tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post114705159194589492..comments2024-03-02T03:29:09.759-05:00Comments on SerandEz and Friends: To Shake Or NotEzziehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147196811106334232006-05-09T13:46:00.000-04:002006-05-09T13:46:00.000-04:00me and OC agree on something? wowme and OC agree on something? wowMenachemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004653257118451525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147194134627878962006-05-09T13:02:00.000-04:002006-05-09T13:02:00.000-04:00But that's my point. This action was, IMO, *not* p...But that's my point. This action was, IMO, *not* part of the military world, and does not affect the discipline of the army. The whole point of this post was exactly that - he was careful to seperate the military aspects from the civilian.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147169798612390262006-05-09T06:16:00.000-04:002006-05-09T06:16:00.000-04:00Ezzie, I'm sorry to say this, and please do not ta...Ezzie, I'm sorry to say this, and please do not take offense to this. If you do, I apologize ahead of time, but the fact that you're leaning to "no" on whether this soldier deserves any punishment at all illustrates your lack of understanding of the military structure, what its role is, and how crucial discipline is to sustaining its very foundation. <BR/><BR/>When something is done in "bad taste" (if that's what you want to call it) in the civilian world, nothing happens. Who cares? You might get chastized, but nothing more. In the military, "bad taste" dangers the foundation and disciplinary structure. Soldiers who do things in "bad taste" are punished. A couple of years ago, soldiers who were on duty patrolling a Palestinian town decided to play a prank and switched the prayer tape for the mosque loud speaker with some Jewish music. This is something that one can consider being done in "bad taste". No-one was injured, and they didn't really do anything wrong. But, they were severely punished. If you forget your briefcase or leave your papers hanging around the floor, nothing happens. In the Army, if you leave your gun on the floor, you're put on trial. <BR/><BR/>Military does not equal civilian world. A solider does something even in "bad taste", he's punished. Plain and simple. <BR/>-OCOlah Chadashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944285441651551482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147145287482571232006-05-08T23:28:00.000-04:002006-05-08T23:28:00.000-04:00Good Q, Charlie. Then again, standing up for one's...Good Q, Charlie. Then again, standing up for one's beliefs no matter how small a minority would likely be the response.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147143235277812602006-05-08T22:53:00.000-04:002006-05-08T22:53:00.000-04:00'If he was protesting the Army over the Disengagem...'If he was protesting the Army over the Disengagement, why allow himself to accept an award from said Army?'<BR/><BR/>I had wondered this myself.<BR/><BR/>The national religious community in Israel has gotten almost everything it has wanted for almost the entire history of the country: Funding for the state religious school system, Orthodox rabbinic monopoly on marriages and divorces, massive investment (a.k.a. subsidies) in settlements beyond the Green Line despite little interest in them from the secular public, kosher food in the army, enforcement of sabbath laws, the hesder yeshiva program, etc., etc. That despite never having received more than about 12 seats in the Knesset. In no other democratic country could such a small minority have such great influence. Occasionally, in a democracy, one loses. Yes, this is a big loss, but why did the NU/NRP continue the sorry performance of Religious Zionist parties this year? Wouldn't it make more sense to invest in a lot more outreach to the rest of Israel's citizens than to engage in meaningless protests like this?Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147128267855932102006-05-08T18:44:00.001-04:002006-05-08T18:44:00.001-04:00Wrong = in bad taste.Wrong = in bad taste.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147128247479406312006-05-08T18:44:00.000-04:002006-05-08T18:44:00.000-04:00OC - True. I think we basically agree: This punish...OC - True. I think we basically agree: This punishment was not warranted, but what he did was wrong. Should there be any punishment? I'm leaning to "No", but y'all are saying "Yes". But in the grand scheme we basically agree.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147126046068594372006-05-08T18:07:00.000-04:002006-05-08T18:07:00.000-04:00Ez, but you're qualifying your statement. You're s...Ez, but you're qualifying your statement. You're saying that the punishment was not warranted, <I>if</I> any punishment was warranted at all. The point Menachem and myself are trying to make is that what he did was wrong, and it goes against the foundations of what the Army represents. Therefore, punishment is warranted, just <I>not</I> the one given. This soldier cannot be let off scott-free. If he is, then he will set an extremely dangerous precedent for the future.<BR/>-OCOlah Chadashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944285441651551482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147114130833860782006-05-08T14:48:00.000-04:002006-05-08T14:48:00.000-04:00Menachem - Yes, and I acknowledged all of those po...Menachem - Yes, and I acknowledged all of those points; nevertheless, the conclusion (to me) is still that the punishment was unwarranted.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147113093723042072006-05-08T14:31:00.000-04:002006-05-08T14:31:00.000-04:00you're looking at it the wrong way. his punishment...you're looking at it the wrong way. his punishment wasn't for simply refusing to shake dan halutz's hand.<BR/><BR/>in the army, personal feelings must be put aside for the greater good. many of the soldiers involved in the disengagement were personally against it, but they took part anyways, because that's the way the army works.<BR/><BR/>by refusing to shake dan halutz's hand, the soldier held him personally responsible for the actions he took as chief of staff. Dan Halutz may or may not be a leftist, but the actions he takes as cheif of staff do not reflect that. Dayan, by refusing to shake halutz's hand, undermined the very foundations that the army rests upon; the obligation to follow orders, regardless of personal beliefs.<BR/><BR/>on top of all of this, you have the insult to the chief of staff, in a very public ceremony. you may be right, it's not enough to warrant his punishment, maybe, but it's just the icing on the cake.<BR/><BR/>jameel: the IDF is not a democratic institution. we do not elect our commanders, and there is no freedom of speech. if a soldier wants to protest, he can vote for a party that will support his policies. soldiers may not make any political statements, including talking to the press, putting political slogans on his gear, or refusing to shake the chief of staff's hand to protest a certain policy.Menachemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004653257118451525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147112618365269792006-05-08T14:23:00.000-04:002006-05-08T14:23:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Menachemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004653257118451525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147102622648546722006-05-08T11:37:00.000-04:002006-05-08T11:37:00.000-04:00OC - I agree that what he did was in poor taste wi...OC - I agree that what he did was in poor taste with Nephtuli, but I still think that the first point (that it's not protocol) makes the punishment too severe, if he should be punished at all.<BR/><BR/>Jameel - What OC said.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147097440767670342006-05-08T10:10:00.000-04:002006-05-08T10:10:00.000-04:00jameel, c'mon. Now, that's also blowing things out...jameel, c'mon. Now, that's also blowing things out of proportion. They're doing this as a mini-Amona, ya know? This is political. They used him as an example to show that this kind of "behavior" won't be tolerated. They're doing it all wrong, and it seems to be part of the bigger picture with what's happened in periphery to the Disengagement. You know what I mean? This is a symptom of a bigger problem as westbankmama so astutely pointed out. And, one thing is for damn sure. It's going to get worse before it gets better. <BR/>-OCOlah Chadashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944285441651551482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147094689934492722006-05-08T09:24:00.000-04:002006-05-08T09:24:00.000-04:00By the IDF making such a big deal out of this, it ...By the IDF making such a big deal out of this, it shows you that the IDF isn't such a strong army after all.<BR/><BR/>When a democracy or "powerful" instituion has to crush its opposition using tactics like this, it shows that it's democratic essense is rather weak.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147086049427943252006-05-08T07:00:00.000-04:002006-05-08T07:00:00.000-04:00Ez, you are right in the sense that, technically, ...Ez, you are right in the sense that, technically, this soldier didn't do anything wrong by not shaking Halutz's hand. If he had not saluted, it would have definitely violated military protocol, but there is no such mandates for shaking hands. That actually doesn't exist in military protocol. However, I also agree with Naphtuli. If he was protesting the Army over the Disengagement, why allow himself to accept an award from said Army? If he had done this, it wouldn't have been public, and the Army would have just given it to the next best. This minor not shaking of the General's hand was deliberate in its public display, and he should be punished for it.<BR/><BR/>However, releaving him of his post falls way out of the spectrum of what he did wrong. Give him 20 days in the brig or extra Shmira on base or no going home for a couple of months. But, kicking him out of his post? Rediculous and way out of proportion. All the Army is doing now is making this kid into some kind of hero, which is the exact antithesis of what the Army wants to do. The last thing this guy should be made to be is a hero for the Orange.<BR/>-OCOlah Chadashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944285441651551482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147074858564975412006-05-08T03:54:00.000-04:002006-05-08T03:54:00.000-04:00WBM - That's a very interesting perspective, and I...WBM - That's a very interesting perspective, and I hadn't really thought of it that way. Thank you.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147074724049313292006-05-08T03:52:00.000-04:002006-05-08T03:52:00.000-04:00His specific action shows just how deeply the feel...His specific action shows just how deeply the feelings run here in Israel, and how conflicted those of us in the dati-leumi world are now. He stayed in the army, and performed so well that he received an award. He followed military protocol and saluted - but he couldn't bring himself to shake Halutz's hand. How the army reacts (or overreacts) is not really the point. What this country will do in the future to repair this rift is the question. Olmert's insistence on more unilateral withdrawals will only worsen the situation.westbankmamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07175250198028829889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147069588573760122006-05-08T02:26:00.000-04:002006-05-08T02:26:00.000-04:00I think we can both agree that not shaking Halutz'...<I>I think we can both agree that not shaking Halutz's hand was worse than not accepting the prize in terms of public dissent.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>Based on comments from a very small selection of soldiers both at Jewlicious and Ha'aretz, this doesn't sound *so* out of the norm or extreme, which is one reason I think the punishment is.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147067543280874862006-05-08T01:52:00.000-04:002006-05-08T01:52:00.000-04:00I think we can both agree that not shaking Halutz'...I think we can both agree that not shaking Halutz's hand was worse than not accepting the prize in terms of public dissent. That said, the question is how much latitiude the army should give to its soldiers to express their ideals. I'd grant the army great deferrence on this question because I am not qualified to make the determination. But I can see the argument that the army overreacted.Nephtulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00245081159460337112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147056385250659452006-05-07T22:46:00.000-04:002006-05-07T22:46:00.000-04:00Heh. :)Heh. :)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147055432711020432006-05-07T22:30:00.000-04:002006-05-07T22:30:00.000-04:00I thought this was a Lulav and esrog hypothetical....I thought this was a Lulav and esrog hypothetical......DAGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09475799835170867139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147054746777601682006-05-07T22:19:00.000-04:002006-05-07T22:19:00.000-04:00Interesting point, but again I disagree. I don't t...Interesting point, but again I disagree. I don't think it's wrong to show dissent, only lack of military discipline. If a soldier disagrees in the field, he should say as much; this is a far less serious example of doing so. Again, he's still following proper military protocol, and because of that I don't think he should be removed from his unit.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13326001.post-1147053135586477372006-05-07T21:52:00.000-04:002006-05-07T21:52:00.000-04:00Ezzie,I disagree. If he wanted to protest, he coul...Ezzie,<BR/><BR/>I disagree. If he wanted to protest, he could have refused to accept the reward and not shown up at the cerimony in the first place. Assuming handshaking is not mandatory, refusing to shake Halutz's hand is a problem because it publically shows dissent. And that's a bad thing for the army. Not accepting an award looks better.Nephtulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00245081159460337112noreply@blogger.com