tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post116210652414890076..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Are you prepared to lie to the Shadchan about....Ezziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162504282745043102006-11-02T16:51:00.000-05:002006-11-02T16:51:00.000-05:00ezzie,thanks for ruining my night and for giving o...ezzie,<BR/><BR/>thanks for ruining my night and for giving one more reason to be cycnical. sadly, i think we could go back and forth like this to see who knows a worse story pertaining to these matters.<BR/><BR/>happy blogging!Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162503174836058912006-11-02T16:32:00.000-05:002006-11-02T16:32:00.000-05:00That's not all they're hiding, Ari. Click.That's not all they're hiding, Ari. <A HREF="http://serandez.blogspot.com/2006/07/nobody-will-marry-him.html" REL="nofollow">Click</A>.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162441077501821772006-11-01T23:17:00.000-05:002006-11-01T23:17:00.000-05:00ezzie and pobody:as i wrote, i did not mean "discr...ezzie and pobody:<BR/><BR/>as i wrote, i did not mean "discrimination" in a negative way. i should have used a different word but that was what came to mind in my hurry. i fully support pre-marital genetic testing and in retropect i am very upset that our hatan/kallah teachers never raised the matter with us.<BR/><BR/>but as long as we are on the topic of discriminating (in the negative sense) against shiduchim, i think we've all heard the alledged stories of families that hide children with genetic or other serious diseases so as not to harm the chances of siblings getting good matches.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162429512948261522006-11-01T20:05:00.000-05:002006-11-01T20:05:00.000-05:00by the way, in my example i was trying to include ...by the way, in my example i was trying to include what psychotoddler had said.. "Family history, their education, bad habits, physical imperfections"pobody's nerfect.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671975938001698084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162428914096327612006-11-01T19:55:00.000-05:002006-11-01T19:55:00.000-05:00Wow, Pobody, how you've grown! :)I think you actua...Wow, Pobody, how you've grown! :)<BR/><BR/>I think you actually said the exact same things as PsychoToddler...<BR/><BR/><I>When you meet someone, and decide whether it is someone you like, you don't base it on one or two things. <B>You take the good, you counter balance with the bad, and decide how you feel. Yes, there may be a few deal breakers.</B> But when you hear about what people in the shidduch system consider to be "deal breakers," you really have to wonder about where their priorities really are.</I>Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162427724018345772006-11-01T19:35:00.000-05:002006-11-01T19:35:00.000-05:0048 comments? i feel super-popular. my thoughts:ari...48 comments? i feel super-popular. <BR/><BR/>my thoughts:<BR/><BR/>ariK- by "cured" I meant dealt with through therapy (and medication where applicable.) Many people, however, do think of cured as completely free of the disease. Regardless of which answer one chooses, I still understand the view of a person who is wary about marrying someone who suffered from an ED or depression; its taking on the responsibility to help the person remain healthy, and regain health in the event that the ED or depression would relapse at a later time. Not all people are strong enough to take on the challenge. (This is not to say that depresson or EDs can't spring up after marriage without any prior signs; rather, that it is somewhat understandable to be wary going into a marriage knowing that there is a strong chance of a relapse)<BR/>secondly, i agree with ezzie about the genetic testing for fatal diseases such as tay-sachs. All the halachic authorities from whom i've heard opinions say that we have an achrayus to take the "dor yesharim" test (or other equivalents). This is not a breach of emunah because obviously Hashem can make anything happen, and if a couple is supposed to have a child with a disease, Hashem will find a way for it to happen.<BR/><BR/>psychotoddler- i agree, to a point, and i disagree, to a point. Yes, if all the negative qualities of a person were listed out, nobody would ever date anybody. Everyone has deficiencies. Sometimes we need to look away from the deficiencies of another person to see how great s/he really is. HOWEVER. However, everyone has certain qualities which they feel are necessary to have in a spouse. It shouldn't be a three-page long list; three or four qualities are enough. It is essential that one prioritize. For example, (not a personal thought, just a theoretical) "I want my husband to come from a functioning, loving home; however, that is something i'm willing to give up, as long as I hear from his rebbeim/friends/etc that he is emotionally stable despite a difficult family life. It isn't important to me if he is drop dead gorgeous, but I know that I will not be attracted to someone with a facial disfigurement. Since I am 5'9", it's important to me that i marry a tall boy. I absolutely will not date anyone who watches movies, but i dont mind if he did as a child or even in high school. Etc." Yes, it's detailed. Yes, a girl who thinks this will turn down short boys, extremely ugly boys, or boys who watch movies. That is not because she looks down upon short, ugly, or movie-watching boys. It just means that she knows what she needs in order to become the best wife and mother. <BR/><BR/>sigh. these discussions wear me out.pobody's nerfect.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671975938001698084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162419966739383062006-11-01T17:26:00.000-05:002006-11-01T17:26:00.000-05:00Anon - LOLAriK - The examples you gave of "discrim...Anon - LOL<BR/><BR/>AriK - The examples you gave of "discrimination" are not really that: I think it's wrong to discriminate against someone just because they're a carrier, for example. That there are organizations that want to make sure there aren't couples that have high risks of having a child with issues because they're both carriers is very different. Nobody's discriminating against anyone individually; both sides are simply agreeing that this is not a life they want to get into with all the difficulties it entails.<BR/><BR/>PT - Great, great comment. Care to explain it to a few of the young singles we know?<BR/><BR/>I think I'm going to repost your comment as a post...Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162417445837132682006-11-01T16:44:00.000-05:002006-11-01T16:44:00.000-05:00OK, so maybe I was being a bit snarky in my commen...OK, so maybe I was being a bit snarky in my comment. But so much about the shidduch system turns me off--it's very similar to "The Best" system that I wrote about last year. Everyone wants the best. Why should my daughter settle for third or second best when she can have The Best?! Why should I even consider spots 2 and 3 on the list. Only #1 is of interest.<BR/><BR/>The problem is, no one is "The Best". No one is perfect. We all have one flaw or another. And to reduce a person to a bunch of checkmarks is something that I find offensive. <BR/><BR/>When you meet someone, and decide whether it is someone you like, you don't base it on one or two things. You take the good, you counter balance with the bad, and decide how you feel. Yes, there may be a few deal breakers. But when you hear about what people in the shidduch system consider to be "deal breakers," you really have to wonder about where their priorities really are.<BR/><BR/>Take a look at your spouse (if you have one). I'm sure he/she has many wonderful qualities. Ignore them for the moment. List 3 bad qualities about them. Family history, their education, bad habits, physical imperfections. Write them down on a piece of paper. Now imagine someone had shown you this before you met him or her. Would you still consider meeting your future spouse? Or would you move on to the next one down the list. Be honest.<BR/><BR/>Now do the same for yourself.PsychoToddlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874353280798371891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162393181547603812006-11-01T09:59:00.000-05:002006-11-01T09:59:00.000-05:00going back to the original question concerning ed ...going back to the original question concerning ed and depresson, i think that some commenters who write about a situation where an issue has been "resolved" really don't appreciate the biological and chemical basis of many mental illnesses. i have not studied ED, but i just took my clinical therapeutics exam on depression. to repeat what i wrote about, you CAN NOT cure a clinically-depressed individual. at best you can treat him and help him cope with it. indeed, 50% of individuals who experience an episode of major depression disorder will experience a second episode. after three episodes the likelihood of another one climbs to 90%. (and for this reason i am not sure what the year in israel making people more mature has to do with anything.)<BR/><BR/>in any case i am surprised that no one has mentioned that the shidduch question is just one facet of a much ethical delima that will become a bigger question in the coming years: how many informatoin about a person needs to be disclosed in various situations in an age when we can use genetics to predict a person's predispostions. so for example, is there a difference between notifying a shidduch that you have a 50% chance of having a depressive episode or notifying a life insurance provider that you have a 50% chance of an early heart attack.<BR/><BR/>finally, in shidduchim we do "discriminate" (and i don't mean that in a negative way) against certain individuals if they are a carrier of one of the jewish diseases. people don't generally see anything wrong with this and there are even organizations that ensure that 2 carriers do not get married.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162340695852765052006-10-31T19:24:00.000-05:002006-10-31T19:24:00.000-05:00Very intresting conversation and I have a lot to a...Very intresting conversation and I have a lot to add but I just wanted to note one thing that cracked me up. I feel like PN second question was a nightmare from one of my english classes. "To answer this question you must write an essay that will be at least 200 words. Spelling and grammer counts. You have an hour and a half. Good Luck."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162314752409572362006-10-31T12:12:00.000-05:002006-10-31T12:12:00.000-05:00Anon-y-mouse - Well put. (Scary story...)Chana - U...Anon-y-mouse - Well put. (Scary story...)<BR/><BR/>Chana - Ugh.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162312634292541822006-10-31T11:37:00.000-05:002006-10-31T11:37:00.000-05:00Mother of girl asks mother of boy, "is your husban...Mother of girl asks mother of boy, "is your husband being treated for erectile dysfunction? Because if he is, we won't consider your son."<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but this whole conversation is getting to me...have popcorn will lurkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03200484265589054583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162303144866423852006-10-31T08:59:00.000-05:002006-10-31T08:59:00.000-05:00(Same A-nony-mouse as above.)I think that both the...(Same A-nony-mouse as above.)<BR/><BR/>I think that both the person with a problem and the other person involved need to be honest and realistic both with others and with themselves. The person with a problem has to assess honestly whether s/he is really a candidate or marriage, or whether, while a candidate for marriage, s/he should have children. (Over the years, I've had two friends with Multiple Schlerosis. Both married, but one adopted a child and the other chose to remain childless.) On the other side of the equation, the "well" person should assess whether the situation is *really* one that s/he can handle, or whether s/he is actiing out of sheer desperation. <BR/><BR/>All of my girlfiend's friends warned her that there was something not quite right about her ex, but she not only married him, but stupidly stayed with him despite years of emotional abuse and the blatantly obvious fact that her ex was sufficiently lacking in common sense that he routinely endangered the welfare of their children. (How many people do you know who would let a pre-schooler walk six blocks to the pizza parlor by herself, or let an 8-year-old find her own way to and from the ladies room in a public park?) The reward for her desparate insistence on getting and staying married at any cost was not only that she suffered through over a decade of emotional abuse, but that her children also suffered physical abuse. She finally threw her ex out the day he locked one of their then-teenaged kids out of the apartment--after dragging the child out by the hair.<BR/><BR/>Marriage and parenthood are serious commitments. One must not allow own's judgment to be clouded by desperation, as the price for an error in judgment on such a serious matter may be far too high.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162275053063972172006-10-31T01:10:00.000-05:002006-10-31T01:10:00.000-05:00A-non-y-mouse - I don't think it's that cruel. It'...A-non-y-mouse - I don't think it's that cruel. It's a simple statement of fact - there are the rare occasions where the person simply shouldn't be married.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162274447269601942006-10-31T01:00:00.000-05:002006-10-31T01:00:00.000-05:00(Same A-nony-mouse as above.)This may seem a cruel...(Same A-nony-mouse as above.)<BR/><BR/>This may seem a cruel thing to say, but having seen the h#ll that my girlfriend went while she was married and her continuing nightmare of having an adult child who will probably never be well enough to live a normal life, I truly believe that there are some people who are simply not healthy enough for marriage. My girlfriend's tragedy, as well as her child's, could have been avoided if her ex had simply chosen to stay single for life. There are some things that you simply don't do to someone whom you purport to love.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162273618327036522006-10-31T00:46:00.000-05:002006-10-31T00:46:00.000-05:00At some point, a person should tell the truth.One ...At some point, a person should tell the truth.<BR/><BR/>One of my best friends would never have married her ex if she'd known in advance that he was the second generation to inherit a genetic mental illness. Instead, she ended up emotionally abused and with a mentally-ill child. I can only pray that their other child chooses to adopt. Three generations of incurable and not-too-treatable genetic mental illness in one family are quite enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162272358766909542006-10-31T00:25:00.000-05:002006-10-31T00:25:00.000-05:00a) I didn't know what the Q was before, exactly (b...a) I didn't know what the Q was before, exactly (but I was close!). But now... yes! And my answer still applies: People need to be educated about these issues, and in a way, not volunteering them early on in a relationship helps to do just that. (Though that shouldn't be the motivation!) People shouldn't feel pressured to volunteer that they had therapy, which is by definition private, early on in a relationship. When they feel comfortable doing so, great. Perhaps the prospective mother-in-law will realize that a person having gone to therapy is now this amazing, stable, mature person in front of them and understand that therapy is a good thing.<BR/><BR/>b) Of course. That would apply even in the non-shidduch world. I was just giving an example.<BR/><BR/>(Side note: Every system, shidduch or not, if "done correctly" works. That's not really an argument...)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162271243078259082006-10-31T00:07:00.000-05:002006-10-31T00:07:00.000-05:00ezzie- two points.a)the stigma to which i was refe...ezzie- two points.<BR/><BR/>a)the stigma to which i was referring is only explainable (new word) through an example. Shadchan/mother of boy/boy himself finds out that girl was in therapy during HS (or alternatively, post-sem). Shadchan/mother/boy automatically think "this girl must be out of control, weak, unloved or abused, forever branded as emotionally unstable." Now does my question hold more water?<BR/><BR/>b) those circles which wouldnt approve of a guy or girl getting the others number to find out information have reasons for this. no system is perfect, but the shidduch system, if carried out correctly, works.pobody's nerfect.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671975938001698084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162266795861469092006-10-30T22:53:00.000-05:002006-10-30T22:53:00.000-05:00Anon - I don't think you quite understood the exam...Anon - I don't think you quite understood the examples I was referring to. I'm talking about the people who are having other people make all the calls for them, finding out info, "looking into" people, etc.<BR/><BR/>I *could* go off on how people should be able to do just that, but I actually do understand the point perfectly. You could simply try to find out more about the person and express interest through a third party in those circles; or, (gasp) you could try and get her number and give her a call. (That won't fly in those circles, most of the time, though. :::sigh::: )Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162264666807056602006-10-30T22:17:00.000-05:002006-10-30T22:17:00.000-05:00Ezzie, as a single myself, its not easy to be in c...Ezzie, as a single myself, its not easy to be in control of dating. I wish I could just do something that would make all the right things happen but its not possible. In circles where guys and girls don't mix much (though they aren't completely separated) what is one supposed to do, go up to someone who looks about right and say, will you date me? Its just not so simple though I wish this wasn't the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162255953606510062006-10-30T19:52:00.000-05:002006-10-30T19:52:00.000-05:00I actually don't think you got it, exactly.It's NO...I actually don't think you got it, exactly.<BR/><BR/>It's NOT okay to hide it. It's just not the shadchan's business to be asking (okay, so maybe people didn't say that) and there's no reason to be volunteering it. The shadchan shouldn't be the one sharing it - the person should.<BR/><BR/>And it shouldn't necessarily wait until it becomes serious - at that point, people who may not be prepared to handle certain issues will tell themselves they could because they're already at a certain level in the relationship. It should be *at the proper time*, whenever that may be.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure exactly what your question is with the stigmas, especially as your examples vary quite a bit. Should people be educated more about them? Certainly. Are we feeding into them by not discussing them until a certain point? I don't think so - those things are private, stigma or not. No?Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162253045454752222006-10-30T19:04:00.000-05:002006-10-30T19:04:00.000-05:00okay, so here's my view of the collective conclusi...okay, so here's my view of the collective conclusion of the serandez readers, who have all posted lengthy comments because we all suffer from the "i'm having trouble defining in less words what i'm really trying to say" syndrome.<BR/>Here goes:<BR/><BR/>It's okay to hide the truth from a Shadchan; only when dating becomes serious is it necessary to let the boy/girl know of any past (or present) big issues. this is because a good marriage is dependent on honesty and trust. <BR/><BR/>Did i get it?<BR/>If yes, i have a new question; perhaps it even deserves a new blog post, but for now i'll ask it here:<BR/><BR/>Even though the SerandEz readers are pretty much all in agreement that emotional struggles are not something to hide from a potential spouse, the stigmas of eating disorders, depression, homosexuality, therapy, etc. all still exist. Is it right to feed into these stigmas? If yes, why, and if not, how do we change those stigmas, both in our own minds and in the general world?pobody's nerfect.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671975938001698084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162246083383915902006-10-30T17:08:00.000-05:002006-10-30T17:08:00.000-05:00Anon1&2 - That's one of those "each person must ga...Anon1&2 - That's one of those "each person must gauge their own situation" issues. If the person wasn't religious, that's perhaps much less surprising than if the person was and it's not as big of a deal. But that's an "each case is different" one.<BR/><BR/>Chana - Oooh, well put. The focus should definitely be more on the future than the past, and people forget that all too often.<BR/><BR/>PT - I wouldn't say don't ask don't tell, necessarily. For people who would strike you off for stupidity, the honest answer is simply: Well, wouldn't want to marry them if that is what they think/what is important to them.<BR/><BR/>Kasamba - Medical issues that have been cured are always tricky, though I generally don't see why they'd be an issue if there's no reason to expect a return.<BR/><BR/>Sheva - Oooh, one of my favorite subjects!!! I've always questioned why these issues have to be dealt with before - or better, in between - dates by people, especially people who AREN'T THE ONES DATING! Argh. Let them discuss it themselves. It usually will go much smoother, clearer, and it's a nice lesson for marriage - discussion is needed to work through problems. (What a novel concept!)<BR/><BR/>Anon (3?) - Amen.<BR/><BR/>SL - Also true. Too many couples are rushing because of pressures from outside people.<BR/><BR/>And also true, more singles should be the ones taking care of their dating. I'm not sure why parents should be involved past "someone mentioned this person to me, if you're interested, give them a call". And too many singles we know were pressured into dating before they were comfortable to do so, or before they were ready to do so. Agh - I could go on those for a while...Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162236016055358742006-10-30T14:20:00.000-05:002006-10-30T14:20:00.000-05:00I think that if dating couples were given the time...I think that if dating couples were given the time and space to develop trust and comfort with each other, we probably wouldn't have to have these shidduch conversations that are so prevelant.<BR/><BR/>Every skeleton is a different creature, so to speak, and I'm not sure that we can apply hard and fast rules accross the board for what information needs to be revealed when, since we are dealing with people and not meat (although shidduchim can look a lot more like a meat department at time). <BR/><BR/>There is so much that could be said on such a topic and so much that has been said on a topic. <BR/><BR/>My personal feeling is that shadchanim (be they friends, community members, or pros) need not know everything before setting up a date. In fact, sometimes I believe that having to put on a game face for a shadchan can produce more disinformation than relevant information. <BR/><BR/>I prefer to see singles be pro-active participants in their own quest to get married, rather than having to get to the single through official channels, often parents or singles. Unfortunately, not every single out there that is "on the market" really wants to be on the market or should be on the market. <BR/><BR/>Great conversation, maybe I will add more as it develops.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1162234989111544702006-10-30T14:03:00.000-05:002006-10-30T14:03:00.000-05:00A quick note to Anon - I understand they're differ...A quick note to Anon - I understand they're different. In the case I cited, the person's homosexual tendencies turned to pedophilia, but that could be for a number of reasons: Perhaps he felt this was his "only option" because of how homosexuality is viewed in the world he lived in. But in general, they are two very distinct things.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.com