tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post3652224439266701151..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Don't Compliment DatesEzziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-75146400094958962642008-06-18T08:44:00.000-04:002008-06-18T08:44:00.000-04:00It was one of three unused introductory scene. No ...It was one of three unused introductory scene. <BR/><BR/>No - ancient China was big on pretty women. Foot binding, makeup, shapely clothing... women weren't good for much else in that society. Looking pretty and popping children. And the scene smacks of modern influence because<BR/><BR/>1. she slaps him and<BR/>2. he regrets offending her<BR/><BR/>though no Chinese husband of the time would have cared less what his wife thought, and no woman would dare raise a hand to any man.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-84092093193886819152008-06-17T12:32:00.000-04:002008-06-17T12:32:00.000-04:00In a deleted betrothal scene from Mulan, the title...<I>In a deleted betrothal scene from Mulan, the title character slaps her intended husband for complimenting her appearance the first time they meet. </I><BR/><BR/>Why do you think the scene was deleted? Perhaps because the screenwriter was looking for an old family value character (like Old China) which would have thought it was rude to compliment appearance? "Old Values" are certainly in line with tzniut. <BR/><BR/>I'm more curious why the scene was removed -- perhaps because the producers thought it was ridiculous that a woman would be offended by such a compliment on a first date? <BR/><BR/>:-)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-68244606748008636862008-06-17T12:26:00.000-04:002008-06-17T12:26:00.000-04:00Xvi, JA - Just for the record, bec nobody will see...Xvi, JA - <BR/>Just for the record, bec nobody will see this anyway:<BR/><BR/>In a deleted betrothal scene from <I>Mulan</I>, the title character slaps her intended husband for complimenting her appearance the first time they meet. <BR/><BR/>Unless <I>Mulan</I> was written by orthodox female daters, women in general object to thinking that their appearance is among the first thing a guy takes note of when deciding to marry her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-49605576550983986102008-06-03T21:48:00.000-04:002008-06-03T21:48:00.000-04:00I seem to be in the minority, but I usually like t...I seem to be in the minority, but I usually like that :)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, i completely agree with G and JA. This is entirely an issue of someone being uncomfortable around someone of the opposite sex. Its been said again, but I'll repeat; it is ENTIRELY standard and accepted to make a perfunctory compliment at the beginning of a date. It is NOT similar to being complimented by a stranger. You got dressed and made-up FOR THIS PERSON! The only reason it feels too intimate is because to most orthodox jewish girls it is a completely alien experience.<BR/><BR/>Thats what was being said before about being "sexually experienced." Its exactly like talking to a boy or girl right after hitting puberty. Suddenly everything becomes over-sexualized and every harmless comment is a clue to some significantly deeper sentiment.<BR/><BR/>Of course it is only my opinion, but being turned off by a compliment on a first date is a tremendous sign of being over-protected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-12265491506628168552008-06-03T17:47:00.000-04:002008-06-03T17:47:00.000-04:00I disagree with bad4 on this one, I don't think da...<I>I disagree with bad4 on this one, I don't think dating would be successful if we all did it with paper bags over our heads.</I><BR/><BR/>OK, it was muddled. I was eager to leave work.<BR/><BR/>I'm talking about the first two dates. You show up to find out if the stuff that it says on paper is right (it usually isn't), and if you can stand to spend two hours with the guy (a personality thing, not a chemistry thing). You could do that easily with a paper bag over your head. With a mouth-hole, of course. Especially if it's a dinner date.<BR/><BR/>After that, when it gets more personal, you are testing personal chemistry, and that's around when personal comments become more appropriate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-87650166572826991762008-06-03T17:14:00.000-04:002008-06-03T17:14:00.000-04:00G, I think people (read, in this case, Erachet) ar...G, I think people (read, in this case, Erachet) are just worried about offending others who disagree with their opinion. Especially in our j-blogging community, where online personas can suddenly become real people (especially if one is a frequenter of la casa SerandEz), some may try to be sensitive (maybe sometimes too sensitive) about how they phrase their repsonses, so as not to offend those they disagree with. <BR/><BR/>Clearly, though, this isn't your approach. :)SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085726186055340423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-72610799565995733242008-06-03T17:12:00.000-04:002008-06-03T17:12:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085726186055340423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-2336651003479309572008-06-03T15:20:00.000-04:002008-06-03T15:20:00.000-04:00Like I said, over-thinking.--I'm not offended, jus...Like I said, over-thinking.<BR/><BR/>--I'm not offended, just frustrated.<BR/><BR/>"how the young women in the frum world view dating" vs. "are there really young women in the frum world who view dating this way?"<BR/><BR/>My fault, I should have known better.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-81617026312287221832008-06-03T15:07:00.000-04:002008-06-03T15:07:00.000-04:00G - What do you want? The nature of your question ...G - What do you want? The nature of your question implied you were asking for "what frum girls do." I gave you my opinion, clarifying that there is no such thing as "how the young women in the frum world view dating" - "the young women" implies a collective whole. If you had asked, "are there really young women in the frum world who view dating this way?" it would have been something else. The way you asked the question required clarification in my answer. I'm sorry if that offended you in any way.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-89110359881675234262008-06-03T14:55:00.002-04:002008-06-03T14:55:00.002-04:00I think that much of the frum community (including...I think that much of the frum community (including myself) understandably feels uncomfortable dealing with issues of sexuality in dating, because there is a fine line between what is normal and healthy and what is inappropriate. It certainly differs on an individual--and community--basis, but I think that overall, Orthodox society needs to become more comfortable dealing with and discussing these issues--of course, with the proper mindset and in the right context.SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085726186055340423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-73258506469872367352008-06-03T14:55:00.001-04:002008-06-03T14:55:00.001-04:00>Public question:Is this really how the young wome...<I>>Public question:<BR/>Is this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?<BR/><BR/>>>What do you mean by the question?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know...what do <I>you</I> think I mean by the question?<BR/><BR/>Come on, I'm asking a direct question in this (and to this) forum related to another comment made in this forum that was part of a discussion in this forum.<BR/>---------<BR/>No, no- of course you are both correct.<BR/><BR/>After re-reading the question it is obvious that what I intended to get back in the comments was a one singular answer meant to convey the feelings of numerous individuals a.k.a. the public. <BR/><BR/>Yes, it's quite clear now that what I was requesting was for some great correspondence to take place off-line and then one agreed upon answer to be placed in the comment thread to stand as the unequivocal stance of all "young women in the frum world" as it relates to their stance on dating vis a vis a compliment from a young man.<BR/><BR/>Give me a break!<BR/><BR/>"She was giving her personal answer and noting she can't say if it's the common one.'<BR/><BR/>Well...duh! That was why I asked in the first place, to see if that was a common view. Hence the "public question".Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-83144603283859639142008-06-03T14:55:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:55:00.000-04:00Cheap shot, nothing to do with the subject at hand...<I>Cheap shot, nothing to do with the subject at hand.</I><BR/><BR/>On the contrary. I think that very "muddleness" is at the heart of beind completely shocked by a simple compliment.<BR/><BR/><I>It's not overwhelming! Sheesh. It's just not appropriate. </I><BR/><BR/>The comment made her "VERY uncomfortable." You're splitting hairs.<BR/><BR/><I>You'd have to be claiming that Orthodox marriages are disasters on a far greater level than others to say that.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, this gets to an interesting point, in that it's hard to know for sure what's better. Certainly the non-Orthodox world has a higher divorce rate, but 1) that could be due to reasons unrelated to premarital dating and 2) lack of divorce is not the only indicator of a good marriage.<BR/><BR/><I>The idea is to have the focus on the rational *first* before trying the emotional aspects.</I><BR/><BR/>It's an interesting idea, and maybe even a good one, but I'm still skeptical that you can "try" the emotional aspects or even some of the rational ones without actually having a relationship.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-58426262009068000792008-06-03T14:40:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:40:00.000-04:00My apologies for not categorically asking each ind...<I>My apologies for not categorically asking each individual person for their particular opinion or qualifying that any forthcoming answer would not be taken as a testimony on behalf of all peoples within the purposely left broad demographic labeled "young women in the frum world".</I><BR/><BR/>Well, you <I>did</I> ask about "young women in the frum world" based on Bad4's response, implying that you were wondering if her answer is true for everyone. So my answer was, essentially, no, of course not, it's different for everyone. <BR/><BR/>And yes, a lot of it is over-thinking. Some of it is just comfort level. It's different for every person. Do I think it's crazy to break up with a guy after a fourth date because he said you look nice? Yes.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-52691469840325770882008-06-03T14:38:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:38:00.000-04:00Because in some ways, the people deciding whether ...<I>Because in some ways, the people deciding whether to get married are as muddled in the head as adolescents are.</I><BR/><BR/>Cheap shot, nothing to do with the subject at hand.<BR/><BR/><I>A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.<BR/><BR/>It's not overwhelming! Sheesh. It's just not appropriate. </I><BR/><BR/>Agreed more with Bad4 on the point, Erachet on the reasoning.<BR/><BR/><I>Therefore, they should both be able to show up with paper bags over their heads and proceed just fine. However, we dress up to show respect for our dating partner and yes, also to not turn them off by being visually unappealing.</I><BR/><BR/>Disagree. You do need to be attracted to your spouse, and it's quite an important factor. Just not THE important factor.<BR/><BR/><I>But he still should not be paying <B>undue</B> attention to appearances - which is an emotional more than rational basis for a decision</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed with that part, emphasis mine.<BR/><BR/><I>And I think that's a terrible idea. The rational mind cannot tell you if you are a good match, it can just tell you if you are a good match on paper. I've had relationships where everything was perfect "on paper," but we just didn't have the chemistry or whatever. Under the shidduch system, I would not have figured that out until after the wedding.</I><BR/><BR/>That's just not true whatsoever. Paper is only good up until the moment you meet. The reason people still date in the Orthodox world, despite pretty much knowing they're compatible in many other ways, is specifically to gauge chemistry and the like. You'd have to be claiming that Orthodox marriages are disasters on a far greater level than others to say that.<BR/><BR/><I>And of course, sometimes we are attracted to people who would be horrible matches for us, so the rational part is important, too. But if anything, it's hard to think rationally if this is the first time you've really talked to a person you're attracted to in your whole life. Maybe that's what the guy meant when he said he found her prettiness "distracting."</I><BR/><BR/>Which is essentially the argument most of the Orthodox world often uses against those who take an extreme view in this regard. But I think that you'll find people who see pretty women all their lives thinking less rationally when dating one. The idea is to have the focus on the rational *first* before trying the emotional aspects.<BR/><BR/><I>In any kind of relationship, including regular friendship, there are always things that you can say once you're closer to someone but not really before.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely agreed with Erachet.<BR/><BR/><I>Public question:<BR/>Is this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?</I><BR/><BR/>What do you mean by the question?<BR/><BR/><I>STOP OVER-THINKING SO MUCH.</I><BR/><BR/>Stop over-responding. She was giving her personal answer and noting she can't say if it's the common one.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-66729028018137757512008-06-03T14:24:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:24:00.000-04:00I can only speak for myself, not for all frum girl...<I>I can only speak for myself, not for all frum girls. I think all of us can really only speak for ourselves.</I><BR/><BR/>Dear Lord...ya think?<BR/><BR/>My apologies for not categorically asking each individual person for their particular opinion or qualifying that any forthcoming answer would not be taken as a testimony on behalf of all peoples within the purposely left broad demographic labeled "young women in the frum world".<BR/><BR/>Geez...see, this is another part of the larger issue of which this whole compliment thing is just another example.<BR/><BR/>STOP OVER-THINKING SO MUCH.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-42736485537802853712008-06-03T14:18:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:18:00.000-04:00the idea that a man who notices a woman's appearan...<I>the idea that a man who notices a woman's appearance is a "pervert."</I><BR/><BR/>the question here is not whether or not he notices. it's whether he says something to her when he notices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-31088829007268422132008-06-03T14:15:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:15:00.000-04:00Public question:Is this really how the young women...<I>Public question:<BR/>Is this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think so. I don't know. What do you consider the "frum world?" As far as I know, we can't generalize. One person feels one way, one feels another. I disagree with bad4 on this one, I don't think dating would be successful if we all did it with paper bags over our heads. I think there needs to be a healthy balance of rational <I>and</I> emotional compatibility. But that's just me. Am I the norm? Am I not the norm? I don't know. I have no idea. I can only speak for myself, not for all frum girls. I think all of us can really only speak for ourselves.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-38928993367348303102008-06-03T14:09:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:09:00.000-04:00Hope that isn't as muddled as I'm afraid it might ...<I>Hope that isn't as muddled as I'm afraid it might be.</I><BR/><BR/>Muddled, no.<BR/>Frightening, yes.<BR/><BR/>Public question:<BR/>Is this really how the young women in the frum world view dating?Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-27009195835169799692008-06-03T14:05:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:05:00.000-04:00A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed ...<I>A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.</I><BR/><BR/>I grew up going to a co-ed summer camp since I was nine and lasting until the summer after my year in Israel. I would still find it kinda weird for a guy I barely knew to compliment me on my looks on, say, the first date. I don't know about after that. <BR/><BR/>I agree that it doesn't really take much studying or scrutinizing to decide whether or not your find your date attractive - at least enough to say, "you look nice." Still, I still see it as a sign of familiarity. In any kind of relationship, including regular friendship, there are always things that you can say once you're closer to someone but not really before. You don't have to be practically engaged in order to compliment each other on looks, I don't think, but I do think it should wait until you're at least familiar enough with each other.<BR/><BR/>Well, at least, this is only my opinion. Feel free to disagree.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-31775450888225622842008-06-03T13:54:00.000-04:002008-06-03T13:54:00.000-04:00Dating, as we would like it to be, is two people d...<I>Dating, as we would like it to be, is two people discussing their future compatibility based on the rational.</I><BR/><BR/>And I think that's a terrible idea. The rational mind cannot tell you if you are a good match, it can just tell you if you are a good match <I>on paper</I>. I've had relationships where everything was perfect "on paper," but we just didn't have the chemistry or whatever. Under the shidduch system, I would not have figured that out until after the wedding.<BR/><BR/>And of course, sometimes we are attracted to people who would be horrible matches for us, so the rational part is important, too. But if anything, it's hard to think rationally if this is the first time you've really talked to a person you're attracted to in your whole life. Maybe that's what the guy meant when he said he found her prettiness "distracting."<BR/><BR/><I>She just thought he shouldn't be looking at her very carefully yet.</I><BR/><BR/>You don't have to look at someone even a little carefully to know you're attracted to him/her or that they are "pretty."Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-81306274115691191922008-06-03T13:48:00.000-04:002008-06-03T13:48:00.000-04:00A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed ...<I>A woman of 19 or 20 years old who grew up in coed environments would have the experience to not be overwhelmed by such an innocuous compliment.</I><BR/><BR/>It's not overwhelming! Sheesh. It's just not appropriate. <BR/><BR/>Dating, as we would like it to be, is two people discussing their future compatibility based on the rational. Therefore, they should both be able to show up with paper bags over their heads and proceed just fine. However, we dress up to show respect for our dating partner and yes, also to not turn them off by being visually unappealing. But he still should not be paying undue attention to appearances - which is an emotional more than rational basis for a decision, certainly not telling us about it until we've proceeded far enough in the relationship that it's worthy of consideration. <BR/><BR/>Hope that isn't as muddled as I'm afraid it might be. <BR/><BR/>My point is, she wasn't turned off because she was overwhelmed by any sexual advance. She just thought he shouldn't be looking at her very carefully yet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-49080440709303529712008-06-03T13:18:00.000-04:002008-06-03T13:18:00.000-04:00Huh? Why is it about that? And why is that a probl...<I>Huh? Why is it about that? And why is that a problem, anyway?</I><BR/><BR/>Because in some ways, the people deciding whether to get married are as muddled in the head as adolescents are.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-15968836333412446182008-06-03T13:17:00.001-04:002008-06-03T13:17:00.001-04:00Oy, wrong thread, sorry.Oy, wrong thread, sorry.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-48116133316257428792008-06-03T13:17:00.000-04:002008-06-03T13:17:00.000-04:00Live by a set of rules yourself, but don't insist ...Live by a set of rules yourself, but don't insist that everybody else live by the same set. For example, I prefer monogamous relationships, and I think they're generally a superior idea. However, if someone else wants to be polygamous, that's up to them. I don't smoke crack, but if someone else wants to, that's his business.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-88533363098569786512008-06-03T13:13:00.000-04:002008-06-03T13:13:00.000-04:00Erachet, but *why* is it considered weird for a st...<I>Erachet, but *why* is it considered weird for a stranger to tell a woman that she looks nice? It isn't in the secular world. I used to know people who would measure the success of a haircut by whether or not strangers told her her hair was pretty as she passed by. I'm not talking about catcalls, just some random person walking up and saying "I just wanted to tell you that you/your hair looks really pretty" and then walking away (so that it wouldn't be mistaken as a come-on).</I><BR/><BR/>...I would find it really creepy if a stranger in the street just walked up to me and told me I looked nice. I suppose I can't explain why. Maybe it has to do with modesty. Maybe it has to do with being a little overprotected. I don't really know. But I know for certain that I would find it really creepy.<BR/><BR/><I>I think this is about the lack of sexual experience</I><BR/><BR/>Huh? Why is it about that? And why is that a problem, anyway?Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.com