tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post5144041627759337101..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Labels & JudgmentalismEzziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-83974841834481531352007-11-18T08:50:00.000-05:002007-11-18T08:50:00.000-05:00Anon - Seriously. Bloggish is like a huge plus!Dia...Anon - Seriously. Bloggish is like a huge plus!<BR/><BR/>Diana - No, clergy don't admit to being bloggish.<BR/><BR/>Anon Mom - We're working on it. :)<BR/><BR/>Jameel - Wait, you married a Jew?!<BR/><BR/>Anon Mom - LOL. Ouch... I noted last week to a friend that a "profile" of me would sound atrocious.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-75857493139456049892007-11-18T07:28:00.000-05:002007-11-18T07:28:00.000-05:00My name was too "Yeshivish/Old Worldish" for the g...My name was too "Yeshivish/Old Worldish" for the guys I met on the Upper West Side. Also, I lived at home, yikes! Also, I didn't know how to ski. In the Yeshivish world, I was "Miss Goes to Movies Occasionally, Won't Rule Out T.V."<BR/>Boy, those years were sure a heck of a lot of fun!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-74340185641204478392007-11-18T07:25:00.000-05:002007-11-18T07:25:00.000-05:00With a name like Jameel, it's a miracle I ever got...With a name like Jameel, it's a miracle I ever got married (to a frum woman)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-37217785162396147992007-11-18T06:56:00.000-05:002007-11-18T06:56:00.000-05:00I didn't read all the comments. I suspect I agree...I didn't read all the comments. I suspect I agree with most of them, but here's where the movement should be:<BR/>Rise up, people, and help these people meet! These people need to be given venues to just mix and mingle and make decisions for themselves. We arranged a few of these events for singles who skewed to the right (obviously, not super right wing) and it was nice for everyone. Where? In KGH of course. Tried it in Wesley Hills too. It was nice. Some marriages resulted. Meet and Greets. Marrieds help introduce people if they want help. Otherwise, food and socializing. No pretense. Try it in your neck of the woods.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-15591804737061853512007-11-16T12:50:00.000-05:002007-11-16T12:50:00.000-05:00Isn't bloggishness the first question that clergy ...Isn't bloggishness the first question that clergy ask before performing a wedding?Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14621768233627156896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-31665059312560190032007-11-16T12:47:00.000-05:002007-11-16T12:47:00.000-05:00People need to make it known if they're bloggish o...People need to make it known if they're bloggish or not. It could matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-58564743597380395422007-11-16T12:33:00.000-05:002007-11-16T12:33:00.000-05:00Scraps - Exactly.Apple - :P and right.SaraK - Woo!...Scraps - Exactly.<BR/><BR/>Apple - :P and right.<BR/><BR/>SaraK - Woo! You chimed in! :)<BR/><BR/><I>I only set us nice people, so I like to let the couple figure it out on their own if they are compatible. I date all kinds of guys and I can truly say that you never know who you will click with. All the external things usually end up falling by the wayside when you are with a nice person who treats you right.</I><BR/><BR/>Amen, amen, amen.<BR/><BR/><I>Then the kids go out, ostensibly already thinking that this could be the one.</I><BR/><BR/>True. (and heh on the next part :P) <BR/><BR/>And amen on the rest, too.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-73669081701571662592007-11-16T11:45:00.000-05:002007-11-16T11:45:00.000-05:00OK, I am joining in way too late for the discussio...OK, I am joining in way too late for the discussion, but of course, I agree with you, Ezzie. I set up lots of people, and I am not into giving over FBI-style background info. I only set us nice people, so I like to let the couple figure it out on their own if they are compatible. I date all kinds of guys and I can truly say that you never know who you will click with. All the external things usually end up falling by the wayside when you are with a nice person who treats you right. <BR/><BR/>The problem with the shidduch system nowadays is that the parents don't want (or don't trust) their kids to be making their own decisions. So they look for a potential date whose background/look etc. matches theirs and the shidduch "makes sense" on paper. Then the kids go out, ostensibly already thinking that this could be the one. The kids are raised not to question what they are taught so how much is there to discuss anyway? {/sarcasm off}<BR/><BR/>If everyone would develop their own hashkafot, 2 people would be able to go on a date and discuss things maturely and see if their life's goals are compatible and the parents wouldn't have so much say in all the silly outside things.SaraKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08053908720926177402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-26865904086980299082007-11-16T11:33:00.000-05:002007-11-16T11:33:00.000-05:00Wow, Ezzie, 51 comments ... catching up on the anx...Wow, Ezzie, 51 comments ... catching up on the anxious/need post :P<BR/><BR/><EM>If someone can't explain a label, then how much meaning can it really have?</EM><BR/>Not so much.the applehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756184353010645018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-25527827187192702032007-11-16T11:18:00.000-05:002007-11-16T11:18:00.000-05:00I agree with what most people have said about labe...I agree with what most people have said about labels so far. And what about those people who don't fit into a neat little label? For instance, a friend was once trying to describe another friend, and she said to me, "It not that she's yeshivish, cuz she's not. She's just very frum." But unfortunately, people like that tend to get labeled anyway, which leads to people making incorrect assumptions about who they are.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-51798243894199313142007-11-16T10:52:00.000-05:002007-11-16T10:52:00.000-05:00iPay - Agreed. I'm talking about someone who treat...iPay - Agreed. I'm talking about someone who treats it as a given vs. trying to correct one's character. I think the latter is far more difficult.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-86315197711059124452007-11-16T10:45:00.000-05:002007-11-16T10:45:00.000-05:00Ezzie, Northern - I am not disagreeing with you - ...Ezzie, Northern - <BR/>I am not disagreeing with you - improving one's character is incredibly difficult and often a life-long pursuit. But some women struggle in the worst way to cover their hair and wear skirts because this is what they think is the right thing to do. You can NOT undermine the struggle that these women go through!. I am not (G-d forbid) implying that women who do not cover their hair and wear pants have "given up on a battle" but some women feel that for them personally it is the right thing to do and for them every day is a battle.iPaytoomuchformyhairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119153255825431546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-47312093437739307972007-11-16T10:22:00.000-05:002007-11-16T10:22:00.000-05:00These I think are just stupid. Half the time, if y...<I>These I think are just stupid. Half the time, if you would ask someone to really define what they mean by that, they would only be able to give some vague answer with a lot of hand-waving or all the sub-labels would mean the same things.</I><BR/><BR/>That's another interesting point. If someone can't explain a label, then how much meaning can it really have?Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-80844431234351758512007-11-16T10:21:00.000-05:002007-11-16T10:21:00.000-05:00Corner - (Woo! :) ) That's a very interesting ques...Corner - (Woo! :) ) That's a very interesting question. I think that by definition, the more subtle labels are going to have both a weaker positive and negative effect. Because they are less of a label, they don't give that broad picture that a [properly used] label would... but they also might help in that they're more specific and therefore less of a broad label. Ya know? :)<BR/><BR/>Chana - Nu? So write it out! :DEzziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-33106091397208144092007-11-16T10:11:00.000-05:002007-11-16T10:11:00.000-05:00but the labels you discussed, Ezzie, are major one...<EM> but the labels you discussed, Ezzie, are major ones; the kinds of labels that tend to sum up the person being labeled in one or two words.</EM><BR/>Depends. See Moshe's <A HREF="http://wildtumor.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">post</A> for an excellent discussion on the weight people attach to certain labels.<BR/><BR/><EM>What about the more subtle labels-inside-labels? Like labeling someone within the chareidi circle as "balbatish" vs. "heimish" or "yeshivish"?</EM><BR/>These I think are just stupid. Half the time, if you would ask someone to really define what they mean by that, they would only be able to give some vague answer with a lot of hand-waving or all the sub-labels would mean the same things.the applehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756184353010645018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-25686996875032136762007-11-16T10:03:00.000-05:002007-11-16T10:03:00.000-05:00SL - I remember seeing a couple in Israel; he was ...SL - I remember seeing a couple in Israel; he was Chassidish, she was... well, clearly not. But they were so clearly into one another, it was really nice.<BR/><BR/>RM - Hehe. I'm sure that if a lot of the things about either Ser or myself had been given to people who know us to set us up, they'd have thrown the idea out the window.<BR/><BR/><I>I guess because we met on our own, and RD wasn't really looking to meet someone and get married per se at that point, a lot of the "initial screening" stuff took a backseat.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly! That's exactly what happened with us. I wasn't looking whatsoever (see the How I Met Serach series!), so it was a completely different thing.<BR/><BR/><I>Likely, those that need to hear these ideas the most and apply them are either not reading this or not open to it. But it's good to know that SerandEz is doing its part to better the world :) And I mean that genuinely. Yasher Koach.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you very much. :) And see the top post... ya never know! :DEzziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-604438717674619862007-11-16T09:54:00.000-05:002007-11-16T09:54:00.000-05:00Diana - :PErachet - :)SJ - [bows]Irina - Absolutel...Diana - :P<BR/><BR/>Erachet - :)<BR/><BR/>SJ - [bows]<BR/><BR/>Irina - Absolutely. If the person is completely uninterested, why even bother? They're going to go in with a negative attitude and it wouldn't work anyway.<BR/><BR/>SE - <I>I think that alot of the use of labels is to cover up for the fact the they don't know the person you're asking them about all that well.</I><BR/><BR/>That's a <B>really</B> interesting point. I think that the better you know someone, the harder it is to even use labels; any label you want to use you immediately reject because you know it doesn't apply so well. I don't think I use many labels to describe people I know well; I just talk about them.<BR/><BR/>Northern Light - I absolutely agree on the idea that people will give up certain things for someone they love. Of course, if you know it's something a person will NOT give up, then there wouldn't be a point.<BR/><BR/><I>When pairing people for shidduchim, better to err on the side of positivity and possibility than close off something before it starts.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly! See, this is why I wish I could write well. :)<BR/><BR/><I>BTW, I wear pants and don't cover my hair--but do take halacha seriously. I know I fall short in many ways; since my husband doesn't want me to cover my hair, and likes me in (women's!) pants, I'm working on character mitzvot--which are perhaps even more difficult to master than wearing a wig or a skirt.</I><BR/><BR/>My mom wore pants for a few years after my parents were married (and in Brooklyn! must've been the effect of living there :P ), and still wears short sleeves and doesn't cover her hair. Character mitzvos are definitely far harder, and to master even one of those is far more impressive than wearing a wig. (Though honestly, those wigs look so complicated....!)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-62227660303944945422007-11-16T00:32:00.000-05:002007-11-16T00:32:00.000-05:00Oy vey.All I can say is, HaShem was our shadchan.I...Oy vey.<BR/><BR/>All I can say is, HaShem was our shadchan.<BR/><BR/>If you could compare how we were then to how we are now, well... you'd want to hear the story... LOL...<BR/><BR/>And I don't mean from when we got married 10+ years ago - go back to when we met 15 years ago, for REAL laughs!have popcorn will lurkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03200484265589054583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1332582839637480572007-11-15T23:30:00.000-05:002007-11-15T23:30:00.000-05:00I agree with most of what everyobody commented abo...I agree with most of what everyobody commented about the annoyances and stupidities--and sometimes even horror--of labeling, but the labels you discussed, Ezzie, are major ones; the kinds of labels that tend to sum up the person being labeled in one or two words.<BR/><BR/>What about the more subtle labels-inside-labels? Like labeling someone within the chareidi circle as "balbatish" vs. "heimish" or "yeshivish"? (I can't come up with examples from any other circles...if anyone would care to educate me, I'd be delighted...)<BR/><BR/>How do you feel about those kinds of labeling? To me they're sort of a joke, as they tend to change in meaning day by day, but would you categorize those kinds of labels as equally irrelevant and detrimental or equally as helpful as the more major forms?<BR/><BR/>(Happy now, Ezzie? :-p)corner pointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15649503886368361215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-80166530154446590532007-11-15T22:16:00.000-05:002007-11-15T22:16:00.000-05:00Having met RaggedyDad "on our own," I'm not sure e...Having met RaggedyDad "on our own," I'm not sure either of us would have expected to be married to someone Russian or American-Israeli respectively, among other characteristics. (File those under life's pleasant surprises).<BR/><BR/>Funnily enough, early on when we were dating, someone thought they were doing RD a favor by making sure to warn him that I "wear pants" (actually, I did until a couple of years before that, but didn't at that point). To him, it wasn't a deal-breaker, and in reality, it was no longer even accurate. I guess I say funnily enough because the person who said it is only questionably frum nowadays altogether.<BR/><BR/>I guess because we met on our own, and RD wasn't really looking to meet someone and get married per se at that point, a lot of the "initial screening" stuff took a backseat. <BR/><BR/>I think a lot of the points made here are very solid. Likely, those that need to hear these ideas the most and apply them are either not reading this or not open to it. But it's good to know that SerandEz is doing its part to better the world :) And I mean that genuinely. Yasher Koach.RaggedyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01022064984702182705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-69448380988618314402007-11-15T22:00:00.000-05:002007-11-15T22:00:00.000-05:00I once was in a National Park when a man in black ...I once was in a National Park when a man in black and white, tzizit hanging out, walked by with his wife, in a pair of loose pants and a cute beret, and some kids. At the time, I don't think it hit me how interesting they looked together.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-78901145253091066332007-11-15T21:48:00.000-05:002007-11-15T21:48:00.000-05:00You're right, labels are unavoidable. But in a shi...You're right, labels are unavoidable. But in a shittuch situation, AVOID THEM!! Labels tend to prejudice or eliminate possibilities. A woman who wear pants, for example, might be willing to give them up if the man she respects/loves/wants prefers her not to wear them. When pairing people for shidduchim, better to err on the side of positivity and possibility than close off something before it starts. Let the potential couple be the ones to decide if it can work out, as long as both people take halacha seriously.<BR/> BTW, I wear pants and don't cover my hair--but do take halacha seriously. I know I fall short in many ways; since my husband doesn't want me to cover my hair, and likes me in (women's!) pants, I'm working on character mitzvot--which are perhaps even more difficult to master than wearing a wig or a skirt.Northern Lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15969094667907320393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-21648788909095544302007-11-15T17:55:00.000-05:002007-11-15T17:55:00.000-05:00I think that alot of the use of labels is to cover...I think that alot of the use of labels is to cover up for the fact the they don't know the person you're asking them about all that well.<BR/><BR/>Labels are just an easy way to describe someone, and the lack of detail is a convenient cover for lack of knowledge.<BR/><BR/>Either way I'm a big fan of finding most of this stuff out by yourself. But that's me I'll try anythingSpecial Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00597292243685024240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-52721901780112922052007-11-15T17:33:00.000-05:002007-11-15T17:33:00.000-05:00"That having been said, do use some judgement (the..."That having been said, do use some judgement (the good kind) when setting people up - just because they're both tall, or Sephardi, or their mothers work in the same field doesn't mean that two people are necessarily a good match."<BR/><BR/>Excellent point - I've seen that so many times, well-meaning relatives/friends insisting you go out on a date with someone who is "a great match", without knowing a thing about what you're looking for, and not knowing what the other person is looking for either.<BR/><BR/>Worse yet are the situations when you say outright why you are not interested (after hearing a short description, and continuing to insist that you go out anyway and "maybe it will work out - the worst case is you don't go out again", forgetting that maybe you have better things to do than to go out even once with people who are clearly not right for you based on what you're interested in. I personally had a number of cases where people have tried to talk me out of what I was interested in just so they could set me up with the person I had in mind (i.e. someone younger than me, still in college, whose interests are drinking, partying, poker, and women in that order - and when I politely, refused, saying that I'm not interested in younger guys and explained why, tried to get me to change my mind on that issue, instead of just accepting that I'm NOT INTERESTED).Irina Tsukermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964771563778702009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-30714254171151015312007-11-15T17:30:00.000-05:002007-11-15T17:30:00.000-05:00Right on, Ezzie. Round of applause.Right on, Ezzie. Round of applause.SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085726186055340423noreply@blogger.com