tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post8833157436338138256..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Does "Lakewood" Produce?...Ezziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-43074129807933460602008-08-08T17:13:00.000-04:002008-08-08T17:13:00.000-04:00I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a str...<I>I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a straight face) for financial support from working people while at the same time making those people feel they are only second best.</I><BR/><BR/>You should see the people who show up at my door.PsychoToddlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874353280798371891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-53235293645139954682008-08-07T12:27:00.000-04:002008-08-07T12:27:00.000-04:00Motty - To whom are you referring, and about what?...Motty - To whom are you referring, and about what?Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-86999192006122055922008-08-07T12:26:00.000-04:002008-08-07T12:26:00.000-04:00stop fighting a losing battlestop fighting a losing battleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-2764202369478180402008-08-07T08:32:00.000-04:002008-08-07T08:32:00.000-04:00>BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Wh...>BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where are all the gedolim that are BMG graduates?<BR/><BR/>>>Would you really be happy with more gedolim to listen to?<BR/>------------------<BR/><BR/>Avoiding the question...unless admitting to the main point of said question and simply trying to change the subject.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-71631276549718453912008-08-07T08:30:00.000-04:002008-08-07T08:30:00.000-04:00Would you really be happy with more gedolim to lis...<I>Would you really be happy with more gedolim to listen to?</I><BR/><BR/>With all due respect this says alot about what you consider the role of a Gadol.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-56477301791401334522008-08-07T04:02:00.000-04:002008-08-07T04:02:00.000-04:00BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where ...BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where are all the gedolim that are BMG graduates?<BR/><BR/>Would you really be happy with more gedolim to listen to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-17418217605534680562008-08-06T23:27:00.000-04:002008-08-06T23:27:00.000-04:00Any discussion of sources would distract from the ...Any discussion of sources would distract from the matter at hand.<BR/><BR/>This is not about a 3,000 year old machlokes about working vs. learning, real or contrived.<BR/><BR/>Any sources people could marshal in support of kollel would be timeless, so it wouldn't explain why a recent histoirical anomaly should be perpetutated; that wold require some sort of svara as to why nowadays requires a different metzius, as it were.Eliezer StrongBadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15585492410479955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-43826073923208337012008-08-06T22:53:00.000-04:002008-08-06T22:53:00.000-04:00Anon - From the post:I do not agree completely wit...Anon - From the post:<BR/><BR/><I>I do not agree completely with the entire train of thought, I do not believe Torah learning is 100% valued by the "ends".</I><BR/><BR/>From the comments:<BR/><BR/><I>I've long asked the same question, albeit noting your caveat as well.</I><BR/><BR/><I>while we obviously value Torah learning in and of itself</I><BR/><BR/><I>I've tended to regard the Kollel as a fireplace in the heart of a home. You need to keep the fire going.</I><BR/><BR/>Etc.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-83500625354842088982008-08-06T19:53:00.000-04:002008-08-06T19:53:00.000-04:00no ezzie, the post and some comments questioned th...no ezzie, the post and some comments questioned the value of learning without "giving back" that quotes is directed at such people who don't realize that they are gaining immensely from people just sitting and learningAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-36403672121146562072008-08-06T17:58:00.000-04:002008-08-06T17:58:00.000-04:00וכן בכלל האפיקורס - האומר: מה הועילו לנו הלומדים ב...<I>וכן בכלל האפיקורס - האומר: מה הועילו לנו הלומדים בלמודם</I><BR/><BR/>...note again both the post and the comments following. Read it carefully.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-57867698893213921442008-08-06T17:57:00.000-04:002008-08-06T17:57:00.000-04:00ProfK - I don't think those are the two sides at a...ProfK - I don't think those are the two sides at all. I presume that most people wouldn't begrudge those who are happy to support someone and have worked out a deal (of their own choosing, not because they felt they were supposed to/had to) with someone who is truly dedicated to learning full-time. That is their individual prerogative.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-90776658279946287432008-08-06T17:54:00.000-04:002008-08-06T17:54:00.000-04:00perplexed,Speaking for myself...this discussion is...<I>perplexed,<BR/><BR/>Speaking for myself...this discussion is not about the lifestyle in the abstract or as lived by, as you say, scholars and rabbis. The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal norm.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. I think most people here seem to have noted this in some form or other - there certainly is value to having select individuals pursue lives of learning and teaching Torah. The question is on the widespread practice of it.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-84253789346985048632008-08-06T17:12:00.000-04:002008-08-06T17:12:00.000-04:00. וכן בכלל האפיקורס - האומר: מה הועילו לנו הלומדים.... וכן בכלל האפיקורס - האומר: מה הועילו לנו הלומדים בלמודםAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-6427572705931576522008-08-06T17:10:00.000-04:002008-08-06T17:10:00.000-04:00Since neither side seems to be happy with the barg...<I>Since neither side seems to be happy with the bargain made</I><BR/><BR/>Totally off topic but why do you think this to be the case?Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-3558238159750508592008-08-06T17:00:00.000-04:002008-08-06T17:00:00.000-04:00To be fair, there are two sides to the learning in...To be fair, there are two sides to the learning in kollel while being supported by the community issue. Side one: you want to learn full time and I am willing to contribute money so that you can do so. No one forces me to do so (at least not at gunpoint). Because I contribute the money I have a chalek in your learning, am "credited" for that chalek. That is my return on my investment. If I am not happy with the return on my investment, if I want more or different, then I needed to set up the terms differently from the beginning. I needed to say that in addition to learning in kollel I expect you to contribute visibly to the community at large in X,Y and Z manner. If you don't agree then I don't pay. <BR/><BR/>Side two: if I am learning in kollel, and being subsidized by you to do so, then I owe you to be the best learner possible, to take full advantage of the opportunity that you are providing to me. And surely I owe hakoras ha'tov for what you have enabled me to do. I surely should not be making comments that denigrate those who work and don't learn full time--biting the hand that feeds me with a vengeance.<BR/><BR/>Since neither side seems to be happy with the bargain made then the terms of the "contract" need to be renegotiated. What is reasonable to expect on both sides?ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-32431832210288293142008-08-06T15:48:00.000-04:002008-08-06T15:48:00.000-04:00I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a str...<I>I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a straight face) for financial support from working people while at the same time making those people feel they are only second best.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly! It has to be a TEAM. And all members of the team are valuable!Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-7955055161641607362008-08-06T15:36:00.000-04:002008-08-06T15:36:00.000-04:00The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal nor...<I>The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal norm.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know how a rosh kollel can ask (with a straight face) for financial support from working people while at the same time making those people feel they are only second best.<BR/><BR/>I am a big fan of the CC and NIRC "out of town" kollels where the kollel guys give back to the community and really make a difference. Those who are not as learned really gain from having the kollel in their community and are happy to support it, because they, as individuals and as a community, get benefit from it.SaraKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08053908720926177402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-76451286559664303402008-08-06T15:23:00.000-04:002008-08-06T15:23:00.000-04:00Part of that debate often cites that a reason for ...<I>Part of that debate often cites that a reason for massive dedicated Torah learning is because otherwise we would not be able to create "gedolim"</I><BR/><BR/>BMG has been around for more than 60 years. Where are all the gedolim that are BMG graduates?Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315731673185619309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-39923103827175581662008-08-06T14:27:00.001-04:002008-08-06T14:27:00.001-04:00perplexed, Speaking for myself...this discussion i...perplexed, <BR/><BR/>Speaking for myself...this discussion is not about the lifestyle in the abstract or as lived by, as you say, scholars and rabbis. The discussion is of the lifestyle as communal norm.<BR/><BR/>As for sources, off the top of my head one could start with Berachot daf, lamed hay:amud aleph (35a)Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-36062772291673475392008-08-06T14:27:00.000-04:002008-08-06T14:27:00.000-04:00And er, uh, the ultimate goal being...greater unde...And er, uh, the ultimate goal being...greater understanding of how to live a Torah lifestyle. What our goal has always been. To live by the Torah. And those who learn should share what they learn with others.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-7871836241166912112008-08-06T14:16:00.000-04:002008-08-06T14:16:00.000-04:00Wow, I think that was all rather confusing. I thin...Wow, I think that was all rather confusing. I think what I'm trying to say is, I think it should be a team effort. And I think that the right people should be doing the right jobs - either learning or learning and working or whatever. It's unproductive if you have the wrong people doing the wrong things.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-60925296952476315142008-08-06T14:13:00.000-04:002008-08-06T14:13:00.000-04:00what I cannot understand is why in a discussion re...what I cannot understand is why in a discussion regarding whether a lifestyle which many scholars, rabbis live as no one will deny that,<BR/> are people throwing out opinions of what is right or what is wort more,without sources?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-58626923547798245272008-08-06T13:56:00.000-04:002008-08-06T13:56:00.000-04:00I've thought about this a lot. I understand, of co...I've thought about this a lot. I understand, of course, that it is crucial for members of the Jewish nation to immerse themselves in Torah - but like Ezzie said, is it at the expense of other important things? <BR/><BR/>First of all, so many yeshivas go around asking tzeddaka from the Jews who actually work for a living, and while there's nothing wrong with one Jew supporting another, it seems almost selfish for the community that other Jews are helping to support not to produce anything or even have anything to show for their efforts. It also is a bit uncomfortable the way working Jews are viewed by those sitting in kollel all day. This goes back to the "you are sub-part" issue. Working Jews are being counted on to help support yeshivas, and then they're also looked at as being sub-par. Where is the balance here?<BR/><BR/>The other thing is that learning full time is not for everyone and, it's kind of a separate issue again, but in very enclosed communities where the pressure is put on people to learn instead of go to college, those who just don't have it in them to sit and learn all day end up kind of lost in the shuffle. I think the focus of some communities needs to be shifted from "Jews who learn all day are better Jews" to "it's important to have Jews who learn full-time, but only those who can actually handle it/those for whom this lifestyle will be most productive and rewarding, and for those who it won't be, it's important for them to develop their skills in other areas so they can support their families and the Jewish community. And both kinds of Jews are vital and necessary."<BR/><BR/>I don't really know. That's just my own kinda inexperienced opinion.Erachethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660802321998349072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-37624586848134111352008-08-06T13:50:00.000-04:002008-08-06T13:50:00.000-04:00and what would that line of reasoning be may i ask...<I>and what would that line of reasoning be may i ask?</I><BR/><BR/>What is the "goal" of the Kollel system?Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-21857009800346649292008-08-06T13:15:00.000-04:002008-08-06T13:15:00.000-04:00SaraK - That sounds a lot like RIETS, Chofetz Chai...SaraK - That sounds a lot like RIETS, Chofetz Chaim, parts of NIRC, and other places.<BR/><BR/><I>I believe that LIVING according to the ideals of the Torah is more important. </I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. I think that goes back to what Shoshana was saying - if the Kollel world were able to better demonstrate that their lifestyle better allows them to live a Torah lifestyle (Bein Adam L'Chaveiro and Bein Adam L'Makom), then it would have strength. However, if it does not, then it loses that argument.<BR/><BR/>Note that presumably, people in Kollel feel that in fact it does do this.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.com