tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post5374410227835503042..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Missing the PointEzziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-65341470084749928792007-07-25T12:21:00.000-04:002007-07-25T12:21:00.000-04:00B"H I liked your analysis, as I did Gil's. I tho...B"H I liked your analysis, as I did Gil's. I thought that Avraham Burg's recent take on how Jews should approach the non-Jewish world frightening (as opposed to comical). And now this? I don't believe in coincidences. Something's up, and it smells like Erev Rav.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-37394811904931831462007-07-24T14:45:00.000-04:002007-07-24T14:45:00.000-04:00I think we're basically agreeing, anon.I think we're basically agreeing, anon.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-48366928447133300212007-07-24T14:37:00.000-04:002007-07-24T14:37:00.000-04:00Ezzie- "Moreover, there aren't many prominent Ami...Ezzie- "Moreover, there aren't many prominent Amish people writing pieces like" thats my point- there are not articles like this because you leave the Amish faith you need to realize whats going to happen- no one who left will go write an article how they were left out of the class picture- that was an expected thing to happen and they knew it when they left. "Part of the 'big deal' here is that Feldman has these outstanding academic credentials"- more so- I highly doubt that any of his credentials or academic achievements were really molded from his 12 years of grade school. Perhaps some of the molding took place throughout high school, doubtfully any during elementary school and the blossoming was most probably in college, research and graduate school. Besides the reunion photo was not taken to highlight who strived and succeeded academically from the school so his accomplishments and academic stellar play no light in this matter except highlighting his profound lack of comprehension that someone with such brights and such afor-mentioned academic achievements should realize that bringing a non-Jewish girl to the orthodox class reunion was egotistical inconsiderate and not to mention uncomfortable,expecting her to be in the picture is just plain bad A**, and a real question of his genius.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-70976970843280751142007-07-24T12:52:00.000-04:002007-07-24T12:52:00.000-04:00Specifically, no matter how great your other accom...Specifically, no matter how great your other accomplishments, no matter how warm our personal feelings may be to you, marry out and any subsequent public institutional association with you shames us.<BR/><BR/>Many Jewish communities give undue honor to those who are wealthy. In a community where academic accomplishment is sometimes treated similarly, this is a huge statement. <BR/>---------<BR/><BR/>Correct, and everyone knows this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-27802785612064015072007-07-24T12:24:00.000-04:002007-07-24T12:24:00.000-04:00Any dishonesty as to the record of who was at the ...Any dishonesty as to the record of who was at the reunion, pales beside the raw, honest, educational message about the school's position. <BR/><BR/>Specifically, no matter how great your other accomplishments, no matter how warm our personal feelings may be to you, marry out and any subsequent public institutional association with you shames us.<BR/><BR/>Many Jewish communities give undue honor to those who are wealthy. In a community where academic accomplishment is sometimes treated similarly, this is a huge statement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-52041356963756479792007-07-24T11:20:00.000-04:002007-07-24T11:20:00.000-04:00would they cut out his photo if his wife were Jewi...<I>would they cut out his photo if his wife were Jewish but didn't cover her hair? Why or why not? Would they cut out his photo if he weren't wearing a kippah? If he was chewing treif gum at the event? If.... .etc etc etc.</I><BR/><BR/>I actually figured someone would ask that, but there's a huge difference between not being perfect and (knowingly) cutting off your future generations from the religion.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-70671000311520282462007-07-24T11:19:00.000-04:002007-07-24T11:19:00.000-04:00IYWI - :) Thanks!Anon - I don't know if that's a f...IYWI - :) Thanks!<BR/><BR/>Anon - I don't know if that's a fair comparison; there have been plenty of articles on Rumspringa all over the place. Moreover, there aren't many prominent Amish people writing pieces like this; part of the 'big deal' here is that Feldman has these outstanding academic credentials.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-81754584894858902192007-07-24T11:17:00.000-04:002007-07-24T11:17:00.000-04:00But as soon as the Jewish part goes, the person ge...<I>But as soon as the Jewish part goes, the person gets thrown under the bus. That's what I was referring to.</I><BR/><BR/>...in terms of their Jewish identity. Yes, that's the choice they've made.<BR/><BR/><I>So if my father gave me a choice of getting a beating or kicking a puppy, it's my fault if I don't kick the puppy? When the choice itself is immoral, you can't blame the person choosing "wrongly."</I><BR/><BR/>What's the immoral choice?!<BR/>a) Stay religious, stay part of the community.<BR/>b) Don't.<BR/><BR/>This is circular - you keep complaining that you can't choose to not be religious and still remain part of the (religious) community which you're turning from. That's ridiculous.<BR/><BR/>That would be like being a part of an atheist convention, a short while later proclaiming my absolute belief in God, and then wondering why they're not thrilled to see me back at the atheist convention. (Except in this case it's worse, because it's not just an idea - he's cutting off his family from Judaism for the future.)<BR/><BR/><I>I've never heard of an academic boycott as such.</I><BR/><BR/>Against Israel, all the time.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-25441875000422965072007-07-24T04:35:00.000-04:002007-07-24T04:35:00.000-04:00Ezzie, have a meaningful fast!Ezzie, have a meaningful fast!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-63566643160845773082007-07-23T21:47:00.000-04:002007-07-23T21:47:00.000-04:00would they cut out his photo if his wife were Jewi...would they cut out his photo if his wife were Jewish but didn't cover her hair? Why or why not? Would they cut out his photo if he weren't wearing a kippah? If he was chewing treif gum at the event? If.... .etc etc etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-3144601084871603922007-07-23T17:50:00.000-04:002007-07-23T17:50:00.000-04:00--Why? Just because he knew they would act a certa...--Why? Just because he knew they would act a certain way means he can't criticize them for doing it?<BR/><BR/>Just makes the whole piece seem less legit, to me.<BR/><BR/>Gotta go.<BR/><BR/>Easy fast everyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1779287212828568092007-07-23T17:45:00.000-04:002007-07-23T17:45:00.000-04:00I don't see an article in Times about the Amish. ...I don't see an article in Times about the Amish. I went to Amish town and was given a tour on a horse drawn wagon by a woman, who left her community and was shunned. At the age of 13 the Amish (Mennonite) teenagers are given a choice- they can stay in the community or go out and explore. If they go out and explore other options and come back, then great, they saw, they did and they returned. But if they are not like the prodigal child and decide they like what they have seen then they can stay out of the community, but they are shunned. Some or even ostracized- this tour guides mother went so far as to even have nothing to do with her child, but she will talk to her grandchild. This woman knew her options and the consequences that came with it. It was her choice and the Amish community gave her the option to make that choice- but they also said if she made that choice and show that way, she would be shunned,because that new lifestyle doesn't go hand in hand with their life- style and their value system and set of morals. Believe me i doubt highly that Ms. tour guide would have even been invited to the reunion- quick call the NY Times!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-19136818543517007472007-07-23T17:42:00.000-04:002007-07-23T17:42:00.000-04:00Have an easy fast.Have an easy fast.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-23781984367150767212007-07-23T17:40:00.001-04:002007-07-23T17:40:00.001-04:00Chana - I'm saying that it's okay *even* if his ve...Chana - I'm saying that it's okay *even* if his version is correct. If it's less, then certainly so.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-26661819822036440162007-07-23T17:40:00.000-04:002007-07-23T17:40:00.000-04:00As you know, I've personally chosen to date only J...<I>As you know, I've personally chosen to date only Jews so as to spare my parents the pain of their son marrying out.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that's why I only added the "in your case" to the next paragraph. When he did it, he clearly slapped whatever he'd come from in the face.<BR/><BR/><I>Still, if I did marry out, it wouldn't be a slap in their face unless I was doing it just to spite them. Otherwise, their hurt wouldn't be my responsibility.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think that's true. You might feel better that you're not doing it to hurt them, but that doesn't mean they are hurt; similarly, this isn't being done to Feldman to hurt him, but he is being hurt.<BR/><BR/><I>Would you argue that becoming a BT is slapping your parents and/or secular education in the face?</I><BR/><BR/>Of course it is. Which is why BTs should be especially careful to show their parents that their rejection has nothing to do with them, and that they still love them.<BR/><BR/><I>I'm not saying I didn't know the choice; I'm saying forcing people to choose is immoral.</I><BR/><BR/>It's the nature of the choice, so I disagree.<BR/><BR/><I>But it's not just a religion; it's a community, too.</I><BR/><BR/>A <B>religious</B> community.<BR/><BR/><I>If religious belief is so fragile that an alumnus who married out is a threat to your children's emunah, it's not much of a belief system.</I><BR/><BR/>No, but certainly not a great thing to advertise.<BR/><BR/>gotta run to eat before fast, to be continued...Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-69300511086413785042007-07-23T17:10:00.000-04:002007-07-23T17:10:00.000-04:00Can I interrupt to make what I see as a VERY IMPOR...Can I interrupt to make what I see as a VERY IMPORTANT POINT?<BR/><BR/>The only version of events we have is Noah Feldman's.<BR/><BR/><B>We have no idea what happened here in Maimonides. We have no idea why (or if!) they doctored this photo. We haven't heard their side of the story, their defense or their point of view.</B><BR/><BR/>Before you get into this whole discussion about the photoshopped/ cropped/ doctored photo, I think it would be best if someone who knows the principal of/ administrators at Maimonides heard what their official explanation for this is. I know I am curious to hear their side of the story and their point of view. We are all speculating as to reasons that this was done without knowing their version of the truth.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-42917415018412639142007-07-23T17:07:00.000-04:002007-07-23T17:07:00.000-04:00ezzie:That's your opinion. Rejecting your parents'...ezzie:<BR/><BR/><I>That's your opinion. Rejecting your parents' way of life so utterly is a slap in the face, too; and rejecting your Jewish education so completely is obviously one to your old schools, telling them they failed.</I><BR/><BR/>As you know, I've personally chosen to date only Jews so as to spare my parents the pain of their son marrying out. Still, if I did marry out, it wouldn't be a slap in their face unless I was doing it just to spite them. Otherwise, their hurt wouldn't be my responsibility.<BR/><BR/>Would you argue that becoming a BT is slapping your parents and/or secular education in the face?<BR/><BR/><I>The community is one of theological beliefs! As Gil said, you leave KNOWING that. That's the choice you make - these are the effects of those choices.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not saying I didn't know the choice; I'm saying forcing people to choose is immoral.<BR/><BR/><I>You can make whatever choices you want... within the religion. Otherwise, you're choosing outside of it.</I><BR/><BR/>But it's not just a religion; it's a community, too. If religious belief is so fragile that an alumnus who married out is a threat to your children's emunah, it's not much of a belief system.<BR/><BR/><I>What's "happy" about this?! I'm sure they'd have loved if he'd stayed religious. There is little more hurtful to a Jewish educational system than to see the Jewish part be thrown out the window.</I><BR/><BR/>But as soon as the Jewish part goes, the person gets thrown under the bus. That's what I was referring to.<BR/><BR/><I>They're not throwing anyone under the bus - this is someone making a conscious decision knowing the consequences. To make that choice and then be upset about those consequences is incredibly short-sighted and/or pathetic. Again - you live by the choices you make. You seem to have as much trouble accepting this as he does.</I><BR/><BR/>So if my father gave me a choice of getting a beating or kicking a puppy, it's my fault if I don't kick the puppy? When the choice itself is immoral, you can't blame the person choosing "wrongly."<BR/><BR/><I>Think about what an academic boycott is. Cutting off ties with that which you disagree with.</I><BR/><BR/>I've never heard of an academic boycott as such.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>g:<BR/><BR/><I>Perhaps. However (and I realize this is to a different point), it should prevent him from taking the stance he does (in the tone he does) in the piece.</I><BR/><BR/>Why? Just because he knew they would act a certain way means he can't criticize them for doing it?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>IT:<BR/><BR/><I>If they've committed something you consider heinous, you don't think parents have the right to associate with them?</I><BR/><BR/>I think it's important to differentiate between ben-adom-l'chaveiroh and ben-adom-l'makom. For the latter, why can't people let God worry about it if He cares so much?Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-21682151961786562592007-07-23T16:56:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:56:00.000-04:00Come now, that is being disingenuous. Had that bee...<I>Come now, that is being disingenuous. Had that been the case then the same discussion would be taking place, just with a different backround.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, on second thought, it'd be just as bad.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-15406946137040837462007-07-23T16:53:00.001-04:002007-07-23T16:53:00.001-04:00Jewish atheist: Don't want to sound monstrous here...Jewish atheist: Don't want to sound monstrous here, but why do you find that cutting ties with children for some reason is immoral? If they've committed something you consider heinous, you don't think parents have the right to associate with them? What if they committed a serious crime? I'm talking about adult children, who are no longer dependent on their parents in any legal way. Sure, it may seem horrible from emotional point of view... but I don't see it as something necessarily immoral. Just something that's not common in our society. But I don't see how it's different than showing disapproval to anyone else close to you who's done something you cannot forgive. I know that if my parents, G-d forbid, were doing things I considered extremely wrong, I probably would not want to be associating with them either, though I love them both dearly. But there are things you cannot do if they go against your morality, and sometimes, that means continuing to stay in touch with other people who do that.Irina Tsukermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964771563778702009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-43775091566491150892007-07-23T16:53:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:53:00.000-04:00-He forced their hand, in a way. Due to his own de...-He forced their hand, in a way. Due to his own denial and cognitive dissonance.<BR/><BR/>--Yes, he did. That doesn't mean what they did was right<BR/><BR/>Perhaps. However (and I realize this is to a different point), it should prevent him from taking the stance he does (in the tone he does) in the piece.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-74936778960149818912007-07-23T16:51:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:51:00.000-04:00It would have been more honest....and more hurtful...<I>It would have been more honest.</I><BR/><BR/>...and more hurtful. We'd be seeing an even stronger piece in the NYT mag.<BR/><BR/><I>Rejecting your children because they decide to marry a perfectly nice woman who happens to not be Jewish is indeed immoral.</I><BR/><BR/>That's your opinion. Rejecting your parents' way of life so utterly is a slap in the face, too; and rejecting your Jewish education so completely is obviously one to your old schools, telling them they failed.<BR/><BR/><I>Forcing someone to choose between remaining a part of the only community he's ever known and his theological beliefs is immoral.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, your (in this case) biased opinion. The community is one of theological beliefs! As Gil said, you leave KNOWING that. That's the choice you make - these are the effects of those choices.<BR/><BR/><I>What ever happened to letting people make their own life decisions? Whose business is it but his who he marries?</I><BR/><BR/>You can make whatever choices you want... within the religion. Otherwise, you're choosing outside of it.<BR/><BR/><I>Orthodoxy is way too happy to throw individuals under the bus so they can maintain the happy illusion that nothing's wrong for their children.</I><BR/><BR/>What's "happy" about this?! I'm sure they'd have loved if he'd stayed religious. There is little more hurtful to a Jewish educational system than to see the Jewish part be thrown out the window.<BR/><BR/>They're not throwing anyone under the bus - this is someone making a conscious decision knowing the consequences. To make that choice and then be upset about those consequences is incredibly short-sighted and/or pathetic. Again - you live by the choices you make. You seem to have as much trouble accepting this as he does.<BR/><BR/><I>Huh?</I><BR/><BR/>Think about what an academic boycott is. Cutting off ties with that which you disagree with.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-15732791823529936902007-07-23T16:50:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:50:00.000-04:00-Would you rather they ask him not to join the pic...-Would you rather they ask him not to join the picture?<BR/><BR/>--It would have been more honest.<BR/><BR/>Come now, that is being disingenuous. Had that been the case then the same discussion would be taking place, just with a different backround.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-64377702833188666352007-07-23T16:45:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:45:00.000-04:00That's the "lie"!? What would you have had them do...<I>That's the "lie"!? What would you have had them do?</I><BR/><BR/>Either use the photo as it was or not.<BR/><BR/><I>(I apologize if this feels like ganging up. I am truly interested in this thought process.)</I><BR/><BR/>No worries. Always happy to debate. :-)<BR/><BR/><I>He forced their hand, in a way. Due to his own denial and cognitive dissonance.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, he did. That doesn't mean what they did was right.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-80254332469851862532007-07-23T16:43:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:43:00.000-04:00Would you rather they ask him not to join the pict...<I>Would you rather they ask him not to join the picture?</I><BR/><BR/>It would have been more honest.<BR/><BR/><I>No, it's not wrong. The system is in and of itself a choice (if even): Be Jewish or not. He chose to not.</I><BR/><BR/>Orthodox Judaism isn't some sort of golf club -- it's the extended family that we were born into. Rejecting your children because they decide to marry a perfectly nice woman who happens to not be Jewish is indeed immoral. Forcing someone to choose between remaining a part of the only community he's ever known and his theological beliefs is immoral. What ever happened to letting people make their own life decisions? Whose business is it but his who he marries?<BR/><BR/>Orthodoxy is way too happy to throw individuals under the bus so they can maintain the happy illusion that nothing's wrong for their children. It's a disgrace and the antithesis of morality.<BR/><BR/><I>While obviously a more extreme example, you cut off association with that which crosses the line.</I><BR/><BR/>But not dishonestly. I'm not expecting my high school to link to my blog, but I'd be pretty offended if they chopped me out of a picture.<BR/><BR/><I>That he still attends alumni events is actually pretty impressive on the parts of both him and the school; many schools would cut all ties.</I><BR/><BR/>Disgraceful.<BR/><BR/><I>Is it any different than an academic boycott? I think not.</I><BR/><BR/>Huh?Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-82888594401252047822007-07-23T16:38:00.000-04:002007-07-23T16:38:00.000-04:00-->Where is the lie? It's not like they go around ...-->Where is the lie? It's not like they go around talking up his family life while convenientltly leaving out the fact that his wife is not jewish?<BR/><BR/>->The lie is the doctored photo. It's supposed to be of the alumni at the reunion, but they edited it to remove the one they don't approve of.<BR/><BR/>That's the "lie"!? What would you have had them do?<BR/><BR/>(I apologize if this feels like ganging up. I am truly interested in this thought process.)<BR/><BR/>He forced their hand, in a way. Due to his own denial and cognitive dissonance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com