tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post1756045380738983484..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: ImpostorsEzziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-58916611271179576322011-04-17T17:51:33.705-04:002011-04-17T17:51:33.705-04:00Sorry to wade into the tail-end of this discussion...Sorry to wade into the tail-end of this discussion, but I think that there is a category error in positing that each individual has 'a' view on this topic. I think this whole 'unified personality' thing is a bit of a myth. I know my beliefs are not coherent and may often change depending on my mood/who I'm talking to - it's not that I'm insane, it's just life is more complicated than that. When I'm hocking rebbe politics with the guy next to me at shalesheedes or going through the piskei teshuvos to be makayem every dikduk halocho I'm doing one thing; OTOH I can be in work with my gentile collegaues and basically affiliate with their materialist/humanistic outlook - it's not that one part of me is the true part and the other is in denial - rather that there is no ghost in the machine - I suspect this is the case for many of the semi-Orthoprax 'maaminim ve'einam maaminim' - there is no grand unifying theory - it just is what at is.<br />Another issue to focus on is that with all the skepticism that has been revealed/encouraged by the internet, there's exponential population growth amongst hard-core Charedim who may or may not believe but certainly act like they do, and generally know little different, so will socialize their children into the same mehalech. In Europe there was a tidal wave of secularization which was changing everything pre WWII - how long will it take before this occurs in Williamsburg/Kiryas Tosh? My personal theory is that it is a function of welfare economics...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-63809134282469392482011-04-15T11:05:17.006-04:002011-04-15T11:05:17.006-04:00Me? Or in general?
You, in general, whatever. I ...<i>Me? Or in general?</i><br /><br />You, in general, whatever. I just want to see all these intelligent, reasonable arguments that OJs keep saying are out there but can never manage to actually show.<br /><br /><i>I've never claimed to be a scholar. I have and have read plenty of questions, but nothing that I find more compelling than the flip side.</i><br /><br />Can you say honestly that the propositions "Moshe wrote the chumash as dictated by God" and "the chumash was not finished until the time of the Temple" are equally compelling claims? Or that they would be to a (mythical) unbiased observer?<br /><br /><i>Plus, in general I find it more logical to believe in a God than not</i><br /><br />That is much more reasonable than OJ in particular. I can accept that some unbiased people believe that.<br /><br /><i>and from what I do know of various religions (and I understand that assuming there has to be a religion is baseless from a zero point), Judaism holds more sway</i><br /><br />That is much more debatable.<br /><br /><i>And within Judaism, I don't know that anyone would argue the idea that Orthodoxy is most compelling.</i><br /><br />And THAT is ludicrous, depending on what you mean by "compelling". Some other denominations (Reform, Reconstructionist) don't require you to believe things which appear to be false.<br /><br /><i>But honestly, I will not get into a discussion of this on my blog, period.</i><br /><br />Yeah, you won't, Gil Student won't, the Rational Rabbi won't, no OJ will at all unless he's a crazy person or a Discovery-type hack. I think that's very telling -- all of you seem to be some or all of the following:<br /><br />1) Not confident that you can justify your beliefs.<br />2) Worried about social shunning if you say what you really believe.<br />3) Embarrassed at how hacky some of the rationalizations will sound. (E.g. getting into detail about how many Jews left Egypt, how the various anachronisms came to be in the chumash, etc.)<br /><br /><i>It's not what the blog is here for</i><br /><br />That's fine and you're obviously under no obligation. My point is just that there is NOBODY willing to do it on record who is not obviously (even to an OJ like you) a hack (Discovery) or a crazy person (JP, Nate.)Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-28420155112725078872011-04-15T01:12:54.109-04:002011-04-15T01:12:54.109-04:00When I saw the title I thought it would be about s...<i>When I saw the title I thought it would be about so-called orthodox Jews who cheat, lie, or engage in illegal activities... Now there's an article waiting to be written.</i><br /><br /><a href="http://serandez.blogspot.com/p/honesty-and-jewish-community.html" rel="nofollow">In process! </a>Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-988038325613061502011-04-15T01:12:14.894-04:002011-04-15T01:12:14.894-04:00I would love to take 20 random Orthodox rabbis who...<i>I would love to take 20 random Orthodox rabbis who specialize in "Bible study," hook them up to a polygraph (or a brain scan that works better) and ask them if they really believe Moshe wrote Deuteronomy.</i><br /><br />Heh.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-32739415140656010882011-04-15T01:11:41.594-04:002011-04-15T01:11:41.594-04:00Like whom? Don't forget the strong emotional a...<i>Like whom? Don't forget the strong emotional attachment to many cherished beliefs. It is a profound thing to be sung "Torah tziva lanu" to from the time you are a baby or a very small child. Or the fact that all or most of the intelligent adults and authority figures in your life believed. You may think you grew out of that as an adult, and can put that aside, but maybe not. There are certainly many people who *so* see the evidence for post-Mosaic authorship of the Torah, but since they can use their imagination very easily marginalize the other arguments. Fine, but that's not real chakira.</i><br /><br />Again, fair points. (I will not list names here for many reasons, most importantly that I doubt they'd wish to be.)<br /><br />Obviously the big point there is that people who one respects who held a belief are going to be difficult to shake. One Rebbe I had (from a well-known family) essentially said as much when I asked him one question: "To be honest, I am not troubled by these questions; I believe because my father believed, and his father believed, and his father. At the end of the day it comes back to emunah anyway - if we could prove God there would be no such thing as free will - and that's what I have (emunah). I am not a person who spends time on these questions." I must admit that I respected his honesty.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-30918730041813782852011-04-15T01:07:41.144-04:002011-04-15T01:07:41.144-04:00JA and S. - Thanks for the replies re: estimates. ...JA and S. - Thanks for the replies re: estimates. Obviously it's hard to define and guesstimate, but I did mean the traditional basic core of God + Moshe/Torah about 3,300 years ago. It sounds like from what you are both willing to guess (which certainly S. at least is not guessing much), you'd say most people do believe in the traditional base but it's possible if not likely that there's a surprising amount of Rabbonim (at least in some circles) who do not. Interesting.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-76701588595476725662011-04-15T01:04:56.925-04:002011-04-15T01:04:56.925-04:00We're not asking for anything close to provabl...<i>We're not asking for anything close to provable. Even "reasonable" would do. </i><br /><br />I don't think that is quite true.<br /><br /><i>Well, it'd be easy to prove! Just show one! If you just suspect that there might be some good answers out there, then say you suspect that. Don't go around saying there are good answers when you can't even point to one.<br /><br />The kuzari proof seems like the most reasonable of the whole bunch and even that is clearly apologetic rationalization. Do you have a better argument?</i><br /><br />Me? Or in general?<br /><br /><i>So here's another point. You clearly aren't including yourself in that group of scholars who know enough to know the answers. That means you don't have them. That means that you believe despite not having the answers, even after you've read many of the questions and challenges. So you must be relying on pure faith. Why do you assume others aren't?</i><br /><br />I've never claimed to be a scholar. I have and have read plenty of questions, but nothing that I find more compelling than the flip side. (Add'l point: I do not rely on faith alone or even heavily, though obviously at some point faith comes into play to an extent.) Plus, in general I find it more logical to believe in a God than not, and from what I do know of various religions (and I understand that assuming there has to be a religion is baseless from a zero point), Judaism holds more sway (and not IMO because I was born that way, though obviously I know it better). And within Judaism, I don't know that anyone would argue the idea that Orthodoxy is most compelling. Obviously this isn't a perfect set of arguments for a variety of reasons, but I'm oversimplifying since you asked. But honestly, I will not get into a discussion of this on my blog, period. It's not what the blog is here for, and why I have never to my recollection had a discussion of specific arguments. I have no interest in having such a discussion in a public forum.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-74012129362202083392011-04-15T00:15:11.996-04:002011-04-15T00:15:11.996-04:00When I saw the title I thought it would be about s...When I saw the title I thought it would be about so-called orthodox Jews who cheat, lie, or engage in illegal activities... Now <i>there's</i> an article waiting to be written.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-11784428788399849972011-04-14T18:15:56.347-04:002011-04-14T18:15:56.347-04:00I would love to take 20 random Orthodox rabbis who...I would love to take 20 random Orthodox rabbis who specialize in "Bible study," hook them up to a polygraph (or a brain scan that works better) and ask them if they really believe Moshe wrote Deuteronomy.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-62437839111030999212011-04-14T18:15:03.941-04:002011-04-14T18:15:03.941-04:00>Right, which is dishonest. That's why I wr...>Right, which is dishonest. That's why I wrote in the original post that the most troubling part is the dishonesty aspect. An OP who is honest about their beliefs obviously may run into trouble with their marriage; but that means they may very easily choose to act selfishly in terms of keeping their marriage intact but live dishonestly. It's rough, obviously.<br /><br />I still think every situation requires its own evaluation. Living a lie may not just benefit the OP, but also his family, who know don't have to (a) pretend he is not their child or sibling in an attempt not to ruin the shidduch prospects of other family members, even though it still will; (b) divorce him (perhaps needlessly), and explain publicly how she married a kofer (it will most certainly come out); (c) share custody of children with a person whom you believe to be untrustworthy scum (even though he could be a committed OPer).<br /><br />In short, not everyone is fully mature about these issues, or has really thought about what their reactions would be. <br /><br />As for Eli, yeah, that's rough. If only there was some secret OP shidduch service.Vox Populihttp://blox-populi.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-46366294643745750552011-04-14T18:06:57.147-04:002011-04-14T18:06:57.147-04:00>There are certainly many people who *so* see t...>There are certainly many people who *so* see the evidence<br /><br />Should say "who *do* see the evidence"S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-43998076422671834732011-04-14T18:04:23.529-04:002011-04-14T18:04:23.529-04:00>(Again curious what others - S., JA, whomever ...>(Again curious what others - S., JA, whomever - think about this one.)<br /><br />Not only do I have no way of estimating, I also don't know what we're talking about. Things that may be basic in certain segements, say, the sanctity and authenticity of the Zohar, are probably regularly doubted in the intellectual elite of MOx (the non-Centrist wing, because they only think about halacha). But that the Torah is really 3300 year old and written by Moshe? I don't know. I'm sure there are some who don't believe that in various ways (from flat out not believing it to some sort of vague non-answers) to those, probably most, who believe it pretty traditionally.<br /><br />It all depends what you mean by "don't believe." Someone who considers himself very Maimonidean and slips into Deism may consider himself definitely a believer, whereas mainstream Orthodoxy could never consider that person a believer if they knew what they really believed. But why would such a person not be able to be a rabbi? <br /><br />>Agreed; however, there are certainly many people (at least in my experiences) who at least appear to be people who do true inquiries and not predetermined analysis, or at the very least approach it in a completely unbiased fashion even if they themselves may choose to believe regardless of the conclusion.<br /><br />Like whom? Don't forget the strong emotional attachment to many cherished beliefs. It is a profound thing to be sung "Torah tziva lanu" to from the time you are a baby or a very small child. Or the fact that all or most of the intelligent adults and authority figures in your life believed. You may think you grew out of that as an adult, and can put that aside, but maybe not. There are certainly many people who *so* see the evidence for post-Mosaic authorship of the Torah, but since they can use their imagination very easily marginalize the other arguments. Fine, but that's not real chakira.<br /><br />>Fair enough; I do think that the numbers won't be as high as some expect, either.<br /><br />Maybe - I don't know what anyone expects. I certainly have no idea.<br /><br />>Heh - very much agreed. It's part of why I don't believe the numbers are as large; I think we'd have a greater sense of it. But I don't read nearly as much as y'all, so I could be wrong.<br /><br />I, on the other hand, see loads of it in Torah journals like Yeshurun. Everyone wants to flaunt how much maskilishe stuff they read (maybe because it shows how elite you think you are). You think it makes no rosham? I doubt it.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-8056286555799906062011-04-14T17:58:46.999-04:002011-04-14T17:58:46.999-04:00Woah. OK, I will come back to this later. I can...Woah. OK, I will come back to this later. I can't keep up with all the replies at once and still do other stuff here! :) <br /><br />HH - Hehe.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-34161551408452141792011-04-14T17:53:03.707-04:002011-04-14T17:53:03.707-04:00Ezzie, JA and S in one room. Always a great debate...Ezzie, JA and S in one room. Always a great debate.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-31034631572599465292011-04-14T17:52:37.458-04:002011-04-14T17:52:37.458-04:00Again curious what others - S., JA, whomever - thi...<i>Again curious what others - S., JA, whomever - think about this one.)</i><br /><br />I'd really just be guessing or extrapolated based on the people I know who are obviously an unrepresentative sample. I'd guess that 50% is way too high for YU and probably too high even for MO people in general. That's because most people don't bother thinking about these things. I do think that if you really press them, many will admit that they don't necessarily believe in this or that, including ikkarim, but they don't think of themselves as Orthoprax.<br /><br />I suspect (without evidence) that the number of Orthoprax rabbis is higher than you might guess, though. These people are smart and educated and have enormous disincentives to "come out." They might even think it's good for the masses to believe even if it's not true.<br /><br />I think S. has a good point about Rabbis who admit to reading X or Y. I'm thinking of one really brilliant (non-pulpit) rabbi I know from my old community who really really really teetered on the line of kefirah in public and kind of made a game of it. People used to joke about it. I'd bet serious money he's Orthoprax.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-30049952850805367842011-04-14T17:50:40.494-04:002011-04-14T17:50:40.494-04:00Fair enough, which ironically, provides all the mo...<i>Fair enough, which ironically, provides all the more incentive to the fledgling OPer to keep it secret, at least for a few years. In fact, it might be better to keep it secret. If one reveals his OP-ish mindset, it opens all of his actions, both in the past and prospectively, to suspicion. Did he really get his suit checked for shatnez? Did he turn the bathroom light on/off on shabbos? Did he really do bitul chametz? And those are concrete actions. Imagine trying to determine if your spouse's new-found heresy is affecting his perceived level of enthusiasm in any real way. It could be a nightmare. I might suggest keeping it secret until both are too emotionally invested in the relationship to quit.</i><br /><br />Right, which is dishonest. That's why I wrote in the original post that the most troubling part is the dishonesty aspect. An OP who is honest about their beliefs obviously may run into trouble with their marriage; but that means they may very easily choose to act selfishly in terms of keeping their marriage intact but live dishonestly. It's rough, obviously.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-83250854329522723882011-04-14T17:50:33.494-04:002011-04-14T17:50:33.494-04:00>That said, I would imagine they became OP late...>That said, I would imagine they became OP later on; it would strike me as strange if not seriously dishonest if someone would pursue a Rabbinate position or similar knowing they don't believe, unless to cause trouble. Most of all, I would expect them to not be particularly interested at that age and in that world where there are less expectations in certain areas and greater acceptance of differing paths in life.<br /><br />Not sure. I think the seeds of kefirah could be planted early on, and they can germinate more fully down the road. I don't think someone hears the DH and then goes OTD from there. He may just find it very interesting (or very stupid), but as he goes through semicha and life, he will continue to interact with these issues, and eventually his belief can be eroded with time. If you have a background in law, shas and poskim can seem a lot less remarkable than they once did. Similarly, if you've learned Bible academically, some parshanut you hear can strike you as silly, and the more of that you hear, the more it irritates.Vox Populihttp://blox-populi.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-88333901399930208532011-04-14T17:46:14.982-04:002011-04-14T17:46:14.982-04:00It's not a representative sample, but I was tr...<i>It's not a representative sample, but I was trying to say that I am pretty sure NO ONE within frum society expected that there is so much skepticism and cynicism about everything from Aleph to Tav that are just basic assumptions in Orthodoxy. True, we still have no numbers - but it's more than anyone realized, that I am certain of.</i><br /><br />Fair enough; I do think that the numbers won't be as high as some expect, either.<br /><br /><i>Of course it all gets into what is deviance and heresy. In some frum circles it is very normal and healthy and pious to be a Zionist. In others it's complete kefira. I think we have to talk about everyone by the standards of their own circle or sect. </i><br /><br />True.<br /><br /><i>By the way, you can often get a hint in what a rabbi who publishes may or may not think about controversial matters by what he admits to reading. If you think a yeshivish rabbi who reads academic Jewish studies remains totally uninfluenced by it, I think you are mistaken. And there's a certain type of rabbi who reads it and even flaunts it (often in a veiled sort of way) in their writings.</i><br /><br />Heh - very much agreed. It's part of why I don't believe the numbers are as large; I think we'd have a greater sense of it. But I don't read nearly as much as y'all, so I could be wrong.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-89755486134344826582011-04-14T17:44:32.773-04:002011-04-14T17:44:32.773-04:00Of course at some point we're going to come do...<i>Of course at some point we're going to come down to a question of faith - if God were truly provable, life would be a whole lot easier (or not).</i><br /><br />We're not asking for anything close to provable. Even "reasonable" would do. <br /><br /><i>And I would venture that there are people who would argue (reasonably) that much of what is questioned IS discussed in various seforim, responsa, etc.</i><br /><br />Well, it'd be easy to prove! Just show one! If you just suspect that there might be some good answers out there, then say you suspect that. Don't go around saying there are good answers when you can't even point to one.<br /><br /><i>You can dismiss it as apologetics, but that doesn't mean you're correct.</i><br /><br />The kuzari proof seems like the most reasonable of the whole bunch and even that is clearly apologetic rationalization. Do you have a better argument?<br /><br />So here's another point. You clearly aren't including yourself in that group of scholars who know enough to know the answers. That means you don't have them. That means that you believe despite not having the answers, even after you've read many of the questions and challenges. So you must be relying on pure faith. Why do you assume others aren't?Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-73795060273564242932011-04-14T17:43:56.846-04:002011-04-14T17:43:56.846-04:00I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is...<i>I'm not saying it can't be done, but it isn't always done. And many of the chakira mindset absolutely do not conduct a real free inquiry (meaning that a basic outcome isn't already predetermined). Which is fine, but then these people aren't models for an examination of the faith or an assurance that qualified people have successfully done the examining for you.</i><br /><br />Agreed; however, there are certainly many people (at least in my experiences) who at least appear to be people who do true inquiries and not predetermined analysis, or at the very least approach it in a completely unbiased fashion even if they themselves may choose to believe regardless of the conclusion.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-39716656672638968912011-04-14T17:43:23.614-04:002011-04-14T17:43:23.614-04:00>It could be very difficult for a spouse to rea...>It could be very difficult for a spouse to really accept that, and a genuine (and IMO not unreasonable) concern would be that since the OP views Judaism as untrue, that it would impact their daily life - either openly as time goes on or in secret.<br /><br />Fair enough, which ironically, provides all the more incentive to the fledgling OPer to keep it secret, at least for a few years. In fact, it might be better to keep it secret. If one reveals his OP-ish mindset, it opens all of his actions, both in the past and prospectively, to suspicion. Did he really get his suit checked for shatnez? Did he turn the bathroom light on/off on shabbos? Did he really do bitul chametz? And those are concrete actions. Imagine trying to determine if your spouse's new-found heresy is affecting his perceived level of enthusiasm in any real way. It could be a nightmare. I might suggest keeping it secret until both are too emotionally invested in the relationship to quit.Vox Populihttp://blox-populi.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-63909464936752416232011-04-14T17:41:49.930-04:002011-04-14T17:41:49.930-04:00I think there are a lot more than commonly assumed...<i>I think there are a lot more than commonly assumed. XGH estimates that upwards of 50% of MOs are OP. I don't know if this is true; all I can speak for is my community. A significant number of YU guys are OP. These are the hamon am.<br /><br />It's probably much more common in MO communities for Rabbis to be OP; they have degrees, and at least the rudiments of a scientific education. Many of them have probably taken courses in philosophy and have been required to take Bible, where the DH is always discussed (in varying degrees of respect, to be sure). They also tend to be more educated in Jewish history, and aware that all sorts of beliefs we today consider heresies were once widely tolerated. They are also far more likely to have secular and agnostic friends, and even friends from other religions.</i><br /><br />As surprised as most people are by this, I've never really been all that intertwined with the MO/YU worlds. Based on people I do know, I would be very surprised if it came close to 50%. I think many don't believe in or don't care much for a lot of what was passed on down, but at the end of the day they believe in God, Moshe, etc. <br /><br />(Again curious what others - S., JA, whomever - think about this one.)<br /><br />I'd be surprised to find more than a handful of OP rabbis as well, and agree it would be more likely in the MO world for the reasons you stated. That said, I would imagine they became OP later on; it would strike me as strange if not seriously dishonest if someone would pursue a Rabbinate position or similar knowing they don't believe, unless to cause trouble. Most of all, I would expect them to not be particularly interested at that age and in that world where there are less expectations in certain areas and greater acceptance of differing paths in life.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-63580384921150650932011-04-14T17:37:01.457-04:002011-04-14T17:37:01.457-04:00Ezzie, you're just proving my point here. Firs...<i>Ezzie, you're just proving my point here. First you say that there are honest, intellectual answers, but ultimately you just accuse OTDers of not being knowledgeable enough, making excuses for why none of these honest, intellectual answers ever show up on the internet (or anywhere else), and you even admit that at some point it comes down to faith. QED.<br /><br />I mean that's fine for what it is, just admit it from the start. There are no good answers for normal people, but if you have faith you can believe. I think all OTDers can agree with that -- we're just more interested in what seems true than in having faith. </i><br /><br />No, you're misunderstanding me by associating what I write with standard answers from others.<br /><br />Of course at some point we're going to come down to a question of faith - if God were truly provable, life would be a whole lot easier (or not). That doesn't mean that there aren't answers or discussions regarding much of whatever else is worth discussing. <br /><br />I'm not "accusing" people who go OTD of not knowing enough, but certainly you can't claim to have a very strong knowledge of Torah any more than I could of anything I haven't learned or read. <br /><br />And I would venture that there are people who would argue (reasonably) that much of what is questioned IS discussed in various seforim, responsa, etc. You can dismiss it as apologetics, but that doesn't mean you're correct.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-13584584377233330832011-04-14T17:31:46.738-04:002011-04-14T17:31:46.738-04:00It might be helpful to put it this way. Before mar...<i>It might be helpful to put it this way. Before marriage, say in the pre-dating or dating stage, I think what you're saying is much more important. I would probably not date a charedi or a militant republican, for example. If we have different values, I might see little point in pursuing it further, or in expending more resources when there are other fish in the sea.<br /><br />However, after you get married, raise a family, etc. the theological beliefs you share should probably diminish in importance in how integral they are to the marriage. What we've done after marriage should be much more important. We've shared a life together, raised children, laughed, cried, argued, etc. Our original points of commonality, while they may have been important at the early stages of our courtship, should be somewhat supplanted. I'm not saying the whole relationship will change, but I'm sure most people say their marriage five or ten years down the road is fundamentally different than the relationship they envisioned on day one of sheva brachos, or the second date. And that's a good thing! It's probably a richer, much more substantial relationship.</i><br /><br />Agreed completely with these points.<br /><br /><i>I think if a spouse has changed his or her theological beliefs after marriage but remains committed to performing all the mitzvos and raising his children in orthodoxy, I would be very skeptical of the utility of breaking up a marriage.<br /><br />I think in most cases, divorce does not occur. But I have no way of knowing this. The Aharon Gutberg marriage from Ami seems to have been in trouble before all this came out, for what it's worth.<br /><br />Additionally, my understanding is that many of the famous J-blogge kofrim are still married, and honest with their spouses, but I may be wrong.</i><br /><br />I don't know about the J-blogger kofrim, and obviously have no clue to what extent they really are; what they've been open/honest about; what stage of life they're in; etc. Obviously the later in life it is, and the stronger the marriage otherwise, the easier it would be to just 'go with it' at that point. I think the more difficult situation is pre-children for certain, or even when children are little. It could be very difficult for a spouse to really accept that, and a genuine (and IMO not unreasonable) concern would be that since the OP views Judaism as untrue, that it would impact their daily life - either openly as time goes on or in secret. (There was actually a horrible Ethics column in I believe The New Yorker with a similar situation about two years ago.)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-68165010166080486272011-04-14T17:30:02.630-04:002011-04-14T17:30:02.630-04:00>I especially don't know that the blogs are...>I especially don't know that the blogs are much of a proof; I'd always assumed there was at least a decent amount, and I don't know that blogs are just a representative sample but rather an over-representative one, since anyone searching for similar people will find them rather quickly.<br /><br />It's not a representative sample, but I was trying to say that I am pretty sure NO ONE within frum society expected that there is so much skepticism and cynicism about everything from Aleph to Tav that are just basic assumptions in Orthodoxy. True, we still have no numbers - but it's more than anyone realized, that I am certain of.<br /><br />Of course it all gets into what is deviance and heresy. In some frum circles it is very normal and healthy and pious to be a Zionist. In others it's complete kefira. I think we have to talk about everyone by the standards of their own circle or sect. <br /><br />By the way, you can often get a hint in what a rabbi who publishes may or may not think about controversial matters by what he admits to reading. If you think a yeshivish rabbi who reads academic Jewish studies remains totally uninfluenced by it, I think you are mistaken. And there's a certain type of rabbi who reads it and even flaunts it (often in a veiled sort of way) in their writings.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com