the observant lifestyle.

    To hear the incredible response as recorded in the YU Beis, and render your own informed judgment, please listen to the original here - http://www.vosizneias.com/45816/2009/12/30/new-york-city-yeshiva-university-rabbis-students-decry-gay-fourm-calling-it-a-chillul-hashem

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  21. Rabbi Mayer Twersky's response:

    click here

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