tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post114837254925304632..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Canonist Off The MarkEzziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148969734961202452006-05-30T02:15:00.000-04:002006-05-30T02:15:00.000-04:00I - and many others - no longer believe/trust our ...<I>I - and many others - no longer believe/trust our leader's assurances that "we will handle this with decorous caution" - which is essentially what Gil and you are calling on us to rely upon.</I><BR/><BR/>That is NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is that accepting claims unskeptically causes serious problems and destroys lives, much as abuse does.<BR/><BR/><I>Let claim and counterclaim be argued in the adversarial court system - in which damages can be awarded for spurious claims.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely. But don't accept the claims as truth before that happens.<BR/><BR/><I>I and many others no longer trust our leaders to do so.</I><BR/><BR/>Count me in. But that does not mean that being equally filthy will solve the problems - I think it only excaberates the current issues.<BR/><BR/><I>Understood, they could be %100 true and it is certainly much more than understandable that they want to remain anonymous. But they cannot then enjoy a presumption of truth.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148942140646764172006-05-29T18:35:00.000-04:002006-05-29T18:35:00.000-04:00westbankmama,Fear of public humiliation is an issu...westbankmama,<BR/>Fear of public humiliation is an issue when the charges are made publically by a know claimant. Mosts of the claims flying around on the blogs are anonymous. Understood, they could be %100 true and it is certainly much more than understandable that they want to remain anonymous. But they cannot then enjoy a presumption of truth.מיכאלhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067645125371849127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148812435338688242006-05-28T06:33:00.000-04:002006-05-28T06:33:00.000-04:00Ezzie - I came away from my original reading of th...Ezzie - I came away from my original reading of the 2 posts - as I do from your comments - saying that this all works much better in theory than in practice.<BR/><BR/>We have seen a string of incidents - not all of them related to sexual abuse - in which the closed political ranks and clan mentality of the Orthodox world have resulted in terrible slanders and injustices - the Slifkin incident being the most prominent of the non-sexual examples.<BR/><BR/>I - and many others - no longer believe/trust our leader's assurances that "we will handle this with decorous caution" - which is essentially what Gil and you are calling on us to rely upon.<BR/><BR/>In these abuse cases, "due caution" basically amounted to passing the buck - and allowing more innocents to be wounded at other institutions.<BR/><BR/>Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Let claim and counterclaim be argued in the adversarial court system - in which damages can be awarded for spurious claims.<BR/><BR/>Is this the lowest common denominator? Yes.<BR/><BR/>Would we religious Jews like to think that we are "better" than this? Yes. <BR/><BR/>But as much as it affronts our pride, we have to admit that our leaders and communities don't seem to be on any higher level of ethical integrity. <BR/><BR/>And the first step up is to shine a light on the filthy corners, dry them up, clean them up.<BR/><BR/>I and many others no longer trust our leaders to do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148414717609237052006-05-23T16:05:00.000-04:002006-05-23T16:05:00.000-04:00Efrayim - well put.SL - Thank you!Efrayim - well put.<BR/><BR/>SL - Thank you!Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148412354257554152006-05-23T15:25:00.000-04:002006-05-23T15:25:00.000-04:00I liked Gil's approach of looking at where we are ...I liked Gil's approach of looking at where we are not safeguarding our students and teachers (it reminds me of my approach :), but felt that some of the underlying premises and assumptions were flawed, so I was glad to see Steven put his name out there to say that self-policing doesn't work. <BR/><BR/>Your follow up critique combined with the other two left a lot to think about and brought home the most important points.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148402455053483842006-05-23T12:40:00.000-04:002006-05-23T12:40:00.000-04:00SoccerDad - Exactly. I think precautions always ne...SoccerDad - Exactly. I think precautions always need to be taken immediately; I know personally someone who turned out to be a child molester. (See my post below.) But the door can't be left wide open for false accusations.<BR/><BR/>WBM - Unfortunately, there is much to be gained. Sometimes it's to strike at whomever is being accused, even for something legitimate. Sometimes it's money. Sometimes the person simply is not stable.<BR/><BR/>I agree and disagree with the 'worst case scenario' approach. As I wrote to SD, all precautions must be taken - but the presumption of guilt should not be made. Let the case be investigated before we assume that the accused is guilty of a heinous crime. Many people know others who've been falsely accused; even when fully exonerated, their lives are somewhat destroyed. It's not just a loss of parnassah at all. The more we can limit that, the better. False accusations simply shouldn't be stood for.<BR/><BR/><I>But if our knee-jerk reaction is to deny the accusations out of hand, or put extreme pressure on the accuser to just be quiet, then we don't have the opportunity to hear others who may have similar stories to impart.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that's the mistake many are making. There is a choice between acceptance and denial. Not accepting the claims outright is not denial, and is not putting pressure on the accuser to be quiet. It's saying: "Wow. That's terrible. Let's investigate and prove this is true before we just accept it at face value."<BR/><BR/>Gil - Very strongly agree. The burden of proof for allegations and for a news story are far lower than what it takes to actually prove something. Investigative journalism provides a wonderful, important service, bringing stories such as this under public scrutiny - but it is then up to the public (courts, police, etc.) to determine if they are actually true.<BR/><BR/>Anon - Newbie? You should visit more often. :)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148395652281167882006-05-23T10:47:00.000-04:002006-05-23T10:47:00.000-04:00Thought I would never see it! A newbie blogger eng...Thought I would never see it! A newbie blogger engaging in an intellectual debate with the J-blogsphere's original most sophosticated intellectuals?.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148391863516378612006-05-23T09:44:00.000-04:002006-05-23T09:44:00.000-04:00Ezzie,Thank you for the defense. I would add that ...Ezzie,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the defense. I would add that I do not share Steven's faith in investigative journalism. Just because a journalist thinks it's true, and can get it by his editors and lawyers (perhaps with very careful phrasing), does not mean that it is true.Gil Studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12776831546758682126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148390485790708732006-05-23T09:21:00.000-04:002006-05-23T09:21:00.000-04:00Ezzie - In relation to your reasonable questioning...Ezzie - In relation to your reasonable questioning about when to believe accusations of abuse, I think you have to ask yourself, "what possible gain does this person get from the accusation?" and "what possible loss does he risk?" In most cases, the risks of public humiliation are far greater than any gain. So why does the person make the accusation? Because it is true, and the victim needs to seek justice, not only for his own healing but to protect others from a predator. Another thing to think of is the "worst case scenario". If a paedofile is accused, and the community initially believes the accusers and he is jailed, then scores of children are protected, both physically and psychologically. If someone is falsely accused, then perhaps one person loses his parnassa (which he will gain again if he is cleared). Another point leading me to a "knee-jerk" belief in those making these allegations, is that when one person has the courage to come out and accuse someone of sexual abuse, it usually brings out many more who corraborate the information because they too were abused by the same person. It is extremely rare that an abuser has only one victim. But if our knee-jerk reaction is to deny the accusations out of hand, or put extreme pressure on the accuser to just be quiet, then we don't have the opportunity to hear others who may have similar stories to impart.westbankmamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07175250198028829889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148377046929024692006-05-23T05:37:00.000-04:002006-05-23T05:37:00.000-04:00But the possibility of false charges brings up ano...But the possibility of false charges brings up another problem: at what point do you believe the charges are true.Soccer Dadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16142724823098073038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1148376980183768682006-05-23T05:36:00.000-04:002006-05-23T05:36:00.000-04:00Other than the obvious misquote of Rabbi Scheinber...Other than the obvious misquote of Rabbi Scheinberg, the other thing that bothered me was the question of false allegation. If many of those commenting on the topic of abuse had their way, there'd be no protections and the charge of abuse could be much too easy to make.<BR/>I know of a case where a false charge was made - a wife against a husband -and the person who was accused took years of legal proceedings to be cleared. Even after he was cleared he couldn't be alone with his children for some time either.Soccer Dadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16142724823098073038noreply@blogger.com